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Old
04-05-2011, 01:41 PM
  #26
jbeck5
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Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
We sure as hell do need more 3rd liners... 3rd liners, 4th liners, 2nd liners. We need almost everything.
I disagree. We're pretty set for 3rd and 4th line guys going into next year. we need better top tier talent.

We have plenty of guys with the ability to get 20-30 points, be physical, or defensive. Guys competing for those 6 spots this summer are:

Chris Neil
Stephane Da Costa
Nick Foligno
Peter Regin
Bobby Butler
Erik Condra
Colin Greening
Jesse Winchester
Ryan Shannon (if Re-signed)
Zack Smith
Jim O'brien
Roman Wick
Jakub Silfverberg
Kaspars Daugavins
Cody Bass

All these guys will come to camp fighting for a 3rd or 4th line role with the sens in 2011-2012.

The only top 6 forwards we have are Jason Spezza, Milan Michalek, and Daniel Alfredsson. Alfredsson will soon be a 3rd line vet with pp time.

Due to lack of top end depth, certain players from the list above will be forced into a top 6 role they have not proven to be able to handle.

If we want to develop these guys properly, that entire list of players needs to play a year or two on the bottom lines proving themselves before they are put in a position where they are expected to be the to go-to guys offensively(or top 6 forwards if you will). If you don't believe me, look at the past:

Hossa started his career on the third line in 1998-1999 with arvedson and bonk to make a nice checking line with offensive potential.

Havlat started his career on the 4th and third line for several years behind alfredsson's line, and hossa's line until we made room for him in our top 6.

Spezza started his career on JM's 4th line before getting a top 6 role.

So, long story short, we don't need more 3rd and 4th liners as we have an abundance of nhl ready players to fill those roles. We need top tier talents.

I would love our bottom 6 to be this next year:

Foligno-regin-Butler
condra-greening-neil
Smith

Da Costa starts in the AHL to prove himself. Shannon let go. Winchester traded. everyone else in the A.

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04-05-2011, 01:55 PM
  #27
trentmccleary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbeck5 View Post
The only top 6 forwards we have are Jason Spezza, Milan Michalek, and Daniel Alfredsson. Alfredsson will soon be a 3rd line vet with pp time.

Due to lack of top end depth, certain players from the list above will be forced into a top 6 role they have not proven to be able to handle.

If we want to develop these guys properly, that entire list of players needs to play a year or two on the bottom lines proving themselves before they are put in a position where they are expected to be the to go-to guys offensively(or top 6 forwards if you will). If you don't believe me, look at the past:

Hossa started his career on the third line in 1998-1999 with arvedson and bonk to make a nice checking line with offensive potential.

Havlat started his career on the 4th and third line for several years behind alfredsson's line, and hossa's line until we made room for him in our top 6.

Spezza started his career on JM's 4th line before getting a top 6 role.

So, long story short, we don't need more 3rd and 4th liners as we have an abundance of nhl ready players to fill those roles. We need top tier talents.
Do you somehow think that our team is going to look like:

Heatley - Spezza - Alfie
Havlat - Yashin - Hossa

No team looks like that!

We're trying these kids out to find the Bonk, White, Arvedsson, Schaefer and Fisher's of the world. Then we might be able to spread the primary scorers across different lines and develop some chemistry that results in increased production from those secondary scorers.

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04-05-2011, 02:09 PM
  #28
jbeck5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
Do you somehow think that our team is going to look like:

Heatley - Spezza - Alfie
Havlat - Yashin - Hossa

No team looks like that!

We're trying these kids out to find the Bonk, White, Arvedsson, Schaefer and Fisher's of the world. Then we might be able to spread the primary scorers across different lines and develop some chemistry that results in increased production from those secondary scorers.
Our team was never that. Heatley got traded for hossa. Havlat hit the scene after yashin. I agree with spreading the top scorers to make 3 good lines. We need to get proven top 6 fowards to more spots for that to be possible. We always had a mcheachern/smolinski type guy. to play with a star, and a young player.

That means if we sign 2 proven 40-60 point guys(guys like matt cullen for example) then we can deffinately have several solid lines.

UFA-Spezza-young guy
Young guy-UFA-alfredsson
michalek-young guy-young guy
neil and young guys

Whatever the case may be, as it stands now, we only have 3 proven typical "top 6 forwards" and a giant cluster**** of 3rd and 4th line guys. some with potential to be more, but must prove themselves first.

Regardless of how we go about constructing our offense, we need atleast 6 top 6 forwards. You can go 2-2-2 and spread them across 3 lines and put a grinder as the third guy(like varada-bonk-hossa), or you can go 3-3. The fact remains we need 6 top 6 forwards, and we do not have that right now. If we're trying to be as succesful as possible next year, our UFA/Trade target should be 2-3 top 6 forwards and a backup goalie. We're set with our bottom 6, our D, and our starting goalie for the next couple years. If over the next couple years, butler/regin/foligno etc. prove that they can be counted as top 6 forwards, then we either trade away one of the UFA guys we signed, or we keep them all and rock a top team.


Last edited by jbeck5: 04-05-2011 at 02:17 PM.
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Old
04-05-2011, 02:13 PM
  #29
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Oh god, let's not draft another Mike Fisher. If you mean draft a Ryan Kesler (aka guy who's not good enough for the 1st line but puts up more points than a 2nd line C), then sure, I guess.
I was actually thinking Mika Zibanejad.

And Fisher is a 3C or 2RW.

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04-05-2011, 02:20 PM
  #30
trentmccleary
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Originally Posted by jbeck5 View Post
Our team was never that. Heatley got traded for hossa. Havlat hit the scene after yashin. I agree with spreading the top scorers to make 3 good lines. We need to get proven top 6 fowards to more spots for that to be possible. We always had a mcheachern/smolinski type guy. to play with a star, and a young player.

That means if we sign 2 proven 40-60 point guys(guys like matt cullen for example) then we can deffinately have several solid lines.

UFA-Spezza-young guy
Young guy-UFA-alfredsson
michalek-young guy-young guy
neil and young guys

Whatever the case may be, as it stands now, we only have 3 proven typical "top 6 forwards" and a giant cluster**** of 3rd and 4th line guys. some with potential to be more, but must prove themselves first.
Smolinski didn't play with young players. MacEachern played with a Yashin 6 years into his career. Our young players learned things on their own, actually having 3 top-6 forwards right now is a leg up on where we started from as an expansion team.

White, Bonk, Arvedsson, Schaefer and Fisher weren't proven 40-60 point players... and if you think it's a good idea to go out and start throwing around $4M deals on the UFA market, then I'm sure you'll be pretty disappointed in the "1st line" forwards we can afford after doing that.

If Butler, Da Costa, Wick and maybe even Regin are on 3rd or 4th lines... they'll have very short NHL careers.

Did you watch this team get built up the first time? ... Secondary scoring was something we lucked into, it wasn't entirely planned other than to have a bunch of options to choose from if something didn't work out. Also, they were just about the last thing developed after primary scoring and top-4 defense corps... because they were heavily dependent on the competency of both of those areas.

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04-05-2011, 02:30 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
Move up in the draft to take whom exactly? ... Raffi Torres? Kyle Turris? Alex Svitov? Matt Zultek?

We have 4 picks between 31-65 to move up with and those picks are much less likely to ever become as good as Foligno or Regin.

This team needs to stay away from expensive depth UFA's like Upshall until it knows how and if it can fill out a 1st line. Priorities.



Greening's played 22 games with Jason Spezza, sprinting to the end of the season to earn an NHL job. Watch how he plays staring down a 90 game marathon pre-season & regular season with job security and lesser linemates on a healthier team before you start guaranteeing how good he'll be next season.



Michalek - Spezza - Alfie
Regin - Fisher - Kovalev
Ruutu - Kelly - Neil
Foligno - Winch - Shannon

Winchester's a UFA next year, Neil and Alfie 2 years later.

We sure as hell do need more 3rd liners... 3rd liners, 4th liners, 2nd liners. We need almost everything.

Can I blame Clouston for having having Alfie and Spezza on 50 point paces in the first half? Kovalev, Fisher and Michalek on 30 point paces in the first half? Can I blame him for losing control of the team and allowing the system to collapse? Can I blame him for coaching the first Sens team to be out-shot in 15 years? Can I blame him for missing the playoffs with the exact same team that was 5th last season despite catastrophic injuries and not even one career year?
Not sure why you're knocking Kyle Turris unless you simply haven't seen him play.

Signing Upshall to be either 1 or 2 LW won't cost much. He's looking for a team to give him a shot in the top 6 and he skates hard, hits and can find the back of the net. He's definitely not your typical 1LW, but I think he could skate with Spezza and go to the net when Michalek gets hurt again

I liked what I saw in Greening at the Prospects scrimmage. It was obvious to me then that he can think the game better than Foligno- as well as skate better and he's bigger. I've been even more impressed since. He's the main reason I think Foligno is expendable.

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04-05-2011, 02:40 PM
  #32
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All this hate for Foligno is just crazy. Completely unwarranted. The guy has played great in the second half of the season. He's a great grinder, and actually has some skill. He's 23 years old and is third on the team in points. He's younger than Greening, Condra and Butler, yet people act like he's plateau'd already. Once this team is good again, and Foligno can play with people not named Smith, Neil or Shannon, he'll really show what he can do. He's not a top-six guy, and not a 60 point guy, but he's a great piece to have, and could be a really good depth scorer. He'll be a 20 goal, 45-50 point guy on the third line in his prime, and that's the kind of player we need in our bottom-six to take the pressure off Spezza and others.

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04-05-2011, 02:44 PM
  #33
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FTR I don't hate the guy. I just wouldn't mind if they traded him in order to get a player that could turn in to a 2nd liner.

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04-05-2011, 03:00 PM
  #34
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Foligno is having a career year but yet he gets flak, this was a terrible team but he still managed to find some points. Plus whats the deal with Butler on the 4th line (original poster) hes not that bad....

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04-05-2011, 03:00 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by SenzZen View Post
Yep. 1 more than 2 years ago. The sky's the limit!
Considering how brutal our offense has been and how brutal his start was I'd say its a decent achievement. Too soon to write him off, at least.

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04-05-2011, 04:47 PM
  #36
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If they are serious about the rebuild, the Sens won't trade any of their young guys especially Regin and Foligno to try and take a shortcut to the playoffs. The early part of this year was flat for everyone for many reasons posted many times on these forums. How can you judge younger players based on a season like that. Give those guys a chance to play a whole year on a re-energized team. After a full season the Sens will be in a better position to assess who should stay and who should go. I'm all for (mostly) standing pat and playing the hand they were dealt.

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04-05-2011, 05:46 PM
  #37
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There are two UFA forwards that I think will be available July 1st who have the potential to put up a lot of points, especially if they are centered by Spezza (Frolov & Zherdev). However, they bring baggage, they are considered lazy & I would describe both of them as Kovalev lite. If they do happen to falter we still have four other forwards capable of playing 1st line minutes. They both have good size, they both have NHL experience, Frolov has put up 50 pts before in LA & the two could be available for $5 mil or less.

I'm not a fan of either of these two guys but it's likely that they could both be signed cheap & for one yr at a time allowing our prospects to develop without the pressure of playing on the 1st line. Having Gonchar here might help in signing both & we would still have lots of cap space available. IMO it's a minor risk at a good time for this organization. The other option of course is to let our prospects play & develop & Ottawa tanks for another yr to get another couple of good prospects at next yr's draft.

Frolov - Spezza - Alfredson
Michalek - Regin - Zherdev
Greening - Z. Smith - Butler
Foligno - Winchester - Neil/Condra

Gonchar - Karlsson
Phillips - Lee
Kuba - Carkner/Hale

Anderson - Leighton

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04-05-2011, 06:36 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manny View Post
All this hate for Foligno is just crazy. Completely unwarranted. The guy has played great in the second half of the season. He's a great grinder, and actually has some skill. He's 23 years old and is third on the team in points. He's younger than Greening, Condra and Butler, yet people act like he's plateau'd already. Once this team is good again, and Foligno can play with people not named Smith, Neil or Shannon, he'll really show what he can do. He's not a top-six guy, and not a 60 point guy, but he's a great piece to have, and could be a really good depth scorer. He'll be a 20 goal, 45-50 point guy on the third line in his prime, and that's the kind of player we need in our bottom-six to take the pressure off Spezza and others.
So true. Even I find myself being critical of Foligno from time to time, but have to realize he's still only 23. While Im still not sold on him being a great top six player, getting rid of him just for the sake of opening up a roster spot is ridiculous.

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04-06-2011, 02:16 PM
  #39
trentmccleary
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Originally Posted by SenzZen View Post
I was actually thinking Mika Zibanejad.

And Fisher is a 3C or 2RW.
So you give up 35 point, 23 yo Foligno and Nashville's 1st rounder to move up as much as 10 spots to pick up an 18 yo you hope can become a 50 point player in 4-5 years?

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Originally Posted by SenzZen View Post
Not sure why you're knocking Kyle Turris unless you simply haven't seen him play.

Signing Upshall to be either 1 or 2 LW won't cost much. He's looking for a team to give him a shot in the top 6 and he skates hard, hits and can find the back of the net. He's definitely not your typical 1LW, but I think he could skate with Spezza and go to the net when Michalek gets hurt again

I liked what I saw in Greening at the Prospects scrimmage. It was obvious to me then that he can think the game better than Foligno- as well as skate better and he's bigger. I've been even more impressed since. He's the main reason I think Foligno is expendable.
Turris is a huge bust, I have seen him play. He'll never be a 1st liner and at this point, Phoenix would be happy just to get a competent enough all-round player to allow him to play enough to get 2nd line production out of him. That's just a little short of the 80 point, Cup winning RW picked 2 spots ahead of him... or whatever it is we hope to get out of our Top-5 pick this summer.

Upshall will cost $3-4M and Foligno makes $1.2M. A collection of salaries like that constrain a teams ability to acquire 1st line talent and the benefit of an Upshall over a Foligno is marginal now, let alone if Foligno continues to improve. Suffice to say, the cost benefit of such a move is awful and not worth the 10 spots to move up unless we truly believed that move were the difference of a 1st liner vs. a 2nd liner.

Greening, Butler and Condra have proven very little thus far. They've earned lineup spots in pencil for October. Not only that, they're only 3 players... we need 6 players for our 2nd and 3rd lines and you're offering 3 potential players for those lines, while moving 2 guarantees for those lines next season. It's absurd, have you written down a likely lineup to see how few players you're proposing fill too many lineup spots?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tundraman View Post
If they are serious about the rebuild, the Sens won't trade any of their young guys especially Regin and Foligno to try and take a shortcut to the playoffs. The early part of this year was flat for everyone for many reasons posted many times on these forums. How can you judge younger players based on a season like that. Give those guys a chance to play a whole year on a re-energized team. After a full season the Sens will be in a better position to assess who should stay and who should go. I'm all for (mostly) standing pat and playing the hand they were dealt.
Exactly.

You know what this line of commentary sounds like? .... It sounds like the 2nd half of the season after we fired Hartsburg. Disgusting incompetence in coaching tanked our breakout and offense in the first half. Causing people to crap all over the key players who couldn't produce offensively in the first half and then pimping Shannon all throughout the summer because he got a tonne of ice time in the 2nd half when the offense had been fixed, but didn't have his PPG ratio dragged down by a weak first half. The same thing is happening with Greening, Butler and Condra. We're not going to have open 1st line spots for them next year and lineup spots beside Spezza will be much more limited. They're currently sprinting towards the end of this season to earn NHL jobs for next year. We honestly won't have any idea how they'll perform with more limited ice time and when they start pacing themselves to handle a long season until it happens.

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04-06-2011, 02:55 PM
  #40
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OK since you asked (and if we're trading Foligno in this scenario):

Michalek-Spezza-Butler
Upshall-Regin-Alfie
Greening-DaCosta-Condra
Smith-Winchester-Neil

Leaving out our first 2 picks this year to marinate in their respective leagues.

I disagree strongly with your assessments of Turris and Zibanejad and also Upshall's cap-hit.

And to Tundraman: how is suggesting they trade
Quote:
Regin and Foligno to try and take a shortcut to the playoffs
I'm suggesting they trade them in order to land a better prospect so they might win a Cup down the road- not that they trade them for Brent Sopel.

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04-06-2011, 03:22 PM
  #41
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Greening, Condra, Butler and ZSmith have made the team. Done very little - disagree. They have done a lot.

Greening can play the centre position as well and that might be a look see next year. His size, speed and vision are of interest.


Greening-Spezza-Butler
Michalek-Regin-Alfie
Foligno-UFA/Draft-Condra
Smith-Winchester-Neil
Shannon

Spezza was just on the radio speaking (highly) of him. I think Shannon gets a contract and if Regin is not ready slides into his role somewhere.

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04-06-2011, 03:23 PM
  #42
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The only way I trade Foligno, and I mean the only, is if it's part of a deal to bring someone better in. I think Foligno - O'Brien and someone like Condra could develop into a fantastic third line that most teams would consider a middle of the pack second line. (which means we have to get better players for a second line though...)

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04-06-2011, 09:22 PM
  #43
trentmccleary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenzZen View Post
OK since you asked (and if we're trading Foligno in this scenario):

Michalek-Spezza-Butler
Upshall-Regin-Alfie
Greening-DaCosta-Condra
Smith-Winchester-Neil

Leaving out our first 2 picks this year to marinate in their respective leagues.
You traded Regin and I doubt very much that Da Costa will start next season in the NHL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenzZen View Post
I disagree strongly with your assessments of Turris and Zibanejad and also Upshall's cap-hit.
50-ish players hit 60+ points per year.
Do the math on our #1 and Zibanejad... is everybody in the top-15 of this draft going to be a scoring star? Or are we only the team who won't be drafting the busts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by operasen View Post
Greening, Condra, Butler and ZSmith have made the team. Done very little - disagree. They have done a lot.
They've performed well while competing for jobs in the NHL over a short period of time during meaningless games. They're favorites to make the team next year. But I'd wait before giving them 1-way deals (if waiver exemptions remain), guaranteeing them NHL jobs or projecting their NHL futures. There's a long way to go.

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04-07-2011, 07:28 AM
  #44
SenzZen
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You traded Regin and I doubt very much that Da Costa will start next season in the NHL.

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04-07-2011, 09:28 AM
  #45
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I still see us as being in need of 2 first line players to go with Spezza (Greening and Butler haven't proven jack yet) as Michalek and Alfie should be on the second line.

Good god, please let us avoid the injury bug next year otherwise it will be bleak.

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