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Injury Thread - Kopitar (Out for Season), Williams (Out 4 weeks), Parse (Day to Day)

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Old
03-30-2011, 01:28 AM
  #376
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
"Warm weather, Clippers game the night before and the rush to get the set up right and there you go".

I don't blame our ice crew as much as I do several other things. I had asked a few questions of Tim L while the Staples Center was being built regarding a concern of mine on how well the building would be able to maintain a temperature that would be conducive to remaining in line with NHL standards game ready condition and he assured everyone present at the time that the building was designed specifically to do so.

I asked around and everyone agreed that the building itself was designed with the sheet in mind and that it was state of the art in that area at the time.

Then I asked about the type and quantity of compressors as well as all the additional equip and was satisfied by the steps that had been taken to maintain the sheet to a high standard.

During a walk through of what was then called HealthSouth about two months before it was open to the public I spent a couple of hours with one of the lead engineers responsible for determining all of he requirements to maintain the two sheets of ice and was blown away by how many factors went into the design.

Remember that todays *ice* isn't simple frozen water and getting that chemical mix perfect is both a science and an art and while our ice sheet at the Staples Center has been deemed as average to good by certain league officials that it is actually a small miracle that the quality is as good as it is.

The people responsible for maintaining our sheet has done a good enough job to where they have been allowed to do so since 2004 in a very highly competitive field.

Everything seems to be perfect right?

I don't know.

I would question two things and remember that these are questions, I am not saying that anyone has done anything other than the absolute best possible job at the very highest level possible in every aspect of providing the team with the best possible sheet of ice to play on night in and night out.

My first question would be regarding the compressors and all ancillary equipment and their ability to work with the increasingly intricate mixes of materials that make up our sheet of "ice".

My second question would be the amount of time that it takes for these exotic materials to set up perfectly for the best possible ice surface.

The Oilers Ryan Jones said in an Edmonton Journal article this january "You can deal with hard ice that chips. It doesn't slow you down too much. Anaheim and L.A.? It's so humid and hot, the ice just gets soft."

Soft ice has been considered to be the single most dangerous element to ice skaters forever and the comment made by Jones is one that we have heard before.

I wouldn't consider Jones an expert on what it takes to make the perfect ice surface though you have to at least consider his opinion.

I spoke with an official at Beck Arena Products inc. about the new and synthetic materials used in making todays NHL ice rink and was told that it all depends on the specific mix that each sheet of ice is comprised of but he did say that in warmer climates the expense of maintaining a sheet of ice to a very high standard would be exceptionally expensive.

He went on to say that while it is all up to each individual arena, how hard they want the ice surface and how much set up time that they have and need.

He told me that it is possible to mix a synthetic (what he refers to as a standard) sheet of ice in a few hours that would be considered a very high quality sheet. I asked him if it would be up to NHL standards and he told me it depended on how much money I had to spend.

In the end he told me to take a look at the ice quality of this years NHL outdoor games. No expenses were spared in the building of those sheets of ice and yet they had their problems due to the variables caused by the weather. He then said pretty much the same thing that Ryan Jones said about the ice in Los Angeles and Anaheim "humidity and hot weather plays havoc on an arena's ability to keep the ice hard".

I asked several more people both players and a couple of other people involved with ice maintenance and all of them pretty much said the same thing in that the ice is only going to be as good as the arena it is in, the people responsible for keeping it, the equipment that is used and the weather outside the building.

So where does the blame rest?

To me it seems to be one of those cases where there is enough to go around for everyone.

The people who schedule a ridiculous Clipper game the night before the Kings play get me riled but really, most every arena runs a similar schedule so they aren't to blame.

Our ice maintenance crew do the best job possible but can only work with what they have and from what I have heard do an exceptional job.

The building was built to state of the art standards and the Kings where given every consideration in its design.

In the end do you blame the weather? Was it particularly warm when Kopi got injured and if so, should we place the blame there?

I don't have any concrete answers but I can say that this is how it goes in today's mega arena world.
We want the best for the Kings. Laker and Clipper fans want the best for them and so on and so on.

If you ask the blackhawks why they think that they had so many hip injuries some might tell you that their ice was really bad and the same thing was being said in Edmonton, once thought to be the greatest ice on earth they blamed their run of ankle injuries on their dated compressors.

Its the same all over.
Why does the temperature outside the arena matter so much? This is not an outdoor rink. If the ice is sift because it's too hot, then turn down the temperature in the arena.

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03-30-2011, 01:29 AM
  #377
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Originally Posted by likid View Post
Also wanted to post this. Kopitar himself confirm, that he broke his fibula (actualy he said, he broke his leg, but in Slovenian language this can have general meaning, when you break any bone in your leg) and the cause was a hole in the ice where he stuck his skate and couldn't move his leg, when he was falling.
Thanks

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03-30-2011, 01:43 AM
  #378
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Great post Tonellisghost.

The humidity part doesn't really make sense to me though. SoCal is a desert after all. Is it really on average more humid than elsewhere? Or it is the humidity from the fans? SoCal fans are more humid than elsewhere? I don't understand. And there are ways to remove moisture from air in enclosed spaces if humidity is really an issue.

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03-30-2011, 01:50 AM
  #379
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonSwanson View Post
Why does the temperature outside the arena matter so much? This is not an outdoor rink. If the ice is sift because it's too hot, then turn down the temperature in the arena.
The outdoor temp matters because the temp inside the building can only be so low, can't have fans freezing their butts off.

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03-30-2011, 01:51 AM
  #380
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This ordeal sure makes me appreciate Kopi alot more. He spoiled us for so many games in a row, it's just weird to watch a game and not have him out there. I miss him.

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03-30-2011, 01:56 AM
  #381
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Originally Posted by winning View Post
Great post Tonellisghost.

The humidity part doesn't really make sense to me though. SoCal is a desert after all. Is it really on average more humid than elsewhere? Or it is the humidity from the fans? SoCal fans are more humid than elsewhere? I don't understand. And there are ways to remove moisture from air in enclosed spaces if humidity is really an issue.
A desert is just defined as anywhere that gets less than an average of 10" of rain per year (like So. Cal).

It's not as humid here as much of the US, and people back east laugh at what we think is humid. However, Los Angeles does average around 80% humidity during the day, and 60% humidity at night. This is due to our proximity to the ocean and sea breezes.

Humidity peaks in the morning when the air is cooler (and can hold less water) and levels off in the afternoon. We don't get a lot of convection (rising hot air) here in So. Cal, so there aren't a whole lot of ways to get rid of the moist air. The Santa Ana winds are very effective at it, but they only blow 2 or 3 times a year.

Or, maybe it's just that the fans are moister.

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03-30-2011, 02:30 AM
  #382
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There is another important factor that determines the quality of ice. Changeovers. Observe the two arenas that are known to have among the worst ice surfaces, Staples Center and Madison Square Garden.

You'd think with so much vested by the owners of the teams that they would have the most qualified engineers and technicians maintaining the ice surfaces at their respective rinks. And they do. However, they can't control the number of activities and changeovers that these buildings undergo.

Every time they switch over to any live performance, concert, basketball game, boxing, wrestling, etc. it is going to severely affect the ice surface. The arenas considered to have the best ice surfaces in the league don't have this problem. The fact that Staples Center is a busy venue is a big reason why the quality of ice is subpar.

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03-30-2011, 02:45 AM
  #383
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Emma,

I'm happy for you even though I'm jealous about the stuff you got.

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03-30-2011, 10:59 AM
  #384
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So strange watching that game last night without Kopitar. I could swear once or twice I saw him out there. Had to rub my eyes.

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03-30-2011, 11:20 AM
  #385
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To those asking about the heat and humidity I can tell you what I was told as I am sort of in the same place as you are as far as understanding the way it works.

The outside temp plus the fans themselves are contributing factors. Every time a fan goes in and out of the arena area they let out cold and let in heat, the hot air inside the arena rises as much as possible creating its own inversion area which develops into humidity.

The hotter it is outside matters more than the actual humidity as it seems that the arena itself (the fans entering and exiting and remaining inside etc) has more to do with developing a humid environment then anything else.


That is an oversimplification of what I was told but its the best I can do.

I should say that last night Bob Miller said that the ice was always good in Edmonton and that is what I had always been told since Edm entered the NHL but, if you ask the Oilers they will tell you that it isn't true.

In that same article mentioned in my post the Oilers say that the compressors are dated and need to be replaced. The Oilers say something to the effect that the ice is about half as good as it used to be but to me, it still sounds like it is better than most of the rest of the NHL arena's.


It is a long road to go to determine rather our ice condition had anything to do with Kopi's injury and I am not certain that I am any closer to knowing if it did or not.

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03-30-2011, 11:33 AM
  #386
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Quote:
The humidity part doesn't really make sense to me though. SoCal is a desert after all. Is it really on average more humid than elsewhere? Or it is the humidity from the fans? SoCal fans are more humid than elsewhere? I don't understand. And there are ways to remove moisture from air in enclosed spaces if humidity is really an issue.

SoCal is NOT a desert. we have a Subtropical-Mediterranean climate... so humidity is a factor.

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03-30-2011, 11:45 AM
  #387
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I don't buy for one second that the ice quality is the reason for the injury. It was a freak injury that could have happened anywhere there is a rut in the ice. Now I'm sure Phoenix has similar issues as LA (although the are the only tenant) in terms of maintaining ice but Williams' injury from last year was nearly identical.

I honestly think the Kings have benefited from the Staples ice surface. Watch the games closely and you'll notice how the Kings players control the puck and are prepared for the puck to bounce off their sticks while handling it and receiving passes. You see other teams trying to make these cute plays and have the pucks jump up on them.

Also, in general basketball has less issues with the climate in the arena but I do remember a basketball game getting canceled in Florida last year because of condensation on the floor.

Edmonton has the benefit of climate and being a single tenant in the building so it would nake sense if they have good ice.

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03-30-2011, 11:49 AM
  #388
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Didn't Kopitar himself say that his skate got caught in a rut that it couldn't get out of and that is what caused his injury? I am asking because I remember reading I think in this thread where he did say so.

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03-30-2011, 12:21 PM
  #389
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Don't you think each NHL arena should have a standard temperature on game days and a set amount of humidity allowed? Seems pretty simple. If the teams don't meet it by the time the game starts they get fined. I don't think a rut or hole caused Kopitars injury though. His leg got caught when he fell, it happens all the time in hockey. I'm surprised none of the rec league players have brought up the fact that ice hockey skates are just way too stiff now. A lot of people have been blaming stiff skates on groin, knee, hip and ankle injuries in the NHL.

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03-30-2011, 12:30 PM
  #390
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
Didn't Kopitar himself say that his skate got caught in a rut that it couldn't get out of and that is what caused his injury? I am asking because I remember reading I think in this thread where he did say so.
Yes, for Slovenian media.

Her is one link again:
http://www.rtvslo.si/sport/hokej/za-...-v-ledu/254173

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03-30-2011, 12:34 PM
  #391
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To the fine idea it sounds interesting. I know that the league is always looking to standardize ice quality and preperation so who knowws.

As to how Kopitar injured his leg here is what I was referring to:

"http://www.rtvslo.si/sport/hokej/za-...-v-ledu/254173

Haven't seen this one posted before...

Longer interview with Kopi. Basically the most interesting part of it is his explanation what caused it... bad ice. He says there was a hole in the ice and his skate got stuck there. $%@~# !!!

Edit: "6-8 weeks" is mentioned also."

As to equipt troubles well, I get my skates from a sponsor for something i did long long ago and I can tell you that the skates that NHL players get aren't the same as over the counter models. When I need or want a new pair of skates I send in my old pair along with any notes that I have about it and it goes from there.

At least once a year I am at the main facilities where my boot is made (for various reasons) and they take imprints of my feet, where my balance points are, how soft or hard I prefer my boot and so on.

I am not saying that the gear couldn't be a contributing factor, just that the ones that the pro's use are vastly different that what is available to your average rec player.

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03-30-2011, 12:36 PM
  #392
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Originally Posted by likid View Post
Yes, for Slovenian media.

Her is one link again:
http://www.rtvslo.si/sport/hokej/za-...-v-ledu/254173
Thanks

I went and found it also but thanks for taking the time to do that.

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03-30-2011, 12:37 PM
  #393
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Originally Posted by Tikkanen View Post
Don't you think each NHL arena should have a standard temperature on game days and a set amount of humidity allowed? Seems pretty simple. If the teams don't meet it by the time the game starts they get fined. I don't think a rut or hole caused Kopitars injury though. His leg got caught when he fell, it happens all the time in hockey. I'm surprised none of the rec league players have brought up the fact that ice hockey skates are just way too stiff now. A lot of people have been blaming stiff skates on groin, knee, hip and ankle injuries in the NHL.
That is why I was saying it could happen anywhere. He basically caught his inside edge while falling backwards. That is just bad luck, not bad ice.

ANd I completely agree on the skates. I went to buy me some new skates a few years ago. I had used my Bauer 3000's thoroughly for years and wanted to replace them. I tried on the Bauer 190's and it felt like I was wearing ski boots. I couldn't even move my ankle. I don't know if people like that or not but I don't and I ended up buying the 170's (the model below) because they weren't as stiff. They were still too stiff for my tastes but I knew they'd breakdown. It took almost a year but they are now at a place where they are very comfortable and by far the best skates I've ever owned. That has more to do with the fact that I accidentally bought EE width which led to me buying a half size smaller than I usually do. All these years I just needed a wider skate and it took until I was 28 years old to discover that.

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03-30-2011, 12:38 PM
  #394
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
I am not saying that the gear couldn't be a contributing factor, just that the ones that the pro's use are vastly different that what is available to your average rec player.
Good point.. I hadn't considered that. I have a friend that has pro stock skates from a collegiate player (I think) and they are different than the stock model.

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03-30-2011, 03:19 PM
  #395
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The temperature in the arena is only partially responsible for the ice conditions.

Cooler air holds less moisture than warmer air. So like TG said, when warm air is let in, it cools because of the air conditioning and all of that moisture comes out in the form of humidity.

The colder you make the air, the more humidity is released; so on a hot day if you dropped the temperature in staples by 10 degrees, you would actually end up with more humidity than if it is warmer. This is the reason all air conditioners are equipped with some kind of dehumidification unit.

For good ice, you would need to have super efficient dehumidification in an area like LA. The air has a lot of moisture as it is and cooling just makes it worse. This isn't always feasible because of very high costs and the fact that the doors are open often. Outside of buying huge dehumidifiers that could quickly circulate a large volume of air, there's only so much that can be done.

One idea would be to put glass/plexiglass sliders on as many entrances to the seating area as possible. If these are closed prior to the game, it would minimize the amount of warm humid air entering. They could be open in times of heavy traffic, but closed the rest of the time. The downside is you need someone to man them, drunk fans and the potential for accidents, and so on. It would be a substantial cost, but would be highly effective.

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03-30-2011, 04:07 PM
  #396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishhead View Post
The temperature in the arena is only partially responsible for the ice conditions.

Cooler air holds less moisture than warmer air. So like TG said, when warm air is let in, it cools because of the air conditioning and all of that moisture comes out in the form of humidity.

The colder you make the air, the more humidity is released; so on a hot day if you dropped the temperature in staples by 10 degrees, you would actually end up with more humidity than if it is warmer. This is the reason all air conditioners are equipped with some kind of dehumidification unit.

For good ice, you would need to have super efficient dehumidification in an area like LA. The air has a lot of moisture as it is and cooling just makes it worse. This isn't always feasible because of very high costs and the fact that the doors are open often. Outside of buying huge dehumidifiers that could quickly circulate a large volume of air, there's only so much that can be done.

One idea would be to put glass/plexiglass sliders on as many entrances to the seating area as possible. If these are closed prior to the game, it would minimize the amount of warm humid air entering. They could be open in times of heavy traffic, but closed the rest of the time. The downside is you need someone to man them, drunk fans and the potential for accidents, and so on. It would be a substantial cost, but would be highly effective.
So it sounds like the solution would be more/better de-humidifiers. Didn't Dallas pour a bunch of money into their arena to get rid of the humidity?

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03-30-2011, 04:32 PM
  #397
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishhead View Post
The temperature in the arena is only partially responsible for the ice conditions.

Cooler air holds less moisture than warmer air. So like TG said, when warm air is let in, it cools because of the air conditioning and all of that moisture comes out in the form of humidity.

The colder you make the air, the more humidity is released; so on a hot day if you dropped the temperature in staples by 10 degrees, you would actually end up with more humidity than if it is warmer. This is the reason all air conditioners are equipped with some kind of dehumidification unit.

For good ice, you would need to have super efficient dehumidification in an area like LA. The air has a lot of moisture as it is and cooling just makes it worse. This isn't always feasible because of very high costs and the fact that the doors are open often. Outside of buying huge dehumidifiers that could quickly circulate a large volume of air, there's only so much that can be done.

One idea would be to put glass/plexiglass sliders on as many entrances to the seating area as possible. If these are closed prior to the game, it would minimize the amount of warm humid air entering. They could be open in times of heavy traffic, but closed the rest of the time. The downside is you need someone to man them, drunk fans and the potential for accidents, and so on. It would be a substantial cost, but would be highly effective.
Maybe some of these bad boys - put them in the tunnels as close to the ice surface as possible, where you already have personnel manning the tunnel exit to the concourses:


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03-30-2011, 04:47 PM
  #398
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Revolving doors at the entrances would work:

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03-30-2011, 05:00 PM
  #399
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A ventilation tunnel barrier with a vacum (like the kind that you see on TV shows when people enter or exit a "clean" area or close to that) has been proposed and considered for the rink where the Preds play but I have no idea what the exact details of the system would be. My understanding is that they are supposed to provide a lay area of clean dehumidified air that would seal at the arena entrance and be somewhat open at the out perimeter of the tunnel.

I know that the cost is what held back the idea.

The thing to me is that if I thought that AEG hadn't done their homework and hadn't done their best to ensure that all considerations had been made to guarantee the quality of the ice at the Staples Center then there would be a serious reason for everyone to complain.

After looking into this as much as I have over the past few days which admittedly isn't a truly significant amount I am completely satisfied that AEG and its contractors did their absolute best to provide a state of the art facility for the Kings.

Maybe it is an issue of changing technologies in there was no possible way for anyone to know how rapidly synthetic ice would develop or the challenges of developing and maintaining it with what was at the time considered to be state of the art equipment (compressors etc).

I haven't any doubt that Kopitar's injury was the result of soft ice and have now heard some people tell of an ongoing problem in that specific corner but I also am relatively certain that AEG and the Kings would never allow the ice sheet to have any significant problems without addressing it immediately.



Sort of a final note for me.

I called and asked my skate company a little bit about the equipment question and if it were possible that any aspect of the gear could be presenting as a contributing factor in some of these injury cases.

He told me that it wasn't an out of the realm of possibility question. The skates that are being made today are lighter, tighter and sharper (depending on the player) which allows for a higher level of performance. They are also allowing the player's themselves to possibly press the gear beyond the parameters of their actual design.

The ice, the arena's, the locations, the gear, the players themselves all appear to have a certain amount of responsibility when it comes to the upswing in leg injuries or at least it seems that way.

Its all interesting stuff but it doesn't put Kopitar back on the ice so none of it really matters as of today.

Maybe down the road they can make things even safer then they are today? I don't know but I do believe that everyone involved is doing there best to stay ahead of things.

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03-30-2011, 05:04 PM
  #400
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Revolving doors at the entrances would work:
I remember when he used to play goal for the Kings back in 07/08.

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