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Old
04-03-2011, 01:10 AM
  #251
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Originally Posted by ReenMachine View Post
I'm all for continuing rewarding responsible GMs then.

Sure , they might have a good reason for not being able to make these picks , like I might have a good reason for missing 7 days of work , but I would still get fired.
We're into spares now, and those teams have yet to fill out their starting rosters. For the sakes of competitiveness, they must have their picks made up.

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04-03-2011, 01:24 AM
  #252
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We're into spares now, and those teams have yet to fill out their starting rosters. For the sakes of competitiveness, they must have their picks made up.
Good point. I never thought that far ahead, but yeah, anyone in a division with a team that just stopped picking at #750 and didn't get any makeup picks until the end, is probably laughing right now. We should give them a fighting chance.

I'll get some lists together and look at what each team needs. I'll make the picks in the order they were skipped.

that is, unless anyone has any "conflict of interest" problems with it. I have responsibilities to my own team (which are in order) and to this draft (which currently are not) - Is it possible that there can be any perception of impropriety here? Please speak up.

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04-03-2011, 01:34 AM
  #253
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Advantage is friends with chaos obviously. His last several missed picks were announced by chaos. Their fates are tied IMO

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04-03-2011, 01:36 AM
  #254
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If anyone is going to step in and make picks for teams, it should be former GM's that aren't part of this draft, or new GM's looking to get their foot in the door.

Absolutely no picks should be made by GM's in this draft, including VanI who has pledged his allegiance with the Velocity. We don't need to have a question of a conflict of interest.

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04-03-2011, 01:37 AM
  #255
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Originally Posted by vancityluongo View Post
If anyone is going to step in and make picks for teams, it should be former GM's that aren't part of this draft, or new GM's looking to get their foot in the door.

Absolutely no picks should be made by GM's in this draft, including VanI who has pledged his allegiance with the Velocity. We don't need to have a question of a conflict of interest.
Agree

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04-03-2011, 01:40 AM
  #256
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Also any GMs who need their teams taken over this time should have to have co-GMs before being allowed to join next time.

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04-03-2011, 01:41 AM
  #257
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so, what if we can't find someone? then what?

and please give me an example of what the conflict of interest might be. I'm just trying to understand here.

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04-03-2011, 01:41 AM
  #258
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I was gonna take Green but decided I didn't need a PP specialist, so I went with an solid if injury prone all-rounder.

BTW, Salo is a D, he's listed as a C...

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04-03-2011, 01:44 AM
  #259
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
so, what if we can't find someone? then what?

and please give me an example of what the conflict of interest might be. I'm just trying to understand here.
An active gm picking for them is really a last option

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04-03-2011, 01:49 AM
  #260
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Thanks for making my pick 70's and TDMM.

Sergei Kapustin is a very nice 4th liner in this draft. Actually, an All-Russian Kapustin - Almetov - Loktev line would bring a nice set of skills and grit for a 4th line. However, it's Shack that will play regular shift on that left side, while I won't mind using Kapustin if necessary.

The same thing apply to Gilles Marotte. Top-6 is set at defence, but Marotte is someone who can play multiple role on a team, and he's a perfect #7 in this draft, again, I won't mind using him if I need to.

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2) Before reading your bio, I didn't know if Rollins was better than Mike Liut. Now I think he's probably closer to Cujo. That's probably not what you want to hear, but at least it's an improvement, right?
I actually don't mind if you compare Al Rollins to Ron Tugnutt, I just want to understand the reasoning behind the comparision. Rollins and Joseph seems like an odd mix to compare, as Rollins clearly had the better peak, while Joseph has the longevity in the best league in the world. Again, I'm not looking to 'pimp' my player, but to find where exactly they belong in the grand scheme of thing. But yes, I do believe Rollins is a superior goaltender to Joseph.

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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
Wow! Well done. Nice analysis. Steal of the draft IMO. Always felt that Rollins was under rated.

Side note to Justoneoftheguys.

Dropping Orland kurtenbach is a huge mistake. There is nobody out there you can pick that is better than Orland.
Nice to read from you, and thank you for the comment. I thought I was fair in my assessment, and I spent tons of hours profiling him. I also think he was a magnificent pickup for my team. I would love to be able to talk on some of those old-timers who played against all the 1950's great goaltender, because my feel is that Rollins was not that far behind the great of the 1950's.

I also agree with you on this. VanI made some astute selection, but I would of kept Kurtenbach around for sure.

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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
I was gonna take Green but decided I didn't need a PP specialist, so I went with an solid if injury prone all-rounder.

BTW, Salo is a D, he's listed as a C...
-A player is far more prone to injury during a game than practice. I don't really mind having an injureprone defenceman as a backup. Perhaps with four spare I would also select a #8-D, but Salo is an excellent #7 in this draft if not use too often.

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Old
04-03-2011, 01:51 AM
  #261
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Seriously, papershoes was gone for a long time, but he showed up to tell is that he was on vacation. And we all understand. Real life is more important than the tad. But at least let us know where you are.

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04-03-2011, 01:54 AM
  #262
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How did Rollins have a better peak than cujo? I mean, maybe he did, but I'm not convince yet

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04-03-2011, 01:55 AM
  #263
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With our 892nd pick, Chicago Steelers select John Sorrell, LW.

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For the next 7 1/2 seasons Sorrell was a key contributor to the Detroit franchises' success.
Quote:
A skilled player with good skating ability, Sorrell twice led the Wings in goal scoring. This was quite an accomplishment considering his teammates included the great Ebbie Goodfellow, Syd Howe and XXX.


Last edited by Reds4Life: 04-03-2011 at 02:04 AM.
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04-03-2011, 02:02 AM
  #264
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Rollins is a great case study. There are many players who had stellar minor league careers in the O6 era. And as we move deeper and deeper into the draft those minor league seasons matter more and more. Rollins is almost certainly the best of the players who had to spend peak years in the minors aside from those we can ignore those years like Bower. And we can look at players as good as Ed Belfour and see a shaky middle to the career and wonder, in a 6 team league, would he have gotten a second chance?

I dont know how to rank Rollins, but he is one of the most interesting puzzles.

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04-03-2011, 02:24 AM
  #265
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
How did Rollins have a better peak than cujo? I mean, maybe he did, but I'm not convince yet
I'm not an expert on Joseph, but I think he only got one season with St-Louis that comes close to Al Rollins three best season (1950-51, 1952-53, 1953-54). Rollins was top-2 goaltender in the league in those three seasons, and you can look back at my study to show against whom he had to compete against. For me, the only reason we can compare those two in term of greatness, is that Joseph had a lengthly career in the NHL, while Rollins only had 7 season of hockey in the NHL.

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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Rollins is a great case study. There are many players who had stellar minor league careers in the O6 era. And as we move deeper and deeper into the draft those minor league seasons matter more and more. Rollins is almost certainly the best of the players who had to spend peak years in the minors aside from those we can ignore those years like Bower. And we can look at players as good as Ed Belfour and see a shaky middle to the career and wonder, in a 6 team league, would he have gotten a second chance?

I dont know how to rank Rollins, but he is one of the most interesting puzzles.
I agree with everything you say. I spent about 20 hours on my Rollins biography, and I can't even draw a 'conclusive conclusion'. Like I said before, the best would be to be able to talk with players and coaches who saw him play extensively and could really tell us how good he was or how well he compared against the plethora of amazing goaltender of the 1950's. He's a tough fellow to rank, but no doubt he's better than the 42-44th goaltender of All-Time.

On a sidenote, Pelletier wrote in his biography of Rollins that in the 1952-53 season, Rollns received on average 38 shots a game. That season, he played all 70 games and let in 175 goals, for a save percentage of .934! I'm not sure where Pelletier got his numbers, but if those numbers are right and considering how awful those Blackhawks team were, that 1952-53 season is on par with any season Dominik Hasek with the Buffalo Sabres. Joseph cannot top that by any means.

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04-03-2011, 02:27 AM
  #266
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Sorrell deserved to fall from his usual spot... but not this much. Good pick.

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Old
04-03-2011, 02:31 AM
  #267
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I am not convinced (yet?) that rollins was a top 2 goaltender in any season, let alone 3 of them. Tell me more..

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04-03-2011, 02:33 AM
  #268
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I am not convinced (yet?) that rollins was a top 2 goaltender in any season, let alone 3 of them. Tell me more..
I wrote everything I had in my biography and the conclusion afterwards (+ the little tidbits of Rollins save percentages in 1952-53). Tell why you aren't convince and I will reply to you later (I'm going to work in 10 minutes).

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04-03-2011, 02:50 AM
  #269
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I'm going to bed, but two points:

1) until someone explains to me just why I'm supposed to believe that Johnny bower played behind the worst defense in the league, I think retroactive save percentage is worth exactly zero.

2) the writers never voted rollins one of the top 2 goalies in the league, and IMO, the burden is really on you to show why we should discard the postseason all-star teams. I place a huge amount of stock into pre-1967 all star teams, probably more than most GMs.

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04-03-2011, 03:09 AM
  #270
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
so, what if we can't find someone? then what?

and please give me an example of what the conflict of interest might be. I'm just trying to understand here.
pappyline is a great example of a possible replacement candidate. He just posted on the last page. Someone like TC who backed out at the last minute due to the entire draft being overwhelming (sorry if I'm misquoting) might be interested in participating on a temporary basis. BM67 is around quite a bit, and would be an absolute god send to any team that needs picks covered for. There's three off the top of my head, and a small PM campaign with a brief explanation of the situation could hopefully uncover more.

As for an example of conflict of interest; obviously, we won't see anyone picking Aki Berg for a skipped pick, but there could be issues that are more subtle. I'm not accusing anyone here of having ill intentions, but for example, Team A has a a strong backend with six capable defenseman, and a forward group with gaping holes in the bottom-6. Team A is in my conference, and having missed so many picks is likely to match up with Team X in the first round, who is the heavy favourite to win their division. I have a feeling that I'll match up with Team X in the conference finals...thing is, he has a couple of injury prone players (his first pairing is Bobby Orr and Sami Salo...). On behalf of Team A, I select a fourth line of Matt Cooke, Jesse Boulerice and Trevor Gillies to give the teams bottom-6 an identity. The spare defenseman; Bryan Marchment. I could argue that these four players are deserving of roles in an all-time context because their presence as cheapshot artists would be felt, and would cause superstars like Orr to be thrown off their game. While I know this won't work, secretly I'm hoping that when it comes for my turn to match up against Team X, I have the argument that Marchment would've thrown Orr's knee out in the first game of the first round, and that Orr wouldn't even be playing in my series. I take a page out of the seventieslord guidebook and spin these points () to no end, and voila, I've won my series because I dubbed Bobby Orr to be MIA thanks to Bryan Marchment.

Obviously, this is unlikely to happen. As a collective group, I think everyone here respects the history of hockey too much to pull a stunt like this. Second, if any of us tried to pull **** like this and draft Boulerice, we'd all call them out. Hell, seventies got **** on for his April Fools joke of Zenon Konopka. Thing is though, best avoid any potential conflict of interest, if possible. Same reason why when voting comes around, we send them to a GM in the opposite conference. If however after exploring the route of outside replacements yields no results, I don't have a problem with seventies or anyone else stepping in. If others are against that though, maybe even have a buddy system between two GM's of different teams discuss and agree on the picks so that there's no possible conflict.

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04-03-2011, 03:19 AM
  #271
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Obviously, this is unlikely to happen.
Yes, because it's absolutely ridiculous.

Sorry, I'm not convinced of the "conflict of interest" - but more importantly, clearly a handful of others see it as a potential issue, even if no one has given me a concrete reason why.

I will reach out to some others and see what can be arranged.

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04-03-2011, 03:53 AM
  #272
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Yes, because it's absolutely ridiculous.

Sorry, I'm not convinced of the "conflict of interest" - but more importantly, clearly a handful of others see it as a potential issue, even if no one has given me a concrete reason why.

I will reach out to some others and see what can be arranged.
Okay here's a less ridiculous reason: Player X would fill a perfect need for team with skipped picks, but I'd really like him to fall to me. I'll just pick Player Y for them instead, who is slightly worse, but could be seen by some as equal, and spun as a better fit for that team, maybe...

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04-03-2011, 04:19 AM
  #273
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OK guys, I have to do something here. Nighthawks has 7 missed picks, chaos has 5, and advantage has 4. They have all been messaged multiple times.

But in one way or another, I need to get these missed picks made up, and not just at the end of the draft. What do you think? I don't know of any veteran GMs who have offered to step in. I don't know that there is really time to put together a "veteran panel" to make decent picks for these teams, either. I would like to just make it fairly quick, like a band-aid. I could just go over their rosters, determine what they need, and pick from my shortlist.

Does anyone see a problem with that?
A HUGE problem. I have ran the ATD many times and never let the situation get this bad. AGGRESSIVE recruiting of replacement GMs should have happened rounds ago and definitely should be done now. The very person partially responsible for the depth of this situation ought not be the guy who gets all the fun of picking, especiall when it undermines the integrity of the league. It is crap.

EITHER recruit replacement GMs from outside of the draft (past ATD GMs like pappy or Hockey Outsier) OR wait until the draft is over and then do a group vote process of players who weren't drated but are deserving Top-1000 picks.

I am emphatically against seventieslord's plan on so many levels!!!!!

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04-03-2011, 04:33 AM
  #274
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Old
04-03-2011, 04:53 AM
  #275
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Yes, because it's absolutely ridiculous.

Sorry, I'm not convinced of the "conflict of interest" - but more importantly, clearly a handful of others see it as a potential issue, even if no one has given me a concrete reason why.

I will reach out to some others and see what can be arranged.
The concrete reason is that no one wants to select for a proxy team players that he actually wants on his own roster. I think this would have been much less an issue in previous drafts because the talent was still thick enough in the spares part of the draft that it sort of didn't matter, but we're really starting to scrape the bottom of the barrel here where even the MLD rosters are getting heavily picked over.

Also, the thinner the talent gets, the more it counts to "get your guy". After my top-4 picks, I have had the feeling through this entire draft that the fate of my team was hanging on a knife's edge and that every pick had to be a hit in order to build a winner. I never had that feeling in past drafts and regularly made "luxury" picks like Bill Gadsby as #2 defenseman, Peter Stastny as #2 center, etc. In past drafts, I pretty much blew off research for my 4th line, 3rd pairing and spares, knowing that I could just sort of throw something together from the richness of the hockey universe and it would work out. And it did work out. My bottom unit guys were always just sort of "there", and were generally pretty good, but were never really important to the team.

In this draft, every single one of my bottom unit guys is playing a meaningful special teams role for the simple reason that as talent thins out specialists become more viable picks, and I have ended up drafting a few of them on my top units: Coffey (no PK), Burrows (no PP), Guerin (no special teams), Balon (no special teams), etc. I feel like at 40 teams we're getting quite close to a scenario where ATD teams are about as good as a good O6 team (to say nothing of the dynasty Habs), and are perhaps most efficiently put together with that model in mind. O6 teams were notorious for filling their bottom lines with special teams specialists (especially penalty-killers) and conserving the icetime of their top unit guys as much as possible. This was generally pappyline's team-building philosophy during his time as an ATD GM, and while I thought it was sort of unnecessary then, I find myself doing much the same thing now.

It's sort of a shame about all these missed picks because bottom-unit and spare players are more important than ever in this draft, in my opinion. But of course the conflict of interest comes precisely from how important they are. No easy solutions here, but at any rate I really don't think we should have active GMs making the picks for these teams.

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