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Leafs to honour Sundin next season

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Old
04-01-2011, 12:17 PM
  #376
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Originally Posted by shack23 View Post
Now, as for you Mr. The Fartitech, i believe that you were the very first one to say that Little Boy Blue had stood tall with his fellow Hall of Fame players. Did you even go to the sight i provided to show that Sittler actually stood beside, and tried to protect Eagleson ? Or did C.B.C. make all of that up just to shake you out of your warm, fuzzy place ? Yea Sittlers some great leader, Eagleson gives him an undeserving free pass to the Hall of fame, and he turns around and poops in the players face who actually deserved to be in there. I don't know how this guy can even show his face around those old players that were ripped off by Eagleson. And rest assured that your not gonna slip some Bull **** story like that past me.
You just keep displaying your maturity, and losing credibility with every post you make. I'm not even dignifying that with a response.
Undeserving.

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God i can't believe im seeing this, are you actually comparing Sundin to Howe ? Isn't it a little early to be drinking?
Not at all but you asked where Sundin's scoring trophies were compared to Howe, and I was just showing how one of them might have gotten a bit more help than the other.
Gilbert Perreault doesn't have any scoring trophies, is he undeserving of having his number raised, let alone being inducted into the HHOF?

As for Mogilny, he was already past his prime by the time he came to the Leafs.

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04-01-2011, 01:20 PM
  #377
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You are a piece of work...different eras completely...you cannot compare Hull/Howe/Lindsay...any of the original 6 players with modern day players...you cannot. There really is nothing to compare. The game is different big time...there are 30 teams and NOT 6...the rules have drastically changed...the equipment has changed...Mats had no Art Ross or Hart Trophies but many great players never won those trophies......Stanley Cups? Has nothing to do with individuals...it really is a team award....can't you comprehend that?

Are you telling me that Chris Osgood is every bit as good as Martin Broduer because they won the same amount of Cups? John Madden has won 3 Stanley Cups..so does that mean he is a better hockey player than Marcel Dionne...Mats Sundin...Joe Sakic etc...? Of course not...stop being such a blowhard. Its stinkin up the joint.
Young Jedi, you have to be the most confusing person i have ever tried to have a conversation with. S l o w l y n o w . I think i understand about the changes to the players and the game.( O.K. i got that.) Changes to equipment and rules ( still with ya ) Mats never had "no" Art Ross Trophy or Hart trophy . ( good to this point ) O .K . I got it, what you are trying to say is that Mats played in an era where he won nothing, And Howe played in an era where he won everything . I dont know what in the hell your talking about with Osgood and Madden . and im completly lost with the reference to Dionne and Sakic. and you want me to stop being a blowhard. Gotcha big feller !

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04-02-2011, 07:23 AM
  #378
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Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post
Big difference in many factors areas. No Mogilny, Roberts, Niewy and the rules changes were all huge factors. That's pretty obvious, it was much more than just goaltending.

Everyone I've ever spoken to or heard from sides with Sittler and says that the hiring of the Imlach era was the start of his downfall. Imlach tore apart a decent Leafs team and they never recovered under Ballard. It would've been very easy for them to stay the course with Sittler and make other moves as necessary, instead they decided to trade good players to force Sittler out to make a point. I don't blame Sittler for management's stupidity, that wasn't his issue.
Of course Imlach tore apart the team, He'd had enough of Sittler and wanted him out of Dodge. Sittler couldn't be traded,( period ). But there were still rumours of a big trade. All of a sudden Lanny McDonald's on his way to Denver. If there was anything obvious about Imlach, it is that he was not a poser. he managed the game with a tunnel vision and was never in his career afraid to trade a guy out of town, or in the old days bury him deep in the minors. He was not to be trifled with. If everybody else predicted that somebody was being moved, why couldn't Sittler? He had to have known that someone was going, and it sure wasn't going to be him. This is where my main issues are with Sittler, My honest opinion is that he stood by ,and knowingly watched on, as one or more of his teamates got moved for something that they were not involved in. Sittler should have been able to identify that the relationship between him and Imlach was at an end. Either him or Imlach had to go. So what was he trying to prove to himself, his team mates and the fans by refusing to go. THAT would have been the simple solution. But instead he chose to watch as one by one, his team mates and supposed friends be traded away. Sittler was a great player, team mate and captain as long as everything was going exactly the way he wanted it to go. His later battles with both Philadelphia and Detroit management made it clear that he was a very selfish player, and would stop at nothing to get his own way.

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04-02-2011, 10:01 AM
  #379
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Originally Posted by shack23 View Post
Of course Imlach tore apart the team, He'd had enough of Sittler and wanted him out of Dodge. Sittler couldn't be traded,( period ). But there were still rumours of a big trade. All of a sudden Lanny McDonald's on his way to Denver. If there was anything obvious about Imlach, it is that he was not a poser. he managed the game with a tunnel vision and was never in his career afraid to trade a guy out of town, or in the old days bury him deep in the minors. He was not to be trifled with. If everybody else predicted that somebody was being moved, why couldn't Sittler? He had to have known that someone was going, and it sure wasn't going to be him. This is where my main issues are with Sittler, My honest opinion is that he stood by ,and knowingly watched on, as one or more of his teamates got moved for something that they were not involved in. Sittler should have been able to identify that the relationship between him and Imlach was at an end. Either him or Imlach had to go. So what was he trying to prove to himself, his team mates and the fans by refusing to go. THAT would have been the simple solution. But instead he chose to watch as one by one, his team mates and supposed friends be traded away. Sittler was a great player, team mate and captain as long as everything was going exactly the way he wanted it to go. His later battles with both Philadelphia and Detroit management made it clear that he was a very selfish player, and would stop at nothing to get his own way.
You've been dodging my posts for the past few days and now you've decided to go back and quote something you responded to 4 days ago and that we're already gone through? We've had this discussion before, if you want my response go back 3-4 pages and you'll find it. If you'd like to discuss my other comments that shoot down your Sundin's contract, endorsement and linemates theory, you're welcome to do so.

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04-02-2011, 02:55 PM
  #380
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Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post
You've been dodging my posts for the past few days and now you've decided to go back and quote something you responded to 4 days ago and that we're already gone through? We've had this discussion before, if you want my response go back 3-4 pages and you'll find it. If you'd like to discuss my other comments that shoot down your Sundin's contract, endorsement and linemates theory, you're welcome to do so.
I apologize if i've hurt your feelings by not responding to your posts. I scrolled back to page eleven but could not find anything of significance. I can assure you that i am not avoiding anyone. Some posts i consider interesting enough to debate, others i don't. But please feel free to repost the subject you wish to discuss.

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04-02-2011, 11:11 PM
  #381
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Originally Posted by hockeyfanz View Post
Sure.....Howe would have racked up all those great accolades had it not been for his 26 NHL seasons (most of which were played in a 6 team league)....I'm not saying he wasn't great but his biggest accomplishments were due to the fact that he played in 26 NHL seasons and was the only player to play into his 50s and he played on a team with his two SONS....not diminishing his greatness...just sayin...Most of his records points/goals etc..were due to the fact that he played for so long. His PPG were not much more than 1PPG whether playoff or regular season. He was one of the greatest players ever...but largely due to the fact that he played for so long. Had he played as many games as say Peter Forsberg, I doubt he would have been such a legend.

I guess its a hard concept for you to comprehend.
In this thread, I'm on your side of the fence (look at my previous posts) but your comments on Howe are not even on the playing field.

In the 50s and the early 60s, Howe was probably the most dominant player in the NHL, this coming from someone who grew up idolizing Maurice Richard.

Maurice was fire and passion, Gordie was a cool assassin.

I prefer fire and passion, but Howe was something else.

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04-03-2011, 01:42 AM
  #382
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I think comparing any players that played from 1990 and up to player who played before that is just silly.
Hockey is different now. It's much harder to score,it's much faster and it's much more physical. If Crosby and OV played in 60's the way they play now,they would probably score 100 goals every season. That's just an example.

So Howe/Sundin talk is pointless.

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04-03-2011, 01:51 PM
  #383
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Originally Posted by iArts View Post
I think comparing any players that played from 1990 and up to player who played before that is just silly.
Hockey is different now. It's much harder to score,it's much faster and it's much more physical. If Crosby and OV played in 60's the way they play now,they would probably score 100 goals every season. That's just an example.

So Howe/Sundin talk is pointless.
Thank you IArts for the logical perspective...its not possible to compare players from different eras....especially from Original 6. If you compare them relatively speaking that is different...like Howe was as dominant to the sport in his era as Gretzky or Lemieux were dominant in their era but to compare actual skill sets of players now and then in general is foolish..
IE...size,strength,conditioning,shot speed,skating speed etc....Like you mentioned today's players would have been insanely good in the old days....;.I would say that if Crosby or Ovechkin even had have played in the high flying Oiler heydays...they would have been scary...Id say getting Gretzky like numbers. But to place them back into a capsule and drop them in say 1955?

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04-03-2011, 01:56 PM
  #384
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Originally Posted by beauchamp View Post
In this thread, I'm on your side of the fence (look at my previous posts) but your comments on Howe are not even on the playing field.

In the 50s and the early 60s, Howe was probably the most dominant player in the NHL, this coming from someone who grew up idolizing Maurice Richard.

Maurice was fire and passion, Gordie was a cool assassin.

I prefer fire and passion, but Howe was something else.
Hey man..don't get me wrong...I'm not saying Mr. Hockey wasn't great but even his biggest fan cannot deny that his legacy is largely due to his endurance...I mean what he accomplished is insane when you think about it...nobody I believe will ever come close to playing as long as he did in any sport let alone a physically demanding sport like hockey. 26 seasons in the NHL alone..he also played quite a few in the WHA...playing on the same team as his two sons and playing well into his 50's...Crazy. Thats all I'm saying. He was a great player as well but that record of being ageless is probably more insurmountable than Gretzkys 92 goals and 212 points.

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04-03-2011, 03:32 PM
  #385
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Records
NHL
Tied-most regular season overtime goals (15, shared with Jaromír Jágr, Sergei Fedorov and Patrik Eliáš)
Tied-20th in career goals (564, shared with Joe Nieuwendyk)
32nd in career assists (785)
25th all time in career points (1349)
First European-born and trained player to be drafted first overall in the NHL Entry Draft (1989 by the Quebec Nordiques)
Longest serving European-born and trained captain of an NHL franchise in league history (10 seasons)
Only Swedish player to reach the 500 goal milestone (564)
Most career points, goals and assists by a Swedish hockey player
Tied-Fastest overtime goal (6 seconds, shared with Alexander Ovechkin, Simon Gagné and David Legwand)
First Swedish player to reach 1000 points
One of two players (Marcel Dionne) to record at least 20 goals in his first 16 NHL seasons
Most games played by a European born-and-trained forward (1346)

Toronto Maple Leafs
Goals (420)
Assists by a forward (587)
Points (987)
Tied-assists in a period (3, Darcy Tucker, Matt Stajan and Clarke MacArthur)

Awards and achievements
TV-pucken Champion as part of Team Stockholm 1986.
Swedish Champion in 1990.
First European born player to be drafted first overall in the NHL Entry Draft. (1989)
Named to the Elitserien World All-Star Team in 1991, 1992, 1994 and 1998.
Recipient of the Viking Award in 1993, 1994, 1997, and 2002.
Named to the World Championships All-Star Team in 1992 and 2003.
World Championships' Best Forward in 1992.
Named to the Canada Cup All-Star Team in 1991.
Named to the World Cup of Hockey All-Star Team in 1996.
Played in the NHL All-Star Game in 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003 (injured) and 2004.
Named to the NHL Second All-Star Team in 2002 and 2004.
Named to the Olympic Tournament All-Star Team in 2002.
Captain of the Swedish national ice hockey team in the 2006 Olympics in which Sweden acquired the gold medal.
Achieved 500 goal plateau on October 14, 2006.
Achieved 1,300 points on February 7, 2008 vs the Montreal Canadiens.
Awarded the "Mark Messier Leadership Award" in 2008.

NHL totals 1346 GP 564G 785A 1349PTS 1093PIM
Playoffs 91GP 38G 44A 82PTS 74PIM
Senior int'l totals 65GP 31G 46A 77PTS 52PIM
Source

He will most certainly be in the HOCKEY Hall Of Fame, only question remaining is which ballot?

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04-03-2011, 05:25 PM
  #386
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Interesting thread.

As an Englishman, I have enjoyed watching hockey for a long time, maybe 10 years or so of NHL hockey. It was on twice a week at 1:30am so it was always an event for me and my roommate (Me Leafs, him Detroit).

Sundin was the captain when I started watching and loving the Leafs. He was undoubtedly a superbly gifted player and a true leader, as attested by his team mates. His numbers really do show his ability - yes he played for many years but he consistently produced very good numbers.

One must remember the great players we had all those years ago, the likes of Mogilny etc who were true elite players and could support a player like Sundin, we were always a top team, falling at the late hurdles.

Then the lockout and the horrendous management of this team continued. Poor contracts and mediocre players (Poni, Antro) partnered with Sunin, yet the same expectation. Constantly missing the playoffs became the norm and our status as a team fell as well as the expectation. Finally Sundin's good years were behind him and, as captain, he wanted to complete his tenure as an NHL player here, at least at the time, he had no desire to be traded and the Leafs lost out on significant return. More poor management continued the demise of our team, until we were basement dwellars, struggling with little to no elite talent and clinging on to a ethos that was outdated and superseded with new protocols in a cap era NHL.

I personally was bitter about Sundin not being traded - he had the opportunity to complete a fantastic career on a contender and provide us with the building blocks for a better future. Neither happened and Sundin will be a great player that, although with great success for his country, won no Stanley Cups. For me, it just made no sense that he didn't go to a contender, as it would have suited both parties. He was the captain of our team, 'bled blue and white' - it would have been the perfect parting gift.

I do not begrudge Sundin his plaudits, he deserves them for his superb play, although I think Belfour deserves them as much. I remember Sundin's goals and assists but my goodness do I remember 'HOLY MACKINAW' time after time due to Eddie stopping endless goal-bound pucks and saving us game after game.

Just my 2 cents as an Englishman who loves hockey and wishes Sundin the best, good for him but my god how we needed to trade him.

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04-03-2011, 07:10 PM
  #387
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Originally Posted by hockeyfanz View Post
Thank you IArts for the logical perspective...its not possible to compare players from different eras....especially from Original 6. If you compare them relatively speaking that is different...like Howe was as dominant to the sport in his era as Gretzky or Lemieux were dominant in their era but to compare actual skill sets of players now and then in general is foolish..
IE...size,strength,conditioning,shot speed,skating speed etc....Like you mentioned today's players would have been insanely good in the old days....;.I would say that if Crosby or Ovechkin even had have played in the high flying Oiler heydays...they would have been scary...Id say getting Gretzky like numbers. But to place them back into a capsule and drop them in say 1955?
Relativity does not mean dropping someone into a time capsule. It means'' all things being equal '' What if the modern players of today had been born and brought up during that era ? Wouldn't they have had exactly the same training methods, exactly the same gear, same diets and same coaching ? Now, what if the older player had been born in the modern era , would the situations have been be exactly reversed ? you obviously did not see any of these players play, so how are you able to form subjective opinion? Because your Grandfather was born 50 years before you, does that In someway make him a lesser man than you ? The time capsule theory wasn't a bad try. although i do think that the hollow deck would work much better. ( in the name of humanity Scotty.... Please beam young Jedi up. )

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04-03-2011, 07:33 PM
  #388
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Originally Posted by DirtyDion03 View Post
What if on the night of Sundin talks to Kadri and says he's fine with him wearing the #13? Can you imagine what that'd do for Kadri's confidence?
Didn't Kadri wear #91 in London? He should switch to that, can't see him taking #13.. Sundin has the alltime points for the Leafs. People better cheer for him, the guy was our team for so many years! He never wanted to even leave

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04-03-2011, 09:58 PM
  #389
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Originally Posted by shack23 View Post
I apologize if i've hurt your feelings by not responding to your posts. I scrolled back to page eleven but could not find anything of significance. I can assure you that i am not avoiding anyone. Some posts i consider interesting enough to debate, others i don't. But please feel free to repost the subject you wish to discuss.
You must be soft irl if you are advocating throwing aside a signed and sealed contract because the other party is throwing a temper tantrum. I don't even bother to read your stories about Imlach and Sittler anymore, they don't matter; they are irrelevant.

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04-03-2011, 10:08 PM
  #390
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Does anyone think that Sundin's number should be retired rather than just honoured?

I think that if he stuck it out here and retired as a Leaf, that might've happened, but with the way things ended, it's just not going happen.

Also, I realized they only retire numbers for the deceased but I mean, it's Sundin.

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04-03-2011, 10:13 PM
  #391
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If the Leafs aren't going to retire Keon's, I don't know how you could think they should retire Sundin's...

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04-03-2011, 10:15 PM
  #392
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Originally Posted by Sergei Berezin View Post
Does anyone think that Sundin's number should be retired rather than just honoured?

I think that if he stuck it out here and retired as a Leaf, that might've happened, but with the way things ended, it's just not going happen.

Also, I realized they only retire numbers for the deceased but I mean, it's Sundin.
I think so. Considering he is the alltime leader in points, I think it makes sense. The guy never wanted to leave too.

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04-03-2011, 11:27 PM
  #393
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I think so. Considering he is the alltime leader in points, I think it makes sense. The guy never wanted to leave too.
I don't think they will retire it, as per their policy.

But it might as well be. Can't imagine anyone going near that number anytime soon.

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04-03-2011, 11:49 PM
  #394
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Originally Posted by TheDreaming View Post
If the Leafs aren't going to retire Keon's, I don't know how you could think they should retire Sundin's...
it's not an issue of them not wanting to honour Keon, it's Keon not believing in the whole 'honouring' thing, IIRC

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04-04-2011, 12:17 AM
  #395
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it's not an issue of them not wanting to honour Keon, it's Keon not believing in the whole 'honouring' thing, IIRC
That and he's reportedly still holding a grudge at the Leafs for what Ballard did. The guy has only been to two Leaf alumni events since he retired. One was a game for retired players at MLG in the 1990s, the other was at the 1967 reunion game a couple years ago. He even declined an invitation to be at the closing of the Gardens.

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04-04-2011, 08:38 AM
  #396
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You must be soft irl if you are advocating throwing aside a signed and sealed contract because the other party is throwing a temper tantrum. I don't even bother to read your stories about Imlach and Sittler anymore, they don't matter; they are irrelevant.
What in heavens name is " Soft Irl " ?

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04-04-2011, 08:54 AM
  #397
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What in heavens name is " Soft Irl " ?
soft in real life

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04-04-2011, 09:56 AM
  #398
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Originally Posted by OrrKO28 View Post
it's not an issue of them not wanting to honour Keon, it's Keon not believing in the whole 'honouring' thing, IIRC
I read on Berger's blog that Keon wants to his number to be retired but the Leafs don't want to do that and change up their system. If they're not willing to change their system for Keon, why would they for Sundin is what I'm thinking.

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04-04-2011, 12:55 PM
  #399
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Fantastic, Sundin was the best leafs Captain ever.

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04-04-2011, 01:01 PM
  #400
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Inevitable.

Throw me in with the lot who feel his number should never be worn again.

Really wish the Leafs did away with that "honouring" business. Some numbers really should be retired.

#13 is one of them.

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