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Kings @ Canucks 3/31/10 - First big post-Kopitar test

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Old
03-30-2011, 04:16 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... Yeah, he had a whole game or so to show it and he didn't light the World on fire, let's give up on that bum.
Ah, just the reason I keep the lineup card.

Simmonds started 11 games alongside Kopitar on the top line. Just a few more than "a whole game or so"

Games #40, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64. That's 10 straight games on the top line dude.

Loktionov earned his spot in camp, got demoted and called back up. He earned it. Moller has done everything the organization has asked for almost 4 years. He's earned his shot.

Also, Simmonds plays a kind of game neither of those two do or really can, which makes Simmonds a force on a grinder line and Moller and Loki useless in the same role. Apples and oranges so while I feel certain instances (like D. King) warrant a call of 'haven't earned it!", the same doesn't apply with Moller or Loki so please don't lump them all into a category in which they don't belong.


Last edited by JDM: 03-30-2011 at 04:23 PM.
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03-30-2011, 04:19 PM
  #27
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03-30-2011, 04:25 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by JDM View Post
Ah, just the reason I keep the lineup card.

Simmonds started 11 games alongside Kopitar on the top line. Just a few more than "a whole game or so"

Games #40, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64. That's 10 straight games on the top line dude.
Don't bring stats into this. It's much better to just go with a gut feel.

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03-30-2011, 04:45 PM
  #29
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03-30-2011, 04:47 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by JDM View Post
Ah, just the reason I keep the lineup card.

Simmonds started 11 games alongside Kopitar on the top line. Just a few more than "a whole game or so"

Games #40, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64. That's 10 straight games on the top line dude.

Loktionov earned his spot in camp, got demoted and called back up. He earned it. Moller has done everything the organization has asked for almost 4 years. He's earned his shot.

Also, Simmonds plays a kind of game neither of those two do or really can, which makes Simmonds a force on a grinder line and Moller and Loki useless in the same role. Apples and oranges so while I feel certain instances (like D. King) warrant a call of 'haven't earned it!", the same doesn't apply with Moller or Loki so please don't lump them all into a category in which they don't belong.
Hey that's not fair to use facts. Plus the last paragraph is 100% correct. Simmonds "fits" on the third line, Moller doesn't.

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03-30-2011, 05:05 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by JDM View Post
Ah, just the reason I keep the lineup card.

Simmonds started 11 games alongside Kopitar on the top line. Just a few more than "a whole game or so"

Games #40, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64. That's 10 straight games on the top line dude.
... That's pretty misleading. How many games did he get pulled off of the top line before the game was over? If you isolate those 11 games, he averaged 15:14 of ice time per game, hardly the same amount as guys like Dustin Penner (16:40) and Justin Williams (17:15) who are usually on the first line. When Loktionov was on the top line, he averaged 16 to 17 minutes per game.

In game 62, Simmonds got just 13:46 of ice time, and in game 63, he got just 11:06. TOP LINE BABY

The only games where Simmonds got true top line ice time were games 58-60, where he averaged 17:37 for those three games, and he scored three points in those three games - two goals and one assist.

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Loktionov earned his spot in camp
... Hahahahahahaha OK, training camp > actual game results, right on man!

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Originally Posted by JDM View Post
Moller has done everything the organization has asked for almost 4 years. He's earned his shot.
... Definitely he earned a shot on the Kings' roster. But, on the top line? Nope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JDM View Post
Apples and oranges so while I feel certain instances (like D. King) warrant a call of 'haven't earned it!", the same doesn't apply with Moller or Loki so please don't lump them all into a category in which they don't belong.
... Sure they do.

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03-30-2011, 05:14 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... That's pretty misleading. How many games did he get pulled off of the top line before the game was over? If you isolate those 11 games, he averaged 15:14 of ice time per game, hardly the same amount as guys like Dustin Penner (16:40) and Justin Williams (17:15) who are usually on the first line. When Loktionov was on the top line, he averaged 16 to 17 minutes per game.
Its not misleading because I also keep track of when lineup changes are made in-game. Simmonds was not moved around in those games except in the last, game 64, where Williams was swapped with Simmonds.

Quote:
In game 62, Simmonds got just 13:46 of ice time, and in game 63, he got just 11:06. TOP LINE BABY

The only games where Simmonds got true top line ice time were games 58-60, where he averaged 17:37 for those three games, and he scored three points in those three games - two goals and one assist.
Sounds like PP time is the difference.

Quote:
... Hahahahahahaha OK, training camp > actual game results, right on man!
Training camp is where players earn their spots... or have I been mistaken on how teams do things for my entire lifetime?


Quote:
... Definitely he earned a shot on the Kings' roster. But, on the top line? Nope.
Its where he was needed and where he fit. A call up was necessary and why for the love of all that is hockey do you refuse to accept that Moller is a top 6 or nothing player? Talk about Simmonds being mishandled all you want, Simmonds works on the grinder line and Moller would not. Putting Moller on any line other than the top 6 would be grossly mishandling HIM.


Quote:
... Sure they do.
Yes, categories such as 'hockey player', 'man', 'alive' and 'played part of the year in Manchester'. Otherwise, their roles with the team and how they arrived there are vastly different from one another.


Last edited by JDM: 03-30-2011 at 05:19 PM.
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03-30-2011, 05:27 PM
  #33
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Sounds like PP time is the difference.
... Don't top line players play on the power play? And, sorry man, you'll not get me to believe that a guy playing 11 minutes in a game is a true "top line" player.

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Training camp is where players earn their spots... or have I been mistaken on how teams do things for my entire lifetime?
... If player S scores 40 even-strength points in actual game play the previous season, and player L scores zero, there's no way player L can leapfrog player S on the depth chart in training camp - unless he's handed the spot.

If two players come into training camp with the same credentials, that's one thing - training camp can and usually does make the difference. But, to discredit actual game experience and past performance is just dense.

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why for the love of all that is hockey do you refuse to accept that Moller is a top 6 or nothing player?
... Actually, I said he didn't earn a shot on the top line. Is top 6 = top line? Do 6 players play on the top line? Don't misquote me as you go along, here.

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Originally Posted by JDM View Post
Yes, categories such as 'hockey player', 'man', 'alive' and 'played part of the year in Manchester'. Otherwise, their roles with the team and how they arrived there are vastly different from one another.
... VASTLY different! LMAO Oh, I know.

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03-30-2011, 05:31 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... Don't top line players play on the power play? And, sorry man, you'll not get me to believe that a guy playing 11 minutes in a game is a true "top line" player.

... If player S scores 40 even-strength points in actual game play the previous season, and player L scores zero, there's no way player L can leapfrog player S on the depth chart in training camp - unless he's handed the spot.

If two players come into training camp with the same credentials, that's one thing - training camp can and usually does make the difference. But, to discredit actual game experience and past performance is just dense.

... Actually, I said he didn't earn a shot on the top line. Is top 6 = top line? Do 6 players play on the top line? Don't misquote me as you go along, here.

... VASTLY different! LMAO Oh, I know.
Are there any straws left?

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03-30-2011, 05:31 PM
  #35
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Crap, the tickets are already on sale!?? I need to get my tickets!
You can PM me and I'll give you the two presale passwords I have. I'm getting a group together so I'll be ordering from group sales. Woot!

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03-30-2011, 05:33 PM
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Are there any straws left?
... Sorry, this guy has them all.


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03-30-2011, 05:35 PM
  #37
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honestly, i'll be surprised if the Kings score.
Then maybe you should just rejoin the Kings in October. I think the Lakers have a playoff series coming up in a few weeks.

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03-30-2011, 05:37 PM
  #38
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If two players come into training camp with the same credentials, that's one thing - training camp can and usually does make the difference. But, to discredit actual game experience and past performance is just dense.
So what your saying is that Handzus deserved the spot on the top line over Simmonds coming out of camp? Or Poni for that matter.


Quote:
... Actually, I said he didn't earn a shot on the top line. Is top 6 = top line? Do 6 players play on the top line? Don't misquote me as you go along, here.
Fine, then Brown should be on the top line and not Simmonds. And Moller on the 2nd line. And Simmonds where he is.


Quote:
... VASTLY different! LMAO Oh, I know.
Still waiting for a real point here other than "I hate Dwight King and I heart Simmonds". I'm paraphrasing of course, just in case that wasn't clear. If you can't see the difference between King, Loki and Moller both in terms of style of play and their progressions through and uses in the organization, well then all I can tell you is that I have nothing more to say to you about this.

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03-30-2011, 05:40 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... That's pretty misleading. How many games did he get pulled off of the top line before the game was over? If you isolate those 11 games, he averaged 15:14 of ice time per game, hardly the same amount as guys like Dustin Penner (16:40) and Justin Williams (17:15) who are usually on the first line. When Loktionov was on the top line, he averaged 16 to 17 minutes per game.
Brown had over 20 minutes last night, yet he's on the 2nd line?

Is that total ice time or ES ice time? PP and PK ice time doesn't matter if you are the "1st line" or "3rd line".

Since Penner has been on the Kings he has 12:53 ES TOI/G and Simmonds has 12:30 ES TOI/G. 23 seconds and you are complaining about "1st" line versus "3rd" line?

Simmonds averages more time than Loktionov, Moller, Handzus and Poni.

ES Points per game:

Moller 0.57
Brown 0.51
Penner 0.46
Smyth 0.42
Simmonds 0.35
Stoll 0.33
Loktionov 0.32
Handzus 0.24
Poni 0.22

Looks like Simmonds is right where he should be. If anything, Handzus is the one who is in the wrong place.

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03-30-2011, 05:44 PM
  #40
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... Sorry, this guy has them all.

LOL.

aaaaaaaand argument conceded.

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03-30-2011, 05:49 PM
  #41
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So what your saying is that Handzus deserves the spot on the top line over Simmonds coming out of camp?
... Actually, Simmonds had more even-strength points than Handzus did last season, but it's close. Certainly a lot closer than the difference between Simmonds and Loktionov.

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Fine, then Brown should be on the top line and not Simmonds. And Moller on the 2nd line. And Simmonds where he is.
... Hey, you won't get me to say that Brown shouldn't be on the top line. He's played pretty well and earned it. And there would be a way to get all three of those guys in the top 6 if you so desired. Maybe go:

Brown-Handzus-Simmonds
Penner-Stoll-Moller

Then perhaps go with Clifford-Richardson-Lewis for the third line. I just don't buy the original notion in this thread of "OMG Simmonds can't play on the top line" because that's simply B.S.

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Originally Posted by JDM View Post
If you can't see the difference between King, Loki and Moller both in terms of style of play and their progressions through and uses in the organization, well then all I can tell you is that I have nothing more to say to you about this.
... Of course they have different styles of play; that wasn't in question, was it? What they have in common is that they were all promoted straight from Manchester to Kopitar's line, and that's pretty funny considering Murray's all about accountability and earning spots - which is exactly the point I made in the beginning. Honestly, I don't know why you wish to go in circles with this, but the initial point was pretty clear.

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03-30-2011, 05:56 PM
  #42
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Then maybe you should just rejoin the Kings in October. I think the Lakers have a playoff series coming up in a few weeks.
Haha! I love it. Why even watch the games if that is how you really feel?

I have friends ready to throw in the towel when Kopitar got hurt. I certainly wasn't happy about it but this gives a chance to see what the rest of these guys are made of. What if they are still able to grab home ice? What if they win a playoff series? Maybe somebody will emerge as a playoff performer? These are all reasons I continue to watch. Never say never.

I remember when the Kings were on that second losing streak in the middle of the year there were so many people around here ready to throw in the towel. My respnose "wake me up when they don'tmake the playoffs". Knee jerk reactions almost always make you look like a jack ass. We all get emotional sometimes, I do everytime I watch Oprah, but you got put the remote down.. err.. keyboard and look at the big picture. There is still plenty of reasons to watch.

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03-30-2011, 05:57 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... Then perhaps go with Clifford-Richardson-Lewis for the third line. I just don't buy the original notion in this thread of "OMG Simmonds can't play on the top line" because that's simply B.S.
What about the fact that there are 4 wingers who score more at even strength than Simmonds? Lewis scores 4 points in 4 periods as the #2 center and you want to send him to the "shut down" line?

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03-30-2011, 06:04 PM
  #44
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What about the fact that there are 4 wingers who score more at even strength than Simmonds? Lewis scores 4 points in 4 periods as the #2 center and you want to send him to the "shut down" line?
... You're taking Moller's and Lewis's very small sample size numbers and making them out to be more significant than they truly are.

And, of all people, would YOU want Smyth in the top 6 based on those numbers, seeing as how you've been perhaps his biggest critic?

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Originally Posted by lakingsdrummer View Post
Then maybe you should just rejoin the Kings in October. I think the Lakers have a playoff series coming up in a few weeks.
... And I can't wait to watch it! Oh wait, am I breaking some kind of law here

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03-30-2011, 06:05 PM
  #45
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... Sorry, this guy has them all.

Great pic haha. Funny way to bow out.

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03-30-2011, 06:08 PM
  #46
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Haha! I love it. Why even watch the games if that is how you really feel?

I have friends ready to throw in the towel when Kopitar got hurt. I certainly wasn't happy about it but this gives a chance to see what the rest of these guys are made of. What if they are still able to grab home ice? What if they win a playoff series? Maybe somebody will emerge as a playoff performer? These are all reasons I continue to watch. Never say never.

I remember when the Kings were on that second losing streak in the middle of the year there were so many people around here ready to throw in the towel. My respnose "wake me up when they don'tmake the playoffs". Knee jerk reactions almost always make you look like a jack ass. We all get emotional sometimes, I do everytime I watch Oprah, but you got put the remote down.. err.. keyboard and look at the big picture. There is still plenty of reasons to watch.
I was quoting the dude who said "I doubt they'll score".

I agree with you.

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03-30-2011, 06:17 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... You're taking Moller's and Lewis's very small sample size numbers and making them out to be more significant than they truly are.

And, of all people, would YOU want Smyth in the top 6 based on those numbers, seeing as how you've been perhaps his biggest critic?



... And I can't wait to watch it! Oh wait, am I breaking some kind of law here
Simmonds has 1 goal and 3 points in March, Smyth has 1 goal and 5 points. Again, why does Simmonds deserve to be in the top 6?

Since Moller has been up, he has 1 assist, is a +2 and 10 shots. Simmonds has zero points, is a minus 2 and 4 shots. Kings are 3-0 with Moller on the "1st" line. Again, which RW is Simmonds out performing? Westgarth?

Maybe Simmonds is more "valuable" in his current role than trying to be Moller?


Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... The only games where Simmonds got true top line ice time were games 58-60, where he averaged 17:37 for those three games, and he scored three points in those three games - two goals and one assist.
So, JDM gives you 10 games in a row and you pick out the last 3 games to prove your point? Isn't that sample size too small? The last three games with Moller and Lewis in their current roles are out performing Simmonds. Maybe Simmonds got more ice time in those final three games because he actually did something?


Last edited by Sydor25: 03-30-2011 at 06:23 PM.
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03-30-2011, 06:19 PM
  #48
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I was quoting the dude who said "I doubt they'll score".

I agree with you.
I realize that.. i'm sorry when I said "you" I didn't mean you specifically. I was agreeing with you and then addressing him. I have a way with words..

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03-30-2011, 06:27 PM
  #49
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I realize that.. i'm sorry when I said "you" I didn't mean you specifically. I was agreeing with you and then addressing him. I have a way with words..
I suspected as much.

I just don't want to be confused with all the negative nancies around here. Their joy will be tainted by all their doubts once the time arrives.

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03-30-2011, 06:29 PM
  #50
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I don't know the specifics, but I got mine with an American Express cardmember pre-sale. So if you order the tickets with an American Express card, you can get them today. Single game tickets only.
Darn, thanks for the info. I don't have an AmEx card. Though, after your post, I saw the normal sale is tomorrow. I'm hoping I'm able to get game 1 as I did last year.

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