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The Value of JVR in a trade...

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Old
04-05-2011, 08:32 AM
  #26
Jester
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Just sayin', IF you are moving a player it would be Carter for return value, Briere for cap space. That is a pretty logical statement over moving JvR who fills the LW position which is where this team lacks depth, and he does not have an 11 yr $5+ mill contract over his head.
His name also isn't Jeff Carter.

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04-05-2011, 09:31 AM
  #27
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His name also isn't Jeff Carter.
We'll see after the playoffs, this is a make or break playoff run for Cartsie in O&B.

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04-05-2011, 09:33 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
We'll see after the playoffs, this is a make or break playoff run for Cartsie in O&B.
Eh, I'm pretty sure he's got another decade... and if he doesn't blow up these playoffs, another year of you blathering on about him.

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04-05-2011, 09:44 AM
  #29
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Eh, I'm pretty sure he's got another decade... and if he doesn't blow up these playoffs, another year of you blathering on about him.
What are you going to say if Carter fails to score close to his season averages this year?

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04-05-2011, 10:02 AM
  #30
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Trading Carter is just as bad an idea as trading JVR. Possibly worse.

Unless, of course, you think annual 35-40 goal scoring centers who can also play wing, are good on defense, and can play both PP and PK if needed can be found anywhere at anytime. If you do think that though, you're wrong.

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04-05-2011, 10:19 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
What are you going to say if Carter fails to score close to his season averages this year?
Small samples.

People act like I'm a Carter defender with my view of his playoff production... this is a UNIVERSAL view of production that is completely independent of Jeff Carter. You will not find a single player where I do not hold this view of playoff production about.

As guys play more games, they move closer to mean.

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04-05-2011, 11:09 AM
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The difference between Carter's regular season average and playoff average is like 11 points over 41 games. That's a hot/cold streak away from distorting the numbers towards or away from where they should be given such a small sample

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04-05-2011, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by The Inebriator View Post
The difference between Carter's regular season average and playoff average is like 11 points over 41 games. That's a hot/cold streak away from distorting the numbers towards or away from where they should be given such a small sample
or two broken feet and a separated shoulder

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04-05-2011, 11:17 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Trading Carter is just as bad an idea as trading JVR. Possibly worse.

Unless, of course, you think annual 35-40 goal scoring centers who can also play wing, are good on defense, and can play both PP and PK if needed can be found anywhere at anytime. If you do think that though, you're wrong.
Hypothetically speaking you are not trading Carter for nothing, you are moving him for something of value in return, like maybe a natural winger who can play along the boards? JvR does nothing to improve value in return.

Considering how this team seems to have an ADD mentality it is not about the talent on the roster, but maybe some of the makeup of the mental approach this team takes? Again, I will have a wait and see approach at this point.

Joe Thornton is a 100pt guy, how many SCF's has he been in?

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04-05-2011, 11:30 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Hypothetically speaking you are not trading Carter for nothing, you are moving him for something of value in return, like maybe a natural winger who can play along the boards? JvR does nothing to improve value in return.

Considering how this team seems to have an ADD mentality it is not about the talent on the roster, but maybe some of the makeup of the mental approach this team takes? Again, I will have a wait and see approach at this point.

Joe Thornton is a 100pt guy, how many SCF's has he been in?
How many has Alex Ovechkin been in?

How many have the Sedin twins been in?

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04-05-2011, 11:41 AM
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How many has Alex Ovechkin been in?

How many have the Sedin twins been in?
Kesler too?

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04-05-2011, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Hypothetically speaking you are not trading Carter for nothing, you are moving him for something of value in return, like maybe a natural winger who can play along the boards? JvR does nothing to improve value in return.

Considering how this team seems to have an ADD mentality it is not about the talent on the roster, but maybe some of the makeup of the mental approach this team takes? Again, I will have a wait and see approach at this point.

Joe Thornton is a 100pt guy, how many SCF's has he been in?
You're right.... I would rather have Tyler Kennedy than Joe Thorton

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04-05-2011, 11:46 AM
  #38
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Let's try to keep this from becoming another Carter debate.

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04-05-2011, 11:48 AM
  #39
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There is not value in trading JvR, there is value in moving other players if it becomes a necessity. Now you have to look at who has a NTC/NMC. Maybe Homer should just move Giroux since the golden boys are untouchable?

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04-05-2011, 11:49 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
What are you going to say if Carter fails to score close to his season averages this year?
Carter's goal scoring numbers in the playoffs are comparable to some of the likes Parise,Getzlaf and Perry. Ryan Kelser has THREE playoff goals in 20 plus games. Yet some want him over Jeff Carter. Maybe if the players on Carter's line in the playoffs could finish he would have more points. But some refuse to look at that.
I am far from Jeff Carter's biggest defenders but the hate for him is unwarranted for the most part.

back on topic, I wouldnt trade JVR right now at all.

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04-05-2011, 11:51 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
How many has Alex Ovechkin been in?

How many have the Sedin twins been in?
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Originally Posted by KimiFerrari View Post
Kesler too?
And how many years have they been in the league? Ovechkin could very well be in the same boat if they do not surround him with better playoff guys. The move to get Arnott went somewhat unnoticed, but this could be a very important move for them IMO.

JvR is a keeper, there should not even be a discussion about trading him.

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04-05-2011, 11:52 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
There is not value in trading JvR, there is value in moving other players if it becomes a necessity. Now you have to look at who has a NTC/NMC. Maybe Homer should just move Giroux since the golden boys are untouchable?
Moving any of Giroux, Richards, JVR, Carter makes zero sense. That's as good a young corps as any in the league, and an argument can be made that it's among the best.

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04-05-2011, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Moving any of Giroux, Richards, JVR, Carter makes zero sense. That's as good a young corps as any in the league, and an argument can be made that it's among the best.
It depends. Sometimes you have guys with all the talent but lack the will/want to win, to go the extra level to make it happen. At some point Homer may need to address these issues. Briere is an unmoveable piece given his contract situation and the NMC you can pretty much expect him to be a Flyer. So what other pieces are available to fill needs? Carle, Coburn, Meszaros are all pieces which could go as well.

So from this perspective you may need to address the other issues to move forward. But again, I really want to do a total evaluation of this team once they have completed a playoff run.

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04-05-2011, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
It depends. Sometimes you have guys with all the talent but lack the will/want to win, to go the extra level to make it happen. At some point Homer may need to address these issues. Briere is an unmoveable piece given his contract situation and the NMC you can pretty much expect him to be a Flyer. So what other pieces are available to fill needs? Carle, Coburn, Meszaros are all pieces which could go as well.

So from this perspective you may need to address the other issues to move forward. But again, I really want to do a total evaluation of this team once they have completed a playoff run.
Right now I'm not sure how I feel about moving Carle, Coburn, Mez. I think those three have potential to be good. Not world shattering on their own, but good.

Like you said, we'll see. I think Carle is the weakest link there.

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04-05-2011, 01:13 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Right now I'm not sure how I feel about moving Carle, Coburn, Mez. I think those three have potential to be good. Not world shattering on their own, but good.

Like you said, we'll see. I think Carle is the weakest link there.

So the way you view Carle is the same exact way I view Carter, IF I had to move a fwd it would be Carter.

Carle is having a career year statistically but I am sure there are your reasons as to why you feel he would be expendable. For people who rail Carle if you look at all defensement he ranks #11 in assists, 28th overall in pts, and #7 in +/-. While I do not like using the +/- stat it is more effective in looking at d-men than fwds.

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04-05-2011, 01:15 PM
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So the way you view Carle is the same exact way I view Carter, IF I had to move a fwd it would be Carter.

Carle is having a career year statistically but I am sure there are your reasons as to why you feel he would be expendable. For people who rail Carle if you look at all defensement he ranks #11 in assists, 28th overall in pts, and #7 in +/-. While I do not like using the +/- stat it is more effective in looking at d-men than fwds.
He's weak in his own end, which is something I do not like in defensemen.

Also, I don't view Carle in the same way you view Carter, because I'd prefer to keep him. If someone HAS to be moved from that D, I'd take my chances with Mez over Carle. Thats only if it's absolutely necessary.


Last edited by Beef Invictus: 04-05-2011 at 01:21 PM. Reason: Clarifying
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04-05-2011, 01:18 PM
  #47
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I say "Kablargage" to this thread.

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04-05-2011, 01:20 PM
  #48
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He's weak in his own end, which is something I do not like in defensemen.

Also, I don't view Carle in the same way you do, because I'd prefer to keep him. If someone HAS to be moved from that D, I'd take my chances with Mez over Carle. Thats only if it's absolutely necessary.
I would love to keep Carter if he improved on certain things and becomes a playoff contender. My fear is that when games get tighter, more physical, more of a checking game is he tends to disappear. I'd take my chances with Giroux and JvR, Richards is a 50/50 at this point, if it becomes necessary by a early playoff exit and non-playoff performance.

So we each have our points and now let's see what happens. Hopefully they all show up and the Flyers win a Cup, but their play as of late is less than encouraging.

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04-05-2011, 01:21 PM
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Fair enough.

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04-05-2011, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
And how many years have they been in the league? Ovechkin could very well be in the same boat if they do not surround him with better playoff guys. The move to get Arnott went somewhat unnoticed, but this could be a very important move for them IMO.

JvR is a keeper, there should not even be a discussion about trading him.
For Kesler technically more than Carter and Richards.

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