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Another Embarrassing Loss

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Old
03-31-2011, 05:18 PM
  #276
Whitesnake
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Again WS, you have to be fair.

If NJ started the year with Lemaire, sure, maybe they'd be in a much better situation. They have come back down to reality however, they are 5-5-1 in last 11. But surely, they would be much closer to a race had Lemaire started there (or maybe even secured their spot). You mention how they would have done this even without Parise which compares to Markov. Well, I'm sure we would have secured our spot with every player but Markov as well. Actually, just gimme one of Gorges-Spacek-MaxPac, and we'd already have a secured spot by now. I'm convinced of it.

Reimer played 32Games, how would he have faired off with double the amount? I have no idea. Don't be so sure to say they'd be closer to a PO spot. There isn't too many goalies that can perform over 60+games as well as they do over 30-40.

What really is annoying though, is how people will quickly claim that we're going in the PO because other teams have struggled early on, which means we are lucky.
I think that is extremely negative and an unjustifiable thing to say.
We are going in the PO because we played better than the teams beneath us over the full season. We did so while missing key players over very long periods of time. People should be flat out impressed by our performance this year. But instead, they look at other teams and say, woosh, we're lucky they didn't wake up earlier.
I feel this is a very cheap way to look at what we've accomplished.

I'm extremely impressed with our club this year. When Markov went down, some were ready to scratch our season off. When Gorges went down, most of the remaining fans jumped in the same wagon (myself included). I was ready to sell some players actually. And then we lost Cammy, Darche, Spacek, and lately MaxPac (and Picard), but yet we're still standing. And instead of giving credit where credit is due (our coaching staff and players), people will look at the outside factors like other teams not going on absolute tears and then say we're lucky.
We were anything BUT lucky this year. No luck whatsoever.
TOTALLY understand what you're saying....except that I don't believe we'd be that much higher and a cup contender if we would have been totally healthy with no outside factors coming in 'cause at one point, every team has them. My belief is that we would have more points yes, and that we might have been more present in games we lost. But I can't believed we'd be on top despite those factors. 'Cause again, you also can't compare us without any outside factors and compare it to teams right now who despite some blows (yes, different than ours) are where they are right now.

Where we'll agree to disagree is that based on the injuries we have and on the overall talent of this team who I believe is not mixed well enough, we might not have been lucky but our place is a testament as to how bad this conference is this year. Don't call it luck since there's always, in every sport, bad teams all around....but I believe that while it was somewhat tough to determine which conference was the best in most of the years, I know there were a lot of debate in the main board at one point, I don't think there's ANY debate this year. So we won't call it luck, we'll call it faith.

Now, I don't like Martin at all, that's pretty clear already. But I also mentioned how he's doing almost the best with what he has as far as where we are in the standings. Still dissaproved his methods as far as rookies are concerned, mostly vets vs rookies and the mistakes ratio....I will not believe in benching a rookie based on 1 mistake he makes when the vets are doing the same mistakes over and over without being benched that much. I personnally don't like his personnality, I understand it's not a hockey comment, but yet, I have a right to prefer a more present coach. Will always believe in communication something he doesn't seem to believe in etc....BUT he is doing the best he can. We've been saved in a lot of occasions by Price yet....the org. is responsible for his pick and is responsible for keeping him so you won't see me bash them for having Price in our team, he's part of the team, he's making a difference, so be it. Yet, if the kid ends up with no juice when it counts the most, then we'll talk again....They wanted him to be the only possible #1 in the team...well they'll have to deal with the positivse and the negatives of that decision.

Anyway, again, I thought I was being fair 'cause while I still don't think, even healthy, as enough to be dominant in the playoffs, they are still a fine regular season team who misses some assets so that blowouts like we're witnessing lately shouldn't be THAT surprising based on the outrageous comments we keep reading in most GDT's.

As the overall quality of the team is concerned, well until proven otherwise, I will always believed that the mix of players isn't right. I also understand that for the transition game to operate, you would have needed a healthy Markov....but at one point, if we decide to sign him, I'm sorry but that excuse will no longer stand. He was injured once, pretty sure nobody thought he would have had the same injury immediately after but now....we all know it can happen. Either you walk from him, either you sign him but surround him better. And if your identity is transition, well bigger bodies up front, speedier and shiftier players on D's....not the contrary. Seems to me right now, that our players don't match the identity we're suppose to have to make us win.

But and I repeat myself, we're doing the best we can with what we have. That's pretty fair as far as I'm concerned.

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03-31-2011, 06:09 PM
  #277
sampollock
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the owner needs to put pressure on PG to step up and deliver size to this club,

enough, the experiment of speed and smallness fails, move on

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03-31-2011, 07:44 PM
  #278
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People always jump to exclaim:"We are too small!" as if this was the easy solution to all of our problems. This is making things way too simple. Would it help if we had bigger, equally talented players up front? Sure. But find me a team for which that's not a true statement.

Our problems recently are not in any way caused by our size. The guys have just been playing terrible defensive hockey, making lots of bad decisions. That's it.

People are always complaining about our lack of size, but are you willing to trade what it will take to acquire (talented) size up front? Think of what you would accept in exchange for Pacioretty, I guy who's still an up and coming powerforward with a lot to prove. You'd ask for the moon, right? Now, just why would the other teams act any differently?

The only way to get bigger is through the draft, and the team has been trying to adress this recently, but it's going to take time. Eller, Leblanc, Tinordi, Pacioretty, Avtsin are all players that could play big roles in our future, and none of them are small. And then we've seen how Subban, despite not being the tallest of defensemen, can deliver crushing hits.

This slump is just the result of a team forgetting to play defense. The long break will allow them to work on their fundamentals and get back on their game. There is no reason to panic and change half the roster in the summer.

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Old
03-31-2011, 09:07 PM
  #279
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lol @ people comparing the Habs and the Leafs. The Habs are better and it's not even close.

Skarjak has it right. The problems the Habs had versus Carolina don't get fixed by more heart or more size or more effort or more whatever. You don't fix those problems with a bag skate. You fix them with a video session.

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Old
03-31-2011, 10:51 PM
  #280
Whitesnake
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarjak View Post
People always jump to exclaim:"We are too small!" as if this was the easy solution to all of our problems. This is making things way too simple. Would it help if we had bigger, equally talented players up front? Sure. But find me a team for which that's not a true statement.

Our problems recently are not in any way caused by our size. The guys have just been playing terrible defensive hockey, making lots of bad decisions. That's it.

People are always complaining about our lack of size, but are you willing to trade what it will take to acquire (talented) size up front? Think of what you would accept in exchange for Pacioretty, I guy who's still an up and coming powerforward with a lot to prove. You'd ask for the moon, right? Now, just why would the other teams act any differently?

The only way to get bigger is through the draft, and the team has been trying to adress this recently, but it's going to take time. Eller, Leblanc, Tinordi, Pacioretty, Avtsin are all players that could play big roles in our future, and none of them are small. And then we've seen how Subban, despite not being the tallest of defensemen, can deliver crushing hits.

This slump is just the result of a team forgetting to play defense. The long break will allow them to work on their fundamentals and get back on their game. There is no reason to panic and change half the roster in the summer.
Each team have their own things to work on. Getting bigger up front is not a problem for teams who are actually are big....but their problem might be to have more talent...or more speed etc....Amongst the problems we have, is a bigger squad up front and mostly on the top 6, players that are used over and over again, who can tire more easily, who with a bigger body might be able to confront this tough calendar more easily, or when in game situations can make you win 1 on 1 battles and start trying to win games in other ways than on the PP or by fancy plays over our skilled but small forwards. And yes again, bigger is not always the solution. You can be big and be Jimmy Bonneau. Or you can be small and be Martin St-Louis and that's obviously what's not talked about here.

Yes, it's too easy to pinpoint 1 thing and say that THIS IS THE PROBLEM. It's not that and never was. There,s a whole lot more grey area but that doesn't suit a board like this one who prefers black or white areas. But it would be a start to, at the very least, have that kind of mentality that this organization didn't seem to believe on. Yes, they are usually trying to address it more now and yes it will be through the draft....But a team who REALLY believes in this would have not spend all the money they did on 3 guys that doesn't fit the criteria. If so, how can you say that this is what they are trying to do and yet, spend as much money on something that is exactly the contrary of what they think they should be doing....'Cause that is what was available at the time? Don't believe it's the wisest way of building a team....But even if you can't get a Getzlaf for a 5th round pick or through UFA, it is possible that if you REALLY consider size and grit as a need on your team, you address the way you can. I'd like to know here who would have been TOTALLY against some signings in the summer la Asham, Kenopka and Rupp/Thornburn for example to form a 4th line? Yes, those guys are NOT the ones that will win you a cup...but they are the ones who you can count so that your players don't feel intimidated or type of guys you can count so you'd try to change the momentum of a game by bodychecks and hard play. Not the end of the world, not the difference between a Cup and a 15th place...but a start. At the very least, it clarifies the identity you really want to give to your team. But no, we're called a speedy and puck possession team. A team that while he has lost his most important piece as far as gaining puck possession, looks totally lost most of the time and a clear example of that is all the penalties taken for trying to get the puck back or being frustrated 'cause there's just no way you can get it back. And for whoever would like to mention how getting that kind of 4th line deprives us from this supposed speed lable we have, I'll talk about Moen....Darche....White....Desharnais and mention how those are not categorized in speedy either. And then let's not talk about the defense 'cause speed isn't amongst their top 5 qualities as a group....

Yes, they are also not as bad as what we're seeing now but something is sure though....we might need to change half of the team over the summer anyway....What do you do with the D squad? Everybody's back? While not that important...is Auld back? Isn't Ramo suppose to come over? And if Ramo does well....would that help the team to not make Price play 70 games next year? What do you do with Halpern and Darche? Are we really making White a regular? What about Pyatt? Becomes the 13th forward? Are we going to give a chance to Carle, Palushaj, Dawes, Conboy on the 4th or Engqvist? Are we really going to sign Kostitsyn long term or are we going to trade him depending of what he does in the playoffs? Was the Desharnais experiment conclusive enough? How much money do we have? What's out there? Half the team might be generous....but a strong possiblity that 1/3 might move, like it or not.

But Hamrlik mentioning how tentative we are when we're not at home....Darche saying how fragile we are....Yes, I guess it's just a slump, like it happens to everybody once in a while....Yet, I'll believe it's more than that and it's a question of trying to play an identity we aren't.....But we'll see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
lol @ people comparing the Habs and the Leafs. The Habs are better and it's not even close.

Skarjak has it right. The problems the Habs had versus Carolina don't get fixed by more heart or more size or more effort or more whatever. You don't fix those problems with a bag skate. You fix them with a video session.
Was obviously not comparing the Habs and Leafs, was just saying how with the reality of our injuries and all, the only thing the Leafs would have needed this year is some stability in net to give us a tough battle in the rankings. It doesn't mean we're not stronger on paper, doesn't mean the Leafs will win a cup, it just means what it means...


Last edited by Whitesnake: 03-31-2011 at 11:00 PM.
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Old
04-01-2011, 04:57 AM
  #281
MasterDecoy
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funny how losing spacegoat, you know, the WORST DEFENSEMAN EVER RAAAAAAGE TRADE HIM, funny how his hole in the lineup has yet to be filled.

meanwhile, hammer's tank is simply empty.

it's not just markov and gorges, spacek's absence really hurt too...

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04-01-2011, 07:11 AM
  #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
funny how losing spacegoat, you know, the WORST DEFENSEMAN EVER RAAAAAAGE TRADE HIM, funny how his hole in the lineup has yet to be filled.

meanwhile, hammer's tank is simply empty.

it's not just markov and gorges, spacek's absence really hurt too...
it pisses me off when i hear people complain about spacek all the time. he has probably been our best Dman defensively, and you're right, him out of the line up does hurt us.

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04-01-2011, 07:26 AM
  #283
MasterDecoy
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Originally Posted by saints96 View Post
it pisses me off when i hear people complain about spacek all the time. he has probably been our best Dman defensively, and you're right, him out of the line up does hurt us.
to be fair though, he was average-to-bad in the middle of the season when he wasn't playing on his natural side. after he switched back to his natural side, he was a rock.

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Old
04-01-2011, 07:44 AM
  #284
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
to be fair though, he was average-to-bad in the middle of the season when he wasn't playing on his natural side. after he switched back to his natural side, he was a rock.
id say he was average to bad at the start. after around the 20 game mark, the dude was rock solid man. playing against top lines, shutting big stars down, i tip my hat to him.

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Old
04-01-2011, 07:50 AM
  #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
to be fair though, he was average-to-bad in the middle of the season when he wasn't playing on his natural side. after he switched back to his natural side, he was a rock.

Yup, play him on his natural side and keep him down to <20 minutes/game and he's a good solid dman. Not a superstar by any means, but as long as you keep him from getting gassed and play his natural side he's a solid 2nd pairing.

But I still like to call him Spacegoat.

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Old
04-01-2011, 08:42 AM
  #286
Skarjak
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I'll agree with you Whitesnake that something needs to be done about toughness in this team, and that a fourth or third liner with size would be very welcome. I just hate it when people use our lack of size as a magic explanation for our losses. Haven't we beaten the Bruins four times this season?

Ultimately, I think Gainey signed the guys he did because he had no other choice. We would have had to pay a lot more than we did for Gomez to obtain another first line center. The emergence of a few young centers in our organization (and of Plekanec) might allow us to get rid of him this summer. I guess he will have been a good patch for a while, and it only cost a defensive prospect we didn't have much faith in. Cammalleri is a good player and I'm happy we signed him. Ideally he would be surrounded by bigger players. He's in a bad slump, but that describes most of this team. Gionta is the one I have issues with. This guy has Chris Higgins syndrome: how many scoring chances has he ruined? How many empty nets did he miss? He is certainly overpaid, and I would have rather seen a home grown player, Josh Gorges, be given the C. Especially considering he was the last one of these three we acquired, we should probably have looked a bit harder elsewhere. I mostly don't like the length of his contract. Then again, I'm not convinced he'll finish it here.

The reality of our situation was that we couldn't be that picky, since we blew up our roster.

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04-01-2011, 08:46 AM
  #287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarjak View Post
I'll agree with you Whitesnake that something needs to be done about toughness in this team, and that a fourth or third liner with size would be very welcome. I just hate it when people use our lack of size as a magic explanation for our losses. Haven't we beaten the Bruins four times this season?

Ultimately, I think Gainey signed the guys he did because he had no other choice. We would have had to pay a lot more than we did for Gomez to obtain another first line center. The emergence of a few young centers in our organization (and of Plekanec) might allow us to get rid of him this summer. I guess he will have been a good patch for a while, and it only cost a defensive prospect we didn't have much faith in. Cammalleri is a good player and I'm happy we signed him. Ideally he would be surrounded by bigger players. He's in a bad slump, but that describes most of this team. Gionta is the one I have issues with. This guy has Chris Higgins syndrome: how many scoring chances has he ruined? How many empty nets did he miss? He is certainly overpaid, and I would have rather seen a home grown player, Josh Gorges, be given the C. Especially considering he was the last one of these three we acquired, we should probably have looked a bit harder elsewhere. I mostly don't like the length of his contract. Then again, I'm not convinced he'll finish it here.

The reality of our situation was that we couldn't be that picky, since we blew up our roster.
I wouldn't quite call him homegrown. I have no issues with Gionta but I wouldn't mind seeing one or two of the "smaller" players traded out for some strength and net presence. Although before Pacioretty's injury this team was rolling along just fine despite the plethora of injuries on D.

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