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Jaques Martin: Coaching discussion

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Old
04-05-2011, 10:37 PM
  #351
Bill McNeal
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Originally Posted by Toro View Post
If getting out shot at home and giving up 43 shots on goal is a sign of good coaching, then I was wrong and Martin is a genius.
So then the Habs averaging more shots than they allow would be a good sign, right?

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04-05-2011, 10:38 PM
  #352
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I feel all warm and fuzzy because we made the playoffs again.

However, I was screaming at my TV tonight because we were once again playing a very passive game.

The Hawks were able to skate into our zone with little or no resistance all night long. We were too busy sagging back. Compare that with the play of the Hawks who forced us to dump the puck in with their more aggressive defense.

And speaking of passive, only once or twice did we send in two guys on the forecheck. And when we did, we forced a turnover or two. The rest of the game we sent out a single guy to just make a half hearted effort at a forecheck. And then their was no one in the neutral zone. Our guys were hanging out by our blue line and retreating as the puck carrier advanced.

That is a recipe for disaster in the playoffs.

Our team has played great when we are more aggressive. We were aggressive the first part of March and had success. Now it is back to passive hockey.

This is why Martin drives me crazy. We could be soooo much better playing an aggressive style of hockey. Yet he wont allow it.
I was at the game tonight, and let me tell you, I couldn't disagree more. I just don't think you understand why these things happen.

A lot of people criticize the Habs for being ''passive'' and often giving up the blue line, but the reality of it is that it is absolutely part of the system. Why would we make the opponents dump the puck behind our Dman when we have guys like Hammer, Mara, Sopel and Gill playing?? They are slow and will more often than not get beaten to the puck. We don't want to give to much space at the blue line, that's why we need our forwards to constantly back check and be in good positions (which they did perfectly tonight. It's really too bad that you can never truly see how players, who might not be involved directly in the play, back check on TV as it always focuses on the puck.). We keep the opponent on the outside, play sound positioning and collapse up front if they try to squeeze in. Forwards have to be smart and quick to get in the shooting lanes if puck goes up to the point.

As for us dumping it in, well, other than Gomez, not too many players can carry the puck in. Gionta and Cammy are quite bad at it. Plekanec rarely dekes anybody. Gomez does it best due to his speed but even him if they clog up the blue line will dump it and retrieve it, AK will do it thanks to his stickhandling. So really, dump and chase is probably our best option most of the time. Once we retrieve it, we cycle it nicely.

You can be against Martin's system because it's certainly not the most entertaining one, but it definitely works and tonight was a great example of it.

I think Chicago got lucky earlier, we were completely dominating them. We stepped it up even more after the 1st goal but the Ref made a horrible call (what else is new?) on AK to kill our momentum. It evened out pretty much the rest of the game up until a small stretch where Chicago was lighting it up. Overall, it was a pretty close game, neither team really wanted to take risks, both goalies had to make key saves at times, and we earned our victory.

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04-05-2011, 11:45 PM
  #353
SouthernHab
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I was at the game tonight, and let me tell you, I couldn't disagree more. I just don't think you understand why these things happen.

A lot of people criticize the Habs for being ''passive'' and often giving up the blue line, but the reality of it is that it is absolutely part of the system. Why would we make the opponents dump the puck behind our Dman when we have guys like Hammer, Mara, Sopel and Gill playing?? They are slow and will more often than not get beaten to the puck. We don't want to give to much space at the blue line, that's why we need our forwards to constantly back check and be in good positions (which they did perfectly tonight. It's really too bad that you can never truly see how players, who might not be involved directly in the play, back check on TV as it always focuses on the puck.). We keep the opponent on the outside, play sound positioning and collapse up front if they try to squeeze in. Forwards have to be smart and quick to get in the shooting lanes if puck goes up to the point.

As for us dumping it in, well, other than Gomez, not too many players can carry the puck in. Gionta and Cammy are quite bad at it. Plekanec rarely dekes anybody. Gomez does it best due to his speed but even him if they clog up the blue line will dump it and retrieve it, AK will do it thanks to his stickhandling. So really, dump and chase is probably our best option most of the time. Once we retrieve it, we cycle it nicely.

You can be against Martin's system because it's certainly not the most entertaining one, but it definitely works and tonight was a great example of it.

I think Chicago got lucky earlier, we were completely dominating them. We stepped it up even more after the 1st goal but the Ref made a horrible call (what else is new?) on AK to kill our momentum. It evened out pretty much the rest of the game up until a small stretch where Chicago was lighting it up. Overall, it was a pretty close game, neither team really wanted to take risks, both goalies had to make key saves at times, and we earned our victory.

I am jealous that you were at the game and I was not.

Honestly, though, Price saved us once again. It was not Martin's system. It was Price's ability to make several Sports Center type quality saves.

If Price is spectacular, we win. If Price is great, we lose a close game. If Price is average, we get blown out.

I do agree that our DMen are slow. However, I feel more comfortable with them battling for the puck on the boards behind Price than watching forwards skate in untouched and use Carey Price for target practice.

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Old
04-05-2011, 11:48 PM
  #354
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Yeah, the win is all on Price. Despite Crawford making several key and spectacular saves himself.

What a double standard.

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04-05-2011, 11:50 PM
  #355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I am jealous that you were at the game and I was not.

Honestly, though, Price saved us once again. It was not Martin's system. It was Price's ability to make several Sports Center type quality saves.

If Price is spectacular, we win. If Price is great, we lose a close game. If Price is average, we get blown out.

I do agree that our DMen are slow. However, I feel more comfortable with them battling for the puck on the boards behind Price than watching forwards skate in untouched and use Carey Price for target practice.
That's silly, cammalleri had more chances than the entire Chicago squad combined. I'm obviously exaggerating but the point remains that if it weren't for Crawford's heroics in the first two periods, then we could EASILY have put this game away. It IS frustrating when a goalie makes quality save after quality save, you can't neglect the mental impact this can have on a team that's hanging by a thread to make the playoffs. I'm happy that the habs showed resilience in an important match and got it done, you couldn't have asked for a more pleasurable outcome (given the insane goaltending clinic). Price obviously played a big part in the win but the game was by and large evenly matched.

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04-06-2011, 12:16 AM
  #356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I am jealous that you were at the game and I was not.

Honestly, though, Price saved us once again. It was not Martin's system. It was Price's ability to make several Sports Center type quality saves.

If Price is spectacular, we win. If Price is great, we lose a close game. If Price is average, we get blown out.

I do agree that our DMen are slow. However, I feel more comfortable with them battling for the puck on the boards behind Price than watching forwards skate in untouched and use Carey Price for target practice.
and yet, one of the reasons it went to OT is Chicago goaltending...

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04-06-2011, 12:46 AM
  #357
Kriss E
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
I am jealous that you were at the game and I was not.

Honestly, though, Price saved us once again. It was not Martin's system. It was Price's ability to make several Sports Center type quality saves.

If Price is spectacular, we win. If Price is great, we lose a close game. If Price is average, we get blown out.

I do agree that our DMen are slow. However, I feel more comfortable with them battling for the puck on the boards behind Price than watching forwards skate in untouched and use Carey Price for target practice.
As others have pointed out, Crawford made just as many key saves as Price.

You know it isn't a coincidence that goaltenders playing under defensive systems usually put up great stats and look amazing. People have a tough time giving a coach credit for much, so they'll usually end up giving it to the goalies. But the system helps them a lot.

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Old
04-06-2011, 01:26 AM
  #358
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It pisses me off that LCN keeps showing Laraque saying ''Carbo, c'est un Jack Adams à chaque année comparé à Jacques Martin'' ... yet Carbo is coaching his team in the juniors.

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04-06-2011, 01:29 AM
  #359
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Originally Posted by Capitaine Gionta View Post
It pisses me off that LCN keeps showing Laraque saying ''Carbo, c'est un Jack Adams à chaque année comparé à Jacques Martin'' ... yet Carbo is coaching his team in the juniors.
Holy dude is there something you enjoy in life besides being negative?

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04-06-2011, 06:32 AM
  #360
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Habs back into playoffs again

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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
What a double standard.
Habs back into playoffs again

Literally. On ultra-slow-motion replay it is seen that PK Subban was actually skating BACKWARDS at the moment he struck the puck which fooled Corey Crawford and flukily floated by his usually solid glove.

Yes, for the second year in a row, the Habs barely squeak into the playoffs with a disappointing overtime game in front of their own fans. Can't even win a game in regulation when they have to. The 1-1 score after three periods flattered this poorly-run and poorly-coached team. In fact, if not for the horseshoe up backup goaltender Carey Price's behind, the Black Hawks would have scored 43 goals. It is especially maddening to see Price, who made no effort to stop Patrick Kane's average shot, playing nets almost every night when number one goalie Eurosave I-Like was sent to star in Saint Louis for no reason other than to just punish his chatty agent.

This team gets almost every decision wrong. For just one example, management gave away Matt D'Agostini who is now a regular in the very strong Western Conference while keeping disrespectful PK Subban over him. The kid simply can't play the wight way, as Darren Pang has noted, and was a HEALTHY SCRATCH five freakin times! What a waste of a second-round draft pick that could have been better used instead to rent Olli Jokinen for a month back in 06-07.

The team's defensive "system" is non-existent. There is no consistency. The number of shots given up each game varies WAY too much. Over 30 times this year, we allowed the other team to shoot more than we do, while in many of the remaining games, a lot of our own shots were weak, as evidenced by the fact that opposing goaltenders stop most of them.

We only won three shootouts this year, one of the worst records in the league. This goes to show the terrible talent Pierre Gauthier has assembled. And Jacques Martin? He kills offense just by getting up in the morning. For example, after seeing what Nigel Dawes could do on an unmolested penalty shot, he still managed to kill this budding superstar's confidence and Dawes was not able to do a single other thing right for the team.

I don't know what some people in the minority are all excited about this morning. Sure we made the playoffs, but there is a very good chance we will not win the Cup. And we all know whose fault that is.

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04-08-2011, 12:49 PM
  #361
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- ridiculousness -

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04-24-2011, 03:11 PM
  #362
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Habs back into playoffs again

Literally. On ultra-slow-motion replay it is seen that PK Subban was actually skating BACKWARDS at the moment he struck the puck which fooled Corey Crawford and flukily floated by his usually solid glove.

Yes, for the second year in a row, the Habs barely squeak into the playoffs with a disappointing overtime game in front of their own fans. Can't even win a game in regulation when they have to. The 1-1 score after three periods flattered this poorly-run and poorly-coached team. In fact, if not for the horseshoe up backup goaltender Carey Price's behind, the Black Hawks would have scored 43 goals. It is especially maddening to see Price, who made no effort to stop Patrick Kane's average shot, playing nets almost every night when number one goalie Eurosave I-Like was sent to star in Saint Louis for no reason other than to just punish his chatty agent.

This team gets almost every decision wrong. For just one example, management gave away Matt D'Agostini who is now a regular in the very strong Western Conference while keeping disrespectful PK Subban over him. The kid simply can't play the wight way, as Darren Pang has noted, and was a HEALTHY SCRATCH five freakin times! What a waste of a second-round draft pick that could have been better used instead to rent Olli Jokinen for a month back in 06-07.

The team's defensive "system" is non-existent. There is no consistency. The number of shots given up each game varies WAY too much. Over 30 times this year, we allowed the other team to shoot more than we do, while in many of the remaining games, a lot of our own shots were weak, as evidenced by the fact that opposing goaltenders stop most of them.

We only won three shootouts this year, one of the worst records in the league. This goes to show the terrible talent Pierre Gauthier has assembled. And Jacques Martin? He kills offense just by getting up in the morning. For example, after seeing what Nigel Dawes could do on an unmolested penalty shot, he still managed to kill this budding superstar's confidence and Dawes was not able to do a single other thing right for the team.

I don't know what some people in the minority are all excited about this morning. Sure we made the playoffs, but there is a very good chance we will not win the Cup. And we all know whose fault that is.
I think one of Martin's biggest weaknesses is failure to adjust. He stifles creativity because he doesn't understand it. And when the opposition throws a different look at the Habs, he just plods on never adapting to these changes.

Technically, I think he knows his own system better than any coach in the league but there is never any deviation from that one standard approach.

One thing that has bothered me is his reluctance to give youth a chance. I think he goes back to the veterans because he knows what they have done in the past and is under some delusion that they can produce the same results they did before. Because rookies have a limited history he has no reference point by which to gauge what they might accomplish. In other words, he doesn't seem to have the vision to recognize how a talent might develop. He continues to look backward at what has been done in the past rather than forward at what might be done in the future.

Until that changes, we will be watching the stifling low-scoring games that have become a trademark of the Canadiens under Martin.

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