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I propose that a Shootout Specialist is worth more to a team than a Goon

View Poll Results: Which would you rather have?
The best heavyweight in the league to protect your team. (Not a great in game player) 14 11.97%
The best shootout specialist in the league, just in case. (Not a great in game player) 78 66.67%
Neither, don't waste a spot for them. 25 21.37%
Voters: 117. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
04-05-2011, 03:49 PM
  #76
VJ Rangerfan
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With the way the NHL has evolved, so long as you have a Prust type player who isn't a legit heavyweight but can drop the gloves then you get the PP specialist. You don't need a goon to fight to change the tone, you can have an energy guy do it.

SO specialists get you extra points in the standings so I'd def say they are more valuable

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04-05-2011, 03:54 PM
  #77
Orr Nightmare
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Originally Posted by jniklast View Post
Nobody has to answer anyone in this league. Like it or nor, but most of the guys that run Lundqvist are non-fighters and they'll never fight the guys you just mentioned. And there's even less guys who would fight Boogard.

In the end a goon will only fight other goons and not intimidate anybody else. Maybe with his size, but due to his incredibly slow skating his hitting isn't really efficient either...
If a guy runs your star player he has to know that someone on that team is going to come calling for you...Benoit Pouliot would beat up everyone on our team except Prust.

Patrice Bergeron can drop his shoulder into Hanks chin because he knows if someone messes with him, they have to answer to Lucic and the boys...you can pretend that does happen in hockey but it does.

Chara almost kills the Canadian kid and next game they destroy the Habs...because the Habs have no answers for their size.

I love the Rangers make up...but I think they need to incorporate more bruisers.


Last edited by Orr Nightmare: 04-05-2011 at 04:00 PM.
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Old
04-05-2011, 04:00 PM
  #78
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I would rather see Christensen or a callup in favor of Boogs. It's the Brashear signing all over again aka a mistake.

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04-05-2011, 04:13 PM
  #79
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Here is a curveball, would you want an enforcer or a SO specialist? There is a difference. Goons just fight (Boogard, Orr, Goddard, the Islanders). Enforcers are guys like Darren McCarty who was a good 4th line player and also countered Claude Lemieux in the Wings/Avs rivalry. Or have a guy Like Beukeboom who was a great penalty killer, threw around big checks, and dropped the gloves. Same goes for Scott Stevens. The presence of certain players is enough to say, don't ******* with Gretzky, Yzerman, Lemieux, etc. As previously mentioned by somebody in this thread, Marty Mcsorely protected Gretzky in Edmonton. Know one ever tried to check him.

Final conclusion, no need for a goon but there is a need for an enforcer. Somebody who is paid for more than playing 5 minutes a game and fighting.

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Old
04-05-2011, 05:59 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by NYRandazzo View Post
Here is a curveball, would you want an enforcer or a SO specialist? There is a difference. Goons just fight (Boogard, Orr, Goddard, the Islanders). Enforcers are guys like Darren McCarty who was a good 4th line player and also countered Claude Lemieux in the Wings/Avs rivalry. Or have a guy Like Beukeboom who was a great penalty killer, threw around big checks, and dropped the gloves. Same goes for Scott Stevens. The presence of certain players is enough to say, don't ******* with Gretzky, Yzerman, Lemieux, etc. As previously mentioned by somebody in this thread, Marty Mcsorely protected Gretzky in Edmonton. Know one ever tried to check him.

Final conclusion, no need for a goon but there is a need for an enforcer. Somebody who is paid for more than playing 5 minutes a game and fighting.
I want a guy who is going to skate over to a guy that touches Hank and tell him if he comes within 3 feet of Hank again, he is going to eat his fist.

This is the man who I want...

http://www.hockeyfights.com/fights/104272

You put him on a line with Gabby and Prospal, add a nasty dman to hold the spot for McIlrath, say a Jim Vandermeer type on top of what we have with Prust, then I think we can compete with anyone.

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04-05-2011, 06:03 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYRandazzo View Post
Here is a curveball, would you want an enforcer or a SO specialist? There is a difference. Goons just fight (Boogard, Orr, Goddard, the Islanders). Enforcers are guys like Darren McCarty who was a good 4th line player and also countered Claude Lemieux in the Wings/Avs rivalry. Or have a guy Like Beukeboom who was a great penalty killer, threw around big checks, and dropped the gloves. Same goes for Scott Stevens. The presence of certain players is enough to say, don't ******* with Gretzky, Yzerman, Lemieux, etc. As previously mentioned by somebody in this thread, Marty Mcsorely protected Gretzky in Edmonton. Know one ever tried to check him.

Final conclusion, no need for a goon but there is a need for an enforcer. Somebody who is paid for more than playing 5 minutes a game and fighting.
Everyone thinks I am in love with Boogie and I was excited when we signed him but this year has taught me you need more complete players...but with that being said, Boogie is here until he is not and Tort's has to find a way to get him involved.

All the fans who want to turn hockey into figure skating will only view me as a goon lover and I do enjoy a good fight...i know there is more to hockey than just that...but i could care less what they think.

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04-05-2011, 10:21 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
My theory. In the past teams kept goons on their roster as specialty players. Players who could impact a game with a fight. I think as the game evolves, teams are going to be keeping roster spots just for guys who are awesome in the shootout.

So, my question. Which is worth more right now. The best heavyweight in the league, or the best shootout specialist in the league?
This is like proposing that a bidet is worth more than a steaming pile of dog ****.

Sure, a bidet is nice, but you don't really need it. Not if you know how to wipe your ass properly. No one needs a steaming pile of dog ****.

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Old
04-05-2011, 11:26 PM
  #83
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I agree 100000% with OP because a shootout specialist can win you games. Goons don't win you anything. It doesn't take a goon to enforce the law, it takes a fighter. I have no respect for goons. I like hockey players who fight, not fighters who [almost] play hockey.

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04-05-2011, 11:31 PM
  #84
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Clowe is a perfect example. That's a guy I would want. Good figher and a good hockey player. Boogaard is a pathetic hockey player.

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04-06-2011, 02:01 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
Everyone thinks I am in love with Boogie and I was excited when we signed him but this year has taught me you need more complete players...but with that being said, Boogie is here until he is not and Tort's has to find a way to get him involved.

All the fans who want to turn hockey into figure skating will only view me as a goon lover and I do enjoy a good fight...i know there is more to hockey than just that...but i could care less what they think.
Boogaard or no Boogaard I've seen no gaping hole in the lineup now that we've spent the entire second half of the season without a "goon."

I don't mind guys that can cycle the puck, throw a couple pucks on net, keep the puck in the offensive zone. That's what made Sjostrom-Betts-Orr really affective. So don't get me wrong, it's not like I want to ban fighting or I think it's pointless. But Boogaard's a complete waste and I don't think a goon is necessary if you have adequate team toughness and a top of the line middleweight like Prust that will go with anyone and usually hold his own and protect himself at the least.

And like I said, we don't know anything about Boogaard at this point. His career could be over. I'd imagine there'd be updates if anyone thought he was relevant...his cap number will make it a story this off-season I'm sure.

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Old
04-06-2011, 05:50 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
Boogaard is on the team for the next 3 years unless they send him to Hartford or he retires...those are the facts...you can cry all you want about it but it wont change a thing...I am trying to figure out how we can utilizes whatever he brings.

How many times you think Thomas, Fluery, Boucher/Bob get run compared to Hank.

Guys might take less liberties knowing they have to answer to Lucic, Shelley, Pronger, Engelland, etc...i dont know, just seems like common sense to me.

But i am just tired.
You can't criticize someone for "crying" about facts when you do the same thing. Well, I guess you can, but it seems silly.

Neil and Clowe aren't Boogaard and until you understand the difference, I don't think you will ever convince anyone that a player like Boogaard in any way resembles a necessity.

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Old
04-06-2011, 07:24 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
I want a guy who is going to skate over to a guy that touches Hank and tell him if he comes within 3 feet of Hank again, he is going to eat his fist.

This is the man who I want...

http://www.hockeyfights.com/fights/104272

You put him on a line with Gabby and Prospal, add a nasty dman to hold the spot for McIlrath, say a Jim Vandermeer type on top of what we have with Prust, then I think we can compete with anyone.
Your outdated views on the impact of goonish type players isnt what bothers me so much - it has more to do with the fact that you think having tougher players is the missing link that will put this team over the top.

Tell ya what, you can have your Ryan Clowe and McIlrath/Vandermeer...I'll take Brad Richards and a true puck moving defenseman. What team do you think is going to be more competitive?

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04-06-2011, 11:22 AM
  #88
Orr Nightmare
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Your outdated views on the impact of goonish type players isnt what bothers me so much - it has more to do with the fact that you think having tougher players is the missing link that will put this team over the top.

Tell ya what, you can have your Ryan Clowe and McIlrath/Vandermeer...I'll take Brad Richards and a true puck moving defenseman. What team do you think is going to be more competitive?
I would say take a poll...but you and all your buddies think alike.

Everyone is in love with Richards and Flower...but I would take Clowe and McIlrath and then having small skilled guys like Thomas, Horak, Bourque, Zucc and Hagelin wouldn't be a hinderance.

I will bet you anything you want...if Bruins and Habs meet up...the Bruins will destroy the Habs...if the rangers do not incorporate size and grit, we will be another version of the Habs.

I always used the '94 team as a point of reference, that is how you build a winning team, guys who could play and break your face if they had to.

Can't have all pansies on your team, as much as you would like that.

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04-06-2011, 11:29 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
You can't criticize someone for "crying" about facts when you do the same thing. Well, I guess you can, but it seems silly.

Neil and Clowe aren't Boogaard and until you understand the difference, I don't think you will ever convince anyone that a player like Boogaard in any way resembles a necessity.
Boogaard is here for 3 years...nothing you can do about that...he might be useless but he is here and you have to find a way to make some use out of him.

Until the Islanders, Penquins, Flyers and just about everyone else gets rid of their goon, I would like one on my team, simple as that jack, you don't have to agree with it...but you are not Sather.

I bet when the Islander were running all of their goons on the ice when they spanked us...I bet for at least that minute, Torts was wishing for Boogie.

What, Ryan Clowe, Chris Neil and Derek Boogaard are not the same person...

Goons are a dying bread..but they are not dead yet.

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04-06-2011, 12:59 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
Boogaard is here for 3 years...nothing you can do about that...he might be useless but he is here and you have to find a way to make some use out of him.

Until the Islanders, Penquins, Flyers and just about everyone else gets rid of their goon, I would like one on my team, simple as that jack, you don't have to agree with it...but you are not Sather.

I bet when the Islander were running all of their goons on the ice when they spanked us...I bet for at least that minute, Torts was wishing for Boogie.

What, Ryan Clowe, Chris Neil and Derek Boogaard are not the same person...

Goons are a dying bread..but they are not dead yet.
Horse and buggy, eight tracks, goons. On one hand you tell me to accept certain realities while you ignore others, and the big picture.

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04-06-2011, 03:32 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Horse and buggy, eight tracks, goons. On one hand you tell me to accept certain realities while you ignore others, and the big picture.
What am I ignoring?

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04-06-2011, 05:11 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
What am I ignoring?
Two things. Back in the day, there was no such thing as talentless goons. Fighters could play hockey.

And, goons of today play zero influence on the outcome.

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Old
04-06-2011, 05:34 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
Everyone thinks I am in love with Boogie and I was excited when we signed him but this year has taught me you need more complete players.
The problem with Boogaard is not that he can't play hockey. The problem with Boogaard is he doesn't take revenge on the perpetrators of dirty hits.

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Old
04-06-2011, 05:42 PM
  #94
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Dude you are wasting your time.No matter what you say "they" all want ice dancers.
Its the new NHL Bettman has given us and its the only NHL 75% of this board knows.I admire your fight but its lost on here.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
I would say take a poll...but you and all your buddies think alike.

Everyone is in love with Richards and Flower...but I would take Clowe and McIlrath and then having small skilled guys like Thomas, Horak, Bourque, Zucc and Hagelin wouldn't be a hinderance.

I will bet you anything you want...if Bruins and Habs meet up...the Bruins will destroy the Habs...if the rangers do not incorporate size and grit, we will be another version of the Habs.

I always used the '94 team as a point of reference, that is how you build a winning team, guys who could play and break your face if they had to.

Can't have all pansies on your team, as much as you would like that.

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Old
04-06-2011, 05:45 PM
  #95
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we have Boogie as the goon and EC as the specialist. I don't think any of us would be pissed if they were gone next yr

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04-06-2011, 05:47 PM
  #96
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If Boston wins its because they are a very good hockey team...sure part of that is due to toughness, but let's not pretend that its the biggest part, or even top 3

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04-06-2011, 08:18 PM
  #97
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Dude you are wasting your time.No matter what you say "they" all want ice dancers.
Its the new NHL Bettman has given us and its the only NHL 75% of this board knows.I admire your fight but its lost on here.
Very True, I was suspended because I hurt too many feelings.

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04-06-2011, 08:24 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by mullichicken25 View Post
If Boston wins its because they are a very good hockey team...sure part of that is due to toughness, but let's not pretend that its the biggest part, or even top 3
I never said it was the biggest part...but it is a very important part...you can't have like Surf said, all Brian Boitano's and no Stan Jonathan's...now everyone run along and look up the two people I just referenced.

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04-06-2011, 09:24 PM
  #99
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LOL...I have had 3 infractions..I dont follow close enough to even know what that means..



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Very True, I was suspended because I hurt too many feelings.

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04-06-2011, 09:26 PM
  #100
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Just one look up..They will know the ice dancer..LOL..Stan Jonathan not so much.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
I never said it was the biggest part...but it is a very important part...you can't have like Surf said, all Brian Boitano's and no Stan Jonathan's...now everyone run along and look up the two people I just referenced.

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