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Old
03-31-2011, 01:17 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
It's ok to admit that Niemi made an incredible save, and that Carter couldn't have done much.
just like some people will never admit Leighton did well in the playoffs last year before Chicago was because of the matchups, people will never admit that Niemi made that save he made. At the very, very worst it was a split second move that Carter had to make to score that goal. Maybe if he hadnt waited im what mattered to be a blink of an eye he wouldnt of "choked" which I still dont believe happened. it was an unlucky bounce and good save by Niemi. Just like MAF in almost the exact same situation the year before.
But hey what if Jeff Carter didnt play because of those broken feet. What would the conversation be about him? Its a question that not many want to answer on what he would be called by the same people who think he choked. The people who hate him will find anything. He cant win.

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03-31-2011, 01:31 PM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Cartsiephan probably would have drafted Jessiman instead of Carter, since our flyers team is too soft for him
I have a suspicion that if we had drafted someone besides Carter, Cartsiephan would be lobbying to trade him (or Richards) for Carter.

@GoneFullHolmgren: word.

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03-31-2011, 01:31 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
How many times is his name on the Cup? I thnk he gets a pass considering that was the 2nd year in a row in the SCF's. Oh, and just an FYI, they won it the year before.

Come on, these are layups folks.


So Lidstrom gets a pass, even though he didn't get his name on the Cup until his 6th season.

But Jeff Carter and Mike Richards are both underperformers and poor leaders, even though they're both only in their 6th season.

I bet, had you been an adult during the 80s, that you would have thrown the same criticisms at Steve Yzerman. His leadership and ability to step up when it matters was constantly in question and he didn't shake it off until he won the Cup... in his 14th season. Yet, now he's considered one of the greatest leaders and 'clutch' players of all-time.

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03-31-2011, 01:33 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I have a suspicion that if we had drafted someone besides Carter, Cartsiephan would be lobbying to trade him (or Richards) for Carter.
Correct.

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03-31-2011, 02:35 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
I bet, had you been an adult during the 80s, that you would have thrown the same criticisms at Steve Yzerman. His leadership and ability to step up when it matters was constantly in question and he didn't shake it off until he won the Cup... in his 14th season. Yet, now he's considered one of the greatest leaders and 'clutch' players of all-time.
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03-31-2011, 02:38 PM
  #106
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I'm amazed that cartsie has managed to troll everyone here for 5 pages. Seriously, bravo.

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03-31-2011, 02:44 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I have a suspicion that if we had drafted someone besides Carter, Cartsiephan would be lobbying to trade him (or Richards) for Carter.

@GoneFullHolmgren: word.
Yooo, word. I just prefer guys who play with a little more heart, take it for what it is, but guys like this do not have big success when the games get tough. Give me Getzlaf or any of the other guys already mentioned, heck Giroux and Parise at half the size play with more guts.

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03-31-2011, 02:45 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
I'm amazed that cartsie has managed to troll everyone here for 5 pages. Seriously, bravo.
Normally trolls are somewhat entertaining such as JXC, but cartsie is not. I actually like him for one thing: Carter has been hated heer for awhile, but i feel thanks to this dude, more people defend him and look at the good he has done.

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03-31-2011, 02:53 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Yooo, word. I just prefer guys who play with a little more heart, take it for what it is, but guys like this do not have big success when the games get tough. Give me Getzlaf or any of the other guys already mentioned, heck Giroux and Parise at half the size play with more guts.
It's official, you just change the channel whenever Carter is on the ice. There is no way you actually watch him play.

Newsflash: playing hockey on two broken feet is guts.

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03-31-2011, 03:03 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
It's official, you just change the channel whenever Carter is on the ice. There is no way you actually watch him play.

Newsflash: playing hockey on two broken feet is guts.
Actually I have no name on the back of my jersey, I root for the crest on the front and not the name on the back like it says on the wall.

1. scores goals, check
2. good center who plays a good defensive game even though Giroux has him playing out of position, check
3. solid on faceoffs, although Giroux takes a lot of the offensive zone faceoffs, Carter has been taking some more in the defensive zone, check
4. lack a real slap shot or one-timer, check
5. does not use his size on the boards, check
6. is loved by fans who adore him for scoring goals, check
7. if anyone dare criticize him for being less than what the fans say he is, turncoat who is not really a Flyers fan, check


I root for the team to perform, it means that as a key cog Carter needs to be an important piece of that playoff puzzle or else those 35 goals in the regular season mean nothing, nada, not one thing. But yes, of course I just make things up.

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03-31-2011, 03:04 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by mm6492 View Post
Normally trolls are somewhat entertaining such as JXC, but cartsie is not. I actually like him for one thing: Carter has been hated heer for awhile, but i feel thanks to this dude, more people defend him and look at the good he has done.
Talk to me after the playoffs. I hope to the Stanley Cup gods you are right.

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03-31-2011, 03:14 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Actually I have no name on the back of my jersey, I root for the crest on the front and not the name on the back like it says on the wall.

1. scores goals, check
2. good center who plays a good defensive game even though Giroux has him playing out of position, check
3. solid on faceoffs, although Giroux takes a lot of the offensive zone faceoffs, Carter has been taking some more in the defensive zone, check
4. lack a real slap shot or one-timer, check
5. does not use his size on the boards, check
6. is loved by fans who adore him for scoring goals, check
7. if anyone dare criticize him for being less than what the fans say he is, turncoat who is not really a Flyers fan, check


I root for the team to perform, it means that as a key cog Carter needs to be an important piece of that playoff puzzle or else those 35 goals in the regular season mean nothing, nada, not one thing. But yes, of course I just make things up.
1) To address the bolded, Carter was easily one of the most panned players on this forum. Then you showed up and singlehandedly changed that. You made a lot of people actually pay attention to what Carter does on every shift, and they've realized he's actually quite good. You're entirely unreasonable, and your ludicrous agenda against Carter makes no sense to any sane/rational hockey fan.

2) Again....you seem to think that Carter is Gretzky. That EVERYTHING depends on him. It doesn't. Just as it all isn't dependent on Richards, or Giroux, or Briere, or Timonen or Pronger alone. It depends on an effort from everyone, yet you decide to make Carter the focus for everything.

There are no superstars on this team capable of putting a team on their back and carrying them to a Stanley Cup. There are no superstars in this league even capable of doing that, with the exception of Crosby (and even he had a lot of help from his teammates). Changing Carter out for Getzlaf or Perry is, at best, a lateral move. This team is built for depth. If one player isn't producing, the idea is that someone else will be able to step up. If you really, really want to get rid of Carter's offensive production and replace it with something inferior, it shows you aren't thinking rationally, and just have some sort of unfathomable personal dislike for the guy.

edit: You haven't addressed this yet:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post


So Lidstrom gets a pass, even though he didn't get his name on the Cup until his 6th season.

But Jeff Carter and Mike Richards are both underperformers and poor leaders, even though they're both only in their 6th season.

I bet, had you been an adult during the 80s, that you would have thrown the same criticisms at Steve Yzerman. His leadership and ability to step up when it matters was constantly in question and he didn't shake it off until he won the Cup... in his 14th season. Yet, now he's considered one of the greatest leaders and 'clutch' players of all-time.


Last edited by Beef Invictus: 03-31-2011 at 03:20 PM.
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Old
03-31-2011, 03:23 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
1) To address the bolded, Carter was easily one of the most panned players on this forum. Then you showed up and singlehandedly changed that. You made a lot of people actually pay attention to what Carter does on every shift, and they've realized he's actually quite good. You're entirely unreasonable, and your ludicrous agenda against Carter makes no sense to any sane/rational hockey fan.

2) Again....you seem to think that Carter is Gretzky. That EVERYTHING depends on him. It doesn't. Just as it all isn't dependent on Richards, or Giroux, or Briere, or Timonen or Pronger alone. It depends on an effort from everyone, yet you decide to make Carter the focus for everything.

There are no superstars on this team capable of putting a team on their back and carrying them to a Stanley Cup. There are no superstars in this league even capable of doing that, with the exception of Crosby (and even he had a lot of help from his teammates). Changing Carter out for Getzlaf or Perry is, at best, a lateral move. This team is built for depth. If one player isn't producing, the idea is that someone else will be able to step up. If you really, really want to get rid of Carter's offensive production and replace it with something inferior, it shows you aren't thinking rationally, and just have some sort of unfathomable personal dislike for the guy.


Teams are like a chain, if there is one weak link the chain breaks. As I have said, I think this team could be just as successful with or without him, but it is up to his play come the playoffs to change his legacy as a playoff performer. It is imperitive that your best regular season performer not only steps up their game, but RAISES their game to the next level(see Briere).

But the point I have made is if Carter is not scoring what is his real value? A defensive fwd on this roster so built with scoring depth(this role is already taken by Richards IMO)? The most "clutch" guy in the regular season not scoring at a bigger clip in the post-season?


Call me what you want, but without a better performance from Carter this team is going to have trouble, and it starts with a more physical presence, which is just not in Carters game and for the life of me I cannot figure out why when JvR seems to have figured it out.

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03-31-2011, 03:28 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
edit: You haven't addressed this yet:

edit: You haven't addressed this yet:


Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88


So Lidstrom gets a pass, even though he didn't get his name on the Cup until his 6th season.

But Jeff Carter and Mike Richards are both underperformers and poor leaders, even though they're both only in their 6th season.

I bet, had you been an adult during the 80s, that you would have thrown the same criticisms at Steve Yzerman. His leadership and ability to step up when it matters was constantly in question and he didn't shake it off until he won the Cup... in his 14th season. Yet, now he's considered one of the greatest leaders and 'clutch' players of all-time.

Stevie Y was never questioned as a leader, but his role on those teams of being able to carry a team to a Cup was in question and had he not won that ALWAYS would have been a missing piece of his career. Bourque was a different animal because he moved to win a Cup, but same thing. His legacy was already intact, no one ever questioned Bourque's motivation or preperation or ability to get teh job done. He was just supported by a couple idiots in the Jacobs family who refused to sink money into getting players.

Is it going to take this core 14 years to get it done? Homer has given this group an honest chance to win now, in their prime, can they seize that moment? We will find out.

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03-31-2011, 03:30 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Teams are like a chain, if there is one weak link the chain breaks. As I have said, I think this team could be just as successful with or without him, but it is up to his play come the playoffs to change his legacy as a playoff performer. It is imperitive that your best regular season performer not only steps up their game, but RAISES their game to the next level(see Briere).

But the point I have made is if Carter is not scoring what is his real value? A defensive fwd on this roster so built with scoring depth(this role is already taken by Richards IMO)? The most "clutch" guy in the regular season not scoring at a bigger clip in the post-season?


Call me what you want, but without a better performance from Carter this team is going to have trouble, and it starts with a more physical presence, which is just not in Carters game and for the life of me I cannot figure out why when JvR seems to have figured it out.
OK, let me get this straight....first you say that the team would be equally successful without him....then you go on to say that they will lose if he doesn't do well. That doesn't make a shred of sense.

As for not playing physically, again...it goes back to you either completely ignoring him on the ice, or just refusing to believe what you see.

Here's an example of Carter out-muscling the best player in the NHL:



He actually does that sort of thing pretty often.

As for the "clutch" argument, it's been thoroughly debunked in other threads, and is nothing more than a hollow accusation you like to level against him.

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03-31-2011, 03:59 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Stevie Y was never questioned as a leader, but his role on those teams of being able to carry a team to a Cup was in question and had he not won that ALWAYS would have been a missing piece of his career.
His leadership was always in question until he won a Cup, especially following their appearance in the '95 Final where the Wings were swept by the Devils.

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03-31-2011, 06:06 PM
  #117
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Again, no one questioned Howe's work ethic or leadership, he was a model athlete in Philly and a great player. The 1987 season was the one that they needed back, with Kerr going out it made the road so much tougher against the all-star Oilers. No trophy for 2nd place, and each one of the playes mentioned failed to accomplish it in O&B. That is their legacy.

Carter and Richards will have their legacy, but ownership has all but given them a great chance(minus goaltending) to lead this team to victory. Can they do it, and if they do not who will they blame? This is a real test of character for this team. After the 1987 series it was probably the Flyers team I was most proud of without a Cup, quite a gritty bunch.
Yeah, Howe was had a great work ethic and leadership as a Flyer but the reason the Flyers got Howe was because early in his career he had a rep for being soft and unwilling to play hard, a whiner. You are comparing Howe in his prime to Richards and Carter who are just approaching their prime.

Mid eighty's team was awesome bunch. Ruined by the start of big ticket free agency contracts.

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03-31-2011, 06:13 PM
  #118
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For all of you people in love with Parise, how many playoff series has he won? He has a good team that finished in top half of the conference with a HOF goalie but still hasn't gotten out of the first rd yet. And here the flyers are stuck with Carter.

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03-31-2011, 06:26 PM
  #119
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Hindsight is always 20/20 when it comes to the draft. Fact is, the Flyers got two cornerstones that year in Carter and Richards. Carter is probably going to pop in 40 this year and Richards really has lived up to the next Doug Gilmour moniker that scouts have said about him.

Carter has become a real complete player. He's a big guy that can skate and has become a top notch defender to go along with his goal scoring presence. What's not to like about a 40 goal a year guy who can play high end defense?

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03-31-2011, 06:42 PM
  #120
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Hindsight is always 20/20 when it comes to the draft. Fact is, the Flyers got two cornerstones that year in Carter and Richards. Carter is probably going to pop in 40 this year and Richards really has lived up to the next Doug Gilmour moniker that scouts have said about him.

Carter has become a real complete player. He's a big guy that can skate and has become a top notch defender to go along with his goal scoring presence. What's not to like about a 40 goal a year guy who can play high end defense?
He's also the guy who switched to wing and is making it work. Not only that but after breaking 2 feet on blocked shot, he's the most effective guy in front of the net, screening the goalie and getting shots off his skates. But he has no heart!

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03-31-2011, 06:54 PM
  #121
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He's also the guy who switched to wing and is making it work. Not only that but after breaking 2 feet on blocked shot, he's the most effective guy in front of the net, screening the goalie and getting shots off his skates. But he has no heart!
Yeah exactly. As I've said on numerous occasions, Carter will never be mistaken for Lindros in terms of physicality. He was never a physical player in junior and to expect him to become a hard hitting player is ludicrous. However, he's shown on a few occasions that he's not afraid to throw the dukes and he's pounded some people.

I also think moving Carter to the wing will also bring out the physical side in his game in that he'll be able to be a presence that will open up the ice for a guy like Giroux. And the fact that Carter seems like he's getting "it" with regards to playing the wing only makes him that much of a better player because it's going to add versatility to his game.

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03-31-2011, 10:05 PM
  #122
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For all of you people in love with Parise, how many playoff series has he won? He has a good team that finished in top half of the conference with a HOF goalie but still hasn't gotten out of the first rd yet. And here the flyers are stuck with Carter.
What does that have to do with anything? Just because he hasn't won a series doesn't mean he isn't better than carter

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03-31-2011, 10:06 PM
  #123
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What does that have to do with anything? Just because he hasn't won a series doesn't mean he isn't better than carter
people are criticizing carter cause he never won anything and isn't "clutch"

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03-31-2011, 10:23 PM
  #124
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Parise's also been on a team which has become notorious for its inability to get past the first round since their last Cup victory. Can't put that squarely on him.

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04-01-2011, 01:38 AM
  #125
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Parise's also been on a team which has become notorious for its inability to get past the first round since their last Cup victory. Can't put that squarely on him.
And you can not put our failures squarely on Carter, yet people do.

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