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Comparative Physical Metrics for Beer League

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04-02-2011, 01:08 AM
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Splitbtw
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Comparative Physical Metrics for Beer League

Granted, skill will always trump all in beer league, what would you consider comparable physical metrics?

A 6'4" 240 in the NHL will not have the same effect as someone equal in prowess but in his correct skill league. Do you consider them the same?

I'm 6'2" and 190 and play in a D2 league in San Diego. I can skate fast and rip a slapshot with some decent corner work. Other than that I am decent in face-offs and defensive awareness and seem to have moments where a pass comes off my blade where I intend it to but I'm nothing special there.

My questions is, would my skill set compare to anything in beer league?

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04-02-2011, 10:02 AM
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Jarick
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The higher up you go, the bigger/stronger/faster guys are. I'm taking a clinic course right now and our players are pretty average, a few taller/bigger guys, but plenty of smaller guys (and girls) and a few overweight/out of shape folks.

But walking out of the clinic, there's an adult pickup game that looks like it's about B or A level, and 90% of the guys look well over 6' and 200 pounds, and in a frightening way to someone that's 5'8 180. Most of the guys I played against at C level were also a lot taller and bigger than D level.

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04-02-2011, 10:20 AM
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I'm normally one of the shortest guys on the ice. I'm 5'8" 170 (which according to BMI is even slightly overweight, beh).

I've noticed at C level, you'll find a lot of bigger dudes who will out muscle you due to their sheer size, not that they're in amazing shape or anything. Then you'll have a lot of younger guys who are somewhat tall, but they're quite thin, not very built (but very fast). The amount of guys who have that right hockey size (6 foot or taller and 190+ of mostly muscle) aren't too common at the C level.


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04-02-2011, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splitbtw View Post
Granted, skill will always trump all in beer league, what would you consider comparable physical metrics?

A 6'4" 240 in the NHL will not have the same effect as someone equal in prowess but in his correct skill league. Do you consider them the same?

I'm 6'2" and 190 and play in a D2 league in San Diego. I can skate fast and rip a slapshot with some decent corner work. Other than that I am decent in face-offs and defensive awareness and seem to have moments where a pass comes off my blade where I intend it to but I'm nothing special there.

My questions is, would my skill set compare to anything in beer league?
I really do not get what you're asking at all.

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04-02-2011, 02:42 PM
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It's often size, not skill that's the determining factor in whether a junior or low level pro player makes the higher levels. I've seen a former ECHL player w/ the most insane dangles and top speed out of anyone and I've played against a couple former NHL/AHLers but this guy was a bit too small to endure the huge hits for very long, simple as that.

Small players can succeed but it takes an out of this world level of skill and more importantly, physical/mental awareness.

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04-02-2011, 06:24 PM
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I don't understand the OP.

Assuming it is non-checking, your size advantage is mostly in reach. It takes a lot for a smaller player to skate around your reach.

Still, the most important skill is skating, then stick handling. The most important non-skill is vision.

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04-02-2011, 11:12 PM
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I'm not really sure what the OP is asking either. A player with great vision and strong work ethic will always outperform better than 90% of those on the ice, no matter his size.

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04-03-2011, 11:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splitbtw View Post
Granted, skill will always trump all in beer league, what would you consider comparable physical metrics?

A 6'4" 240 in the NHL will not have the same effect as someone equal in prowess but in his correct skill league. Do you consider them the same?

I'm 6'2" and 190 and play in a D2 league in San Diego. I can skate fast and rip a slapshot with some decent corner work. Other than that I am decent in face-offs and defensive awareness and seem to have moments where a pass comes off my blade where I intend it to but I'm nothing special there.

My questions is, would my skill set compare to anything in beer league?

If your asking what would your skill with all the tools you mentioned you have in a beer league compare to in the NHL i can say not alot. every guy in the NHL can shoot its really not a hard thing to do if you can understand the basics. and even the so called bench warming players in the NHL can pass and skate and shoot great.

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04-04-2011, 02:21 AM
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Originally Posted by donGjohnson View Post
It's often size, not skill that's the determining factor in whether a junior or low level pro player makes the higher levels. I've seen a former ECHL player w/ the most insane dangles and top speed out of anyone and I've played against a couple former NHL/AHLers but this guy was a bit too small to endure the huge hits for very long, simple as that.

Small players can succeed but it takes an out of this world level of skill and more importantly, physical/mental awareness.
Size is a reason, but not a good one. Any ECHL player will look like they have insane dangles and speed playing against beer league guys. It takes exceptional skill to make it even that far. I've played with a guy who led an ECHL team in PIM- and he was the fastest guy on the ice, had great hands and was making perfect saucer passes as a matter of routine. And that was after having not played in 4 or 5 years. In pro hockey, he was a complete and utter hack. Playing with a random beer league team, he was a god.

Also, I gather that you don't have much of an idea of what it's like to be a small player. There's certainly that mentality that small guys can't take hits or last in a physical game. For some that may be true. But it certainly isn't always true. If a small guy has a good core and strong skating, being short can be an advantage. You skate faster, accelerate better, and you can be a real pain in the ass to hit. Gerbe (think it was him anyway- mighta been Gionta.) was once asked about what it's like to play against Chara, and replied that he didn't think that Chara could hit him properly even if he wanted to.

As a small guy, you are at more of a risk of getting caught up high on a hit, but that's not a huge issue if you're aware.

Really, the big issue with small guys is that they're often chased out of sports at a lower ages, or selected against by guys who think that they're particularly delicate, regardless of the actual player's ability. Think about what happened to Marty St. Louis (Former MVP, potential candidate for this year's MVP, and probably HoFer) with the flames. They limited his opportunities and then released him simply due to concerns over his size.

Ever wonder where that chip on his shoulder comes from? Don't you think Flames fans would love to have him around right now instead of feeding impossible passes to Stamkos?

Don't patronize small players. Please. People said Gretzky was too small and fragile, and wouldn't last in the NHL. See how that worked out.

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04-04-2011, 02:33 AM
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Originally Posted by cptjeff View Post
Size is a reason, but not a good one. Any ECHL player will look like they have insane dangles and speed playing against beer league guys. It takes exceptional skill to make it even that far. I've played with a guy who led an ECHL team in PIM- and he was the fastest guy on the ice, had great hands and was making perfect saucer passes as a matter of routine. And that was after having not played in 4 or 5 years. In pro hockey, he was a complete and utter hack. Playing with a random beer league team, he was a god.

Also, I gather that you don't have much of an idea of what it's like to be a small player. There's certainly that mentality that small guys can't take hits or last in a physical game. For some that may be true. But it certainly isn't always true. If a small guy has a good core and strong skating, being short can be an advantage. You skate faster, accelerate better, and you can be a real pain in the ass to hit. Gerbe (think it was him anyway- mighta been Gionta.) was once asked about what it's like to play against Chara, and replied that he didn't think that Chara could hit him properly even if he wanted to.

As a small guy, you are at more of a risk of getting caught up high on a hit, but that's not a huge issue if you're aware.

Really, the big issue with small guys is that they're often chased out of sports at a lower ages, or selected against by guys who think that they're particularly delicate, regardless of the actual player's ability. Think about what happened to Marty St. Louis (Former MVP, potential candidate for this year's MVP, and probably HoFer) with the flames. They limited his opportunities and then released him simply due to concerns over his size.

Ever wonder where that chip on his shoulder comes from? Don't you think Flames fans would love to have him around right now instead of feeding impossible passes to Stamkos?

Don't patronize small players. Please. People said Gretzky was too small and fragile, and wouldn't last in the NHL. See how that worked out.
Sort of agree, sort of disagree.

If you ask guys that have played at the AHL and NHL level, a lot of them will mention that there are guys at the AHL level that have the skills to be in the NHL, but can't quite cut it. Often size is a factor in that. It's not always THE factor, but it's definitely the one part of a player's game that they can't work on.

There are big, slow guys in the NHL that aren't particularly gifted offensively. I can't think of any small, slow guys in the NHL that aren't particularly gifted offensively. It's obviously not impossible to be a great small NHLer, but it IS another factor that these guys have to overcome on the way there.

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04-04-2011, 03:27 AM
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^This. Google Marty Standish, guy deserves to be playing at the NHL level.

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04-04-2011, 11:16 AM
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Hank Chinaski
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^This. Google Marty Standish, guy deserves to be playing at the NHL level.
His numbers are pretty impressive for the CHL, but nothing eye-popping. They definitely look worthy of an AHL PTO or two (something he appears to have had), but NHL seems like a bit of a stretch.

Care to elaborate?

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04-04-2011, 03:36 PM
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Also, using Gretzky as an example of why size isn't a big issue for players to make it to the NHL is a bit ridiculous. It's like using Donald Trump as an example of why a bad hairdo isn't an obstacle for a man that wants to attract women.

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04-04-2011, 06:21 PM
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Also, using Gretzky as an example of why size isn't a big issue for players to make it to the NHL is a bit ridiculous. It's like using Donald Trump as an example of why a bad hairdo isn't an obstacle for a man that wants to attract women.
Bad analogy. Money attracts a lot of women. Physical looks (and everything else) are secondary when you have that primary characteristic.

And I was using Gretzky to show how those criticisms are so often baseless and hilariously wrong. Every small player in the history of ever has heard 'em. Have you ever seen Scott Walker play? The guy is about 5'8" in real life, if that. He had a bad (good?) habit of losing his temper and hurting things. Not to mention Theo Fleury. And Marty St. Louis doesn't beat a whole lot of people up, but he ain't exactly what you would call a soft player.

Quote:
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Sort of agree, sort of disagree.

If you ask guys that have played at the AHL and NHL level, a lot of them will mention that there are guys at the AHL level that have the skills to be in the NHL, but can't quite cut it. Often size is a factor in that. It's not always THE factor, but it's definitely the one part of a player's game that they can't work on.

There are big, slow guys in the NHL that aren't particularly gifted offensively. I can't think of any small, slow guys in the NHL that aren't particularly gifted offensively. It's obviously not impossible to be a great small NHLer, but it IS another factor that these guys have to overcome on the way there.
The point is that that has less to do with actual ability and more to do with perception. And those big guys are often brought in as goons to punch the lights out of other large goons, not to play hockey.

The big slow guys are there to be big and to hurt things. Small guys, by virtue of mass, can't really play in that kind of role. That doesn't mean they can't really excel in other roles, and that does not mean that they cannot take a hit or two.

Being short is indeed an obstacle. But more often then not, it's not an obstacle to actually playing, it's an obstacle based on perception. The Brian Burke mentality runs deep with a lot of old hockey guys, despite the repeated success of small players.

As for guys still in the AHL, that's an issue for lots of players. The margins are just so thin between the leagues that it happens to a lot of guys, large and small. Hugh Jessiman being a great example of a big guy who just couldn't quite cut it, despite everything being there on paper. It's often about the breaks you get.

I used to talk online a fair bit with a guy who played in the AHL during the O6 days. He once described a camp with Chicago- he was in a late preseason game, near the final roster, and during that game, he caught a puck weakly on a rebound. It slid towards the net, and stopped in one of those snow piles goalies make along the post. He's reaching to tap it just the little bit more it needs to go in, but gets shoved by the defenseman and the goalie gets there to cover it up. He got sent back down to the AHL the next day. That inch of ice was very possibly the difference between that guy toiling in the minors and getting a chance to establish himself in the NHL, which he never did crack. That camp was his only real shot before new and better prospects were the ones getting the looks.

Happens all the time. There are small guys as well as big guys who get trapped in the minors and never get a chance, on margins as narrow as a pile of snow by the goalpost and not quite catching a puck well enough.

But the point is, I suppose, that performance and the lack of it is not nearly as affected by size as many, especially the old school, suppose. Thankfully, that attitude is going away. Jeff Skinner would not have gone nearly as highly if he was being drafted in the 90's, and Marty St. Louis would probably go fairly high in the draft today. But he wasn't selected then, out of fear that he was too small and as such, too delicate to play in the NHL. And then he won a scoring championship and an MVP in the clutch and grab era.


Back to the point of beer leagues though, where the differences in skill are not so minor, size is even less of a factor. Hate to break it to a lot of the guys here who many have nothing to their credit but size, but a guy who's 5'2" and is faster then you is almost always going to be the more effective player. Go to stick and pucks and watch 6'2" guys get owned by 12 year olds if you need convincing.


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04-04-2011, 06:28 PM
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His numbers are pretty impressive for the CHL, but nothing eye-popping. They definitely look worthy of an AHL PTO or two (something he appears to have had), but NHL seems like a bit of a stretch.

Care to elaborate?
I guess it is a bit of a stretch I'm a little biased haha he's my favorite player, and is definitely a scrapper. Guy has a lot of heart, but unfortunately heart doesn't get you drafted. His numbers are impressive for his size, that's for sure.

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04-05-2011, 03:37 PM
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Bad analogy. Money attracts a lot of women. Physical looks (and everything else) are secondary when you have that primary characteristic.

And I was using Gretzky to show how those criticisms are so often baseless and hilariously wrong. Every small player in the history of ever has heard 'em. Have you ever seen Scott Walker play? The guy is about 5'8" in real life, if that. He had a bad (good?) habit of losing his temper and hurting things. Not to mention Theo Fleury. And Marty St. Louis doesn't beat a whole lot of people up, but he ain't exactly what you would call a soft player.
Having Gretzky's unbelievable hockey sense is basically equivalent to being a billionaire. At that point size, or a huge troll nose, or whatever else don't matter anymore.

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04-05-2011, 06:02 PM
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Having Gretzky's unbelievable hockey sense is basically equivalent to being a billionaire. At that point size, or a huge troll nose, or whatever else don't matter anymore.
Yes, but if the critics were right, no matter how skilled he was, his body would have fallen apart before he could make good on his hockey sense.

Which simply doesn't hold true. Not with Gretzky, not with Gerbe, who isn't anything special in that regard.

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04-05-2011, 06:06 PM
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Jeff is definitely correct that size matters little in beer leagues. It's more often a liability, it seems.

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04-05-2011, 08:49 PM
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Jeff is definitely correct that size matters little in beer leagues. It's more often a liability, it seems.
At around 5'7" 155lbs, I often get away with a lot more body contact than the big guys do in non-contact leagues. As a big guy, you really have to know how much you can push into a guy before knocking him over. When you outweigh me by 50lbs, most big pushes are going to send me flying.

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04-06-2011, 12:03 AM
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At around 5'7" 155lbs, I often get away with a lot more body contact than the big guys do in non-contact leagues. As a big guy, you really have to know how much you can push into a guy before knocking him over. When you outweigh me by 50lbs, most big pushes are going to send me flying.
I've been known to be guilty of that as well. "No ref, he's 6'2". Do you think little old 5'6" me could have dumped him into the boards like that?"

Though I don't get sent flying often. And it's not always for a lack of trying.

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04-10-2011, 10:50 AM
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Of couse size does matter (Ehh heh heh)... but I always believe that knowing the game is always better than sheer athletic ability and size.

If you know where to be and get to where the puck is going, you can make anyone of any size look silly.

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04-11-2011, 05:08 PM
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At around 5'7" 155lbs, I often get away with a lot more body contact than the big guys do in non-contact leagues. As a big guy, you really have to know how much you can push into a guy before knocking him over. When you outweigh me by 50lbs, most big pushes are going to send me flying.
Coming from my point of view (as a big guy), you're completely right. Smaller guys usually can get away with a lot more than a bigger guy. Around the boards I'll get smaller guys running into me all the time with no call, but I can't really do the same because the sheer size difference would turn the play into me laying a crushing hit on them without even trying to. I definitely have to be careful when making body contact, as I have had a few calls against me where I was just trying to bump a guy off the puck and he goes flying backwards. Though the refs usually let it go if the guy is trying some fancy deke (especially if they try and deke through me), I think they get tired of guys trying to be Ovechkin and like to see them knocked on their hindquarters

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04-15-2011, 12:23 AM
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I think I was trying to speak of two different points. The main thing I was going after was comparing the physical measurements of the NHL to beer league. IE, the NHL may have a bunch of 6'4" players which would equate to X"y' in beer league.

Good convo in the meantime.

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