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I propose that a Shootout Specialist is worth more to a team than a Goon

View Poll Results: Which would you rather have?
The best heavyweight in the league to protect your team. (Not a great in game player) 14 11.97%
The best shootout specialist in the league, just in case. (Not a great in game player) 78 66.67%
Neither, don't waste a spot for them. 25 21.37%
Voters: 117. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
04-04-2011, 08:45 AM
  #51
SingnBluesOnBroadway
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Originally Posted by jniklast View Post
I really don't see how one heavyweight fighting another protects any goalie from being run?
I don't know either. For that matter, I didn't notice any more or any less instances of Lundqvist getting run or not getting run depending on whether Boogaard was in the line up or not.

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04-04-2011, 09:18 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by jniklast View Post
I really don't see how one heavyweight fighting another protects any goalie from being run?
yeah only way its really a deterent is if the heavyweight shows that he/the team are willing to take the instigator and feel they can kill the penalty...that might create the fear among those other players that boogaard will pound them and take the extra 2 minutes

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04-04-2011, 09:28 AM
  #53
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ideally you don't have any specialist and have all guys that can actually play on your 4th line...

but if you are going to use a specialist that to me means you aren't planning to use your 4th line on regular shifts since the 'specialist' can't actually play...so if that is the case then it shouldn't be an either/or situation. you might as well use all the slots for specialist some combo of pp/shootout specialist, faceoff/pk specialist, goon.

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04-04-2011, 09:29 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by CM PUNK View Post
yeah only way its really a deterent is if the heavyweight shows that he/the team are willing to take the instigator and feel they can kill the penalty...that might create the fear among those other players that boogaard will pound them and take the extra 2 minutes
But if they did that, wouldn't it make it more likely that the goalie would get run? Once you get an instigator, you're a real disadvantage.

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04-04-2011, 10:15 AM
  #55
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shoot out guy.....all day everyday

pure enforcer = completely worthless and after this season i cant fathom how anyone would argue anything different

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04-04-2011, 02:31 PM
  #56
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I went with shootout specialist. If he is better at the shootout theres probably a decent chance that he can also contribute to scoring during regulation itself, while the goon's role would strictly be limited to going after the opposing team's players. And even though there is no shootout in the playoffs, the points the specialist could potentially get during the season might be the difference between the team making the playoffs or not (or get a better seed).

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04-04-2011, 03:28 PM
  #57
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I hate seeing Prust/Avery (both of which i believe play EXTREMELY valuable roles) get their faces punched in and go to the box because we have no one else to fight the tough guys of the league.

It is not a good trade off, it robs momentum, either takes our crowd out of gets the opposition crowd in to the game.

...and to those that say "they dont have to fight" ...that is not an option.

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04-04-2011, 03:41 PM
  #58
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I accept your proposal. But I would prefer a hybrid goon, ala a younger Todd Bertuzzi (career: 11/33= 33.33)

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04-04-2011, 06:40 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beef 4 lunch View Post
I hate seeing Prust/Avery (both of which i believe play EXTREMELY valuable roles) get their faces punched in and go to the box because we have no one else to fight the tough guys of the league.


It is not a good trade off, it robs momentum, either takes our crowd out of gets the opposition crowd in to the game.

...and to those that say "they dont have to fight" ...that is not an option.
Good point and what I have been trying to say all year.


20 out of 30 teams incorporate a goon and until they become obsolete, I want one on my team.

If I could subtract EC, Wolski and Gilroy and replace them with Clowe, Neil and John Erskine, it would eliminate the need for a Goon...but I am just a goon lover, what do I know.

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04-04-2011, 06:55 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beef 4 lunch View Post
I hate seeing Prust/Avery (both of which i believe play EXTREMELY valuable roles) get their faces punched in and go to the box because we have no one else to fight the tough guys of the league.

It is not a good trade off, it robs momentum, either takes our crowd out of gets the opposition crowd in to the game.

...and to those that say "they dont have to fight" ...that is not an option.
Why not?

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04-04-2011, 07:42 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by DubiDubiDoo View Post
I think he can if he's used properly, the problem is pointless goon on goon fights.
Todays coach and goon needs to accept the penalty when a player like Hank gets run, and the retribution isn't boogaard fighting Carcillo, its boogaard grabbing Giroux and pummelling him.

Yes, we get penalized, but eventually teams will not risk their best players getting pummeled in order to 1)run hank, or 2)get a powerplay.

Neither is worth a broken facial bone in your star players

Been saying this for years. When Colton Orr bashed Ovechkin's face in for running Lunqvist, he earned his money for the season. That's what a goon is supposed to do.

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04-04-2011, 08:05 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Why not?
well, there are only so many fights a guy can duck. I think shying away from a physical challenge has a mental consequence.

Turning the other cheek and taking it to them on the scoreboard is an option though. but guys like Prust will step up. he even said during a between the period interview and it made me chuckle.

I'd rather have someone that will not only step up instead of Prust but smash the other guy and pump up the team.

..that's just me.

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04-05-2011, 01:29 AM
  #63
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Team toughness triumphs over a goon any day, whereas there's nothing team about the shootout whether some would like to admit it or not.

Boogaard at this point is CLEARLY a waste of money and unless you want to call Prust a goon we're CLEARLY fine without one, long as we have the kind of players like Girardi, Sauer, Prust, Boyle, Callahan, Dubinsky, etc.

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04-05-2011, 01:32 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
I guess u don't mind seeing guys flying into Hank.

Guys like Sauer who give it there all do not strike fear in opposing players...he might be willing to fight but he is not very good at it...same for Boyle, Dubi, Cally and the like...to be successful you have to be able to protect your assests.

Prust is the only guy on the team who can fight, but we have him fighting guys 4-6 taller than him and 30-50 heavier....that can't last.

figthing doesn't win hockey games...but protecting your star players does...the Rangers have to incorporate more size and grit into their lineup if they truly want to make a run at the cup.

Boogard is on this team for the next 3 years...most of you don't like it but we might as well try to make it work...limit him to the games were it is a must to have him in the lineup and bring in Ryan Clowe...maybe both of our 2nd round picks would entice San Jose, that man is a absolute beast and he would go a very long way into protecting the people on our team that need to be protected.
The Sauer's of the league scare players a lot more than the Boogaard's of the league. You really think a guy that can be outskated by some of the people on this message board bothers anyone in the new NHL? Even if he catches up to anyone to do anything, it's not like Boogaard has a lot of options if a guy doesn't want to fight or is out of his weight class (which is most of the league).

For all we know Boogaard is as good as retired...on this team for 3 years.

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04-05-2011, 01:34 AM
  #65
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I don't understand why people think Hank being run is still some problem where we need to take vigilante justice for. We've had the correct response any time that it's happened this season. And I can't remember a time it was definitely on purpose since Jason Blake did it when he was still on Toronto.

But sure, let's pay someone $1.8 mil a year to be a watered down hitman.

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04-05-2011, 01:37 AM
  #66
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A shootout specialist may show a sign of brilliance as often as the media catches Sather NOT sucking on a cigar, which is almost never.

A goon can put that shootout specialist on the shelf by laying a clean, heavy hit and those occur as much as Drury scoring a goal.

I think this team needs another player who has had a history of concussions.

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04-05-2011, 01:49 AM
  #67
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I'll take the goon that can contribute something to the fourth line. And I'll take the shootout specialist that can also contribute something to any of the 4 lines. One of each please.

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04-05-2011, 01:54 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surf View Post
Did you really mention Prust in the same sentence with Lucic and Lindros? Really?
I rather have a fighter who can play on special teams, be reliable in his own end, and can provide some offense. Like Brandon Prust, Milan Lucic, Eric Lindros. You don't have to be a 30 or even a 20 goal scorer but be able to fight and have some assets to your game.

My point being Prust can kill penalties, be reliable in his own end, provide some offense and be able to drop the gloves. Lindros is a great player and he would drop the gloves when needed (before all the concussions lol). Lucic is another player who isn't afraid to drop the gloves and is a very skilled player. Not the same skill as Lindros but he is skilled.

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04-05-2011, 02:23 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by NYRandazzo View Post
I rather have a fighter who can play on special teams, be reliable in his own end, and can provide some offense. Like Brandon Prust, Milan Lucic, Eric Lindros. You don't have to be a 30 or even a 20 goal scorer but be able to fight and have some assets to your game.

My point being Prust can kill penalties, be reliable in his own end, provide some offense and be able to drop the gloves. Lindros is a great player and he would drop the gloves when needed (before all the concussions lol). Lucic is another player who isn't afraid to drop the gloves and is a very skilled player. Not the same skill as Lindros but he is skilled.
Everything you mentioned of Prust is true, which is why I bought his Jersey, but the one thing you are forgetting, Prust is 5"10 and 190lbs at the most, if you are ok with him fighting Lucic, Boulton, Andrew Peters, eventually, he is going to get caught and get hurt, then you lose all of the intangiblies you mentioned.

You can't have one guy on your team who is tough and think you have the toughness aspect of the game covered.

Philly - Carcillo, Shelley, Coburn, Hartnell, Powe, Richards, Boyton, O'Donnell and Pronger.

Pens - Godard, Rupp, Engelland, Adams, Asham, Cooke, Tangradi and Kunitz

Bruins - Lucic, Chara, Boychuck, McQuaid, Campbell, Horton, Ference and Shane Hnidy.

Rangers - Prust, do you really want Dubi, Sauer, Cally fighting, that only makes use weaker.

The aforementioned teams have a balance of skill, grit and fighting.

I love the NY Rangers more than most, I love their heart and determination but there are spots on this team that can be filled with bruisers.

One spot on D and at least 2-3 forward spots that can be filled with rugged guy...it is up to Sather and Clark to fill those spots.

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04-05-2011, 03:01 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
Everything you mentioned of Prust is true, which is why I bought his Jersey, but the one thing you are forgetting, Prust is 5"10 and 190lbs at the most, if you are ok with him fighting Lucic, Boulton, Andrew Peters, eventually, he is going to get caught and get hurt, then you lose all of the intangiblies you mentioned.

You can't have one guy on your team who is tough and think you have the toughness aspect of the game covered.

Philly - Carcillo, Shelley, Coburn, Hartnell, Powe, Richards, Boyton, O'Donnell and Pronger.

Pens - Godard, Rupp, Engelland, Adams, Asham, Cooke, Tangradi and Kunitz

Bruins - Lucic, Chara, Boychuck, McQuaid, Campbell, Horton, Ference and Shane Hnidy.

Rangers - Prust, do you really want Dubi, Sauer, Cally fighting, that only makes use weaker.

The aforementioned teams have a balance of skill, grit and fighting.

I love the NY Rangers more than most, I love their heart and determination but there are spots on this team that can be filled with bruisers.

One spot on D and at least 2-3 forward spots that can be filled with rugged guy...it is up to Sather and Clark to fill those spots.
After this team's experience with Boogaard and Brashear over the past couple of years, I cant believe you're STILL making the case for an outdated goon. You have to be able to play the game to stick in the league these days, and thats a good thing.

But whats more incredible is you still hold onto the same tired argument that Lundqvist is getting run because we dont have a big useless goon on the bench. There is no such thing as a deterrant.

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04-05-2011, 03:31 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
After this team's experience with Boogaard and Brashear over the past couple of years, I cant believe you're STILL making the case for an outdated goon. You have to be able to play the game to stick in the league these days, and thats a good thing.

But whats more incredible is you still hold onto the same tired argument that Lundqvist is getting run because we dont have a big useless goon on the bench. There is no such thing as a deterrant.
Boogaard is on the team for the next 3 years unless they send him to Hartford or he retires...those are the facts...you can cry all you want about it but it wont change a thing...I am trying to figure out how we can utilizes whatever he brings.

How many times you think Thomas, Fluery, Boucher/Bob get run compared to Hank.

Guys might take less liberties knowing they have to answer to Lucic, Shelley, Pronger, Engelland, etc...i dont know, just seems like common sense to me.

But i am just tired.

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04-05-2011, 03:33 PM
  #72
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lol Andrew Peters. One of the worst fighters ever, and retired. So scared of Prust fighting him.

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04-05-2011, 03:37 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
After this team's experience with Boogaard and Brashear over the past couple of years, I cant believe you're STILL making the case for an outdated goon. You have to be able to play the game to stick in the league these days, and thats a good thing.

But whats more incredible is you still hold onto the same tired argument that Lundqvist is getting run because we dont have a big useless goon on the bench. There is no such thing as a deterrant.
Also, just because Sather picked the wrong guys doesn't mean that those players are effective...if you don't see that then you are ignorant or don't know hockey.

How effective was Shelley last year for us or how effective is Shawn Thornton, Matt Carkner, Cody McCormick.

shall I continue?

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04-05-2011, 03:38 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Steven Mastrosimone View Post
lol Andrew Peters. One of the worst fighters ever, and retired. So scared of Prust fighting him.
how about last year when Peters was on the Devils and he was just licking his chops to get after Prust or did you just get on the bandwagon this year...

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04-05-2011, 03:46 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
Boogaard is on the team for the next 3 years unless they send him to Hartford or he retires...those are the facts...you can cry all you want about it but it wont change a thing...I am trying to figure out how we can utilizes whatever he brings.

How many times you think Thomas, Fluery, Boucher/Bob get run compared to Hank.

Guys might take less liberties knowing they have to answer to Lucic, Shelley, Pronger, Engelland, etc...i dont know, just seems like common sense to me.

But i am just tired.
Nobody has to answer anyone in this league. Like it or nor, but most of the guys that run Lundqvist are non-fighters and they'll never fight the guys you just mentioned. And there's even less guys who would fight Boogard.

In the end a goon will only fight other goons and not intimidate anybody else. Maybe with his size, but due to his incredibly slow skating his hitting isn't really efficient either...

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