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2011 NHL Entry Draft/Other Prospects (All NON-RANGERS Prospect Discussion - Part 2)

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Old
04-02-2011, 11:20 AM
  #176
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People want Saad because they like the player who they think he is, not who he really is.

They think he is gritty, competitive, and hard-working, but this season he has showed that he's sort of the opposite.

He uses his size to protect the puck, and he has good speed; two things he does well. But a skater with that type of body should be a lot more physical, and have a competitive mindset and work ethic to boot. That is why he is falling. He just is not a very smart player. In my opinion he is just another Blake Wheeler.

The other once highly touted American skater, Seth Ambroz, embodies more of what people think Saad is. The only downfall to Ambroz is his skating ability which is average, but that is something that can be worked on.

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04-02-2011, 11:23 AM
  #177
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I coulda swore I remembered seeing some where that cantenacci had some character issues?

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04-02-2011, 11:46 AM
  #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DatsyukSOGoal View Post
People want Saad because they like the player who they think he is, not who he really is.

They think he is gritty, competitive, and hard-working, but this season he has showed that he's sort of the opposite.

He uses his size to protect the puck, and he has good speed; two things he does well. But a skater with that type of body should be a lot more physical, and have a competitive mindset and work ethic to boot. That is why he is falling. He just is not a very smart player. In my opinion he is just another Blake Wheeler.

The other once highly touted American skater, Seth Ambroz, embodies more of what people think Saad is. The only downfall to Ambroz is his skating ability which is average, but that is something that can be worked on.
I don't want either of them. If I was going to spend a first round pick on a power forward, I would have to be damn sure that he was going to be a really, really good player (or in the case of Kreider, have incomparable physical abilities) because power forwards are simply not that valuable unless they're top notch. I'm definitely not convinced that either of these guys are going to be that good.

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04-02-2011, 12:00 PM
  #179
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But softer "skill" guys aren't that valuable unless they're top notch either. 1st line power forwards like say, Rick Nash, are just as valuable as a sniper. Not saying Saad or Ambroz are on that level, I agree with you in not wanting them since we already have a good balance of power forwards in the system, but I'd take a power forward with top 6 upside just as much as another type with top 6 upside if I needed both.

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04-02-2011, 04:19 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Based on what? You do this with Kreider, you did this with Niederreiter, and now, you're doing this with Saad. His "smarts" aren't underrated, because smarts haven't been displayed to be judged.


Or for the reason that he's neither that smart or that skilled, and not a very mature player on the ice.
And yet, they're highly regarded by pro scouts, from NHL organizations


Quote:
Because being pushed around is the problem for this team?
It is A problem, yes, it is.

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04-02-2011, 04:23 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
And yet, they're highly regarded by pro scouts, from NHL organizations
This argument means nothing. Daigle was highly regarded by NHL organizations and scouts. Hugh Jessiman was highly regarded by NHL organizations and scouts.

Kreider's hockey sense is the weakest part of his game. And from what I've read, same for Nino. I want a player with talent and smarts. Like a Zibaenjad.

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It is A problem, yes, it is.
No, but being outscored and outclassed talent wise is.

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04-02-2011, 04:25 PM
  #182
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We have tons of "talent" with players like Gaborik, Christensen, and Wolski

and yet it is the "3rd liners" who are the most effective players and have carried this team all year long.

Get me a guy who can play all aspects of the game. The flash and zest of Zherdev type players I can do without.

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04-02-2011, 04:28 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Fitzy Duke of NY View Post
We have tons of "talent" with players like Gaborik, Christensen, and Wolski

and yet it is the "3rd liners" who are the most effective players and have carried this team all year long.

Get me a guy who can play all aspects of the game. The flash and zest of Zherdev type players I can do without.
Those are not the type of "talent players" I'm talking about.

We're talking about guys who combine skill and smarts. Players the Rangers never seem to have.

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04-02-2011, 04:32 PM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
And yet, they're highly regarded by pro scouts, from NHL organizations




It is A problem, yes, it is.
I wouldn't say being pushed around is a problem. I think what you are seeing is them being outplayed (like in the recent Isles game). This team does quite its share of pushing other teams around. Dubinsky, Callahan, Prust, and Boyle among others are tough guys on this team, they don't mind getting down and dirty if they have to.

With Saad, obviously the scouts know more than any of us at HFBoards. Character issues aren't always a concern. That will all be determined by the interviews he has with teams, as well as his poise on the ice. Sometimes the attitude of a player completely changes under the right coaching staffs and teams.

Going back to what I said before about him not being a gritty, hardworking, competitive player... who knows... maybe Torts is a guy who can change him if he is still the Rangers coach in 2-3 years.

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04-02-2011, 05:08 PM
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DatsyukSOGoal View Post
People want Saad because they like the player who they think he is, not who he really is.

They think he is gritty, competitive, and hard-working, but this season he has showed that he's sort of the opposite.

He uses his size to protect the puck, and he has good speed; two things he does well. But a skater with that type of body should be a lot more physical, and have a competitive mindset and work ethic to boot. That is why he is falling. He just is not a very smart player. In my opinion he is just another Blake Wheeler.

The other once highly touted American skater, Seth Ambroz, embodies more of what people think Saad is. The only downfall to Ambroz is his skating ability which is average, but that is something that can be worked on.
biggs is the best of the americans imo

and im not a biggs guy what so ever.

i think saad just doesnt have the edge one is looking for in a guy with that kinda size

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04-02-2011, 06:05 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Steven Mastrosimone View Post
This argument means nothing. Daigle was highly regarded by NHL organizations and scouts. Hugh Jessiman was highly regarded by NHL organizations and scouts.

Kreider's hockey sense is the weakest part of his game. And from what I've read, same for Nino. I want a player with talent and smarts. Like a Zibaenjad.



No, but being outscored and outclassed talent wise is.
The argument does mean something. And throwing out names of players that didn't make it, doesn't refute it.

Every player in the history of the NHL draft, and before there was a draft was regarded by professionals.

The fact that some make it or don't is not an indictment of the fact.

Kreider's "smarts" are not the "weakest" part of his game. In fact it's probably the part of his game that has developed the most since being drafted.

People throw around "smarts" and claim with full authority the players they feel don't have "smarts". Do they know what these "smarts" they talk about actually are.


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04-02-2011, 06:13 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by DatsyukSOGoal View Post
I wouldn't say being pushed around is a problem. I think what you are seeing is them being outplayed (like in the recent Isles game). This team does quite its share of pushing other teams around. Dubinsky, Callahan, Prust, and Boyle among others are tough guys on this team, they don't mind getting down and dirty if they have to.

With Saad, obviously the scouts know more than any of us at HFBoards. Character issues aren't always a concern. That will all be determined by the interviews he has with teams, as well as his poise on the ice. Sometimes the attitude of a player completely changes under the right coaching staffs and teams.

Going back to what I said before about him not being a gritty, hardworking, competitive player... who knows... maybe Torts is a guy who can change him if he is still the Rangers coach in 2-3 years.

The Rangers could be considered one of the more physical teams in the league, sure.

When playing a team with size top to bottom in it's lineup, such as Boston and Anaheim, they can not compete unless they block every shot on goal.

Sometimes going hard to the net successfully and being effective on the boards and down low requires more then will and energy.


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04-02-2011, 06:14 PM
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Mastrosimone View Post
This argument means nothing. Daigle was highly regarded by NHL organizations and scouts. Hugh Jessiman was highly regarded by NHL organizations and scouts.

Kreider's hockey sense is the weakest part of his game. And from what I've read, same for Nino. I want a player with talent and smarts. Like a Zibaenjad.



No, but being outscored and outclassed talent wise is.
He has the size and speed to beat defenders, and the skill to create offensively.

He's young. He will learn to use his body as he grows both mentally and physically.


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04-03-2011, 10:19 AM
  #189
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
The argument does mean something. And throwing out names of players that didn't make it, doesn't refute it.

Every player in the history of the NHL draft, and before there was a draft was regarded by professionals.

The fact that some make it or don't is not an indictment of the fact.

Kreider's "smarts" are not the "weakest" part of his game. In fact it's probably the part of his game that has developed the most since being drafted.

People throw around "smarts" and claim with full authority the players they feel don't have "smarts". Do they know what these "smarts" they talk about actually are.
Smarts are hard to quantify so sometimes when guys constantly harp on smarts it sounds like a broken record and like they don't really have anything tangible to critique but there are aspects of D, positioning, and away from the puck play that indicate whether a player knows what's going on, or has smarts, and it is something that can be critiqued. But then yea credit should be given where it is due smarts can be developed like any physical issue can be developed like size or speed/skating ability. People who talk as if 18 year old draftee's can't get smarter as hockey players are the ones who sound like they have no clue what they are talking about.

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04-03-2011, 10:40 AM
  #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Kreider's "smarts" are not the "weakest" part of his game. In fact it's probably the part of his game that has developed the most since being drafted.

People throw around "smarts" and claim with full authority the players they feel don't have "smarts". Do they know what these "smarts" they talk about actually are.
Do you? Kreider's "smarts" have developed. That doesn't mean it still isn't a point of concern. It doesn't mean that they are where they have to be for him to be as good of an NHL player as some are expecting him to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
The Rangers could be considered one of the more physical teams in the league, sure.

When playing a team with size top to bottom in it's lineup, such as Boston and Anaheim, they can not compete unless they block every shot on goal.

Sometimes going hard to the net successfully and being effective on the boards and down low requires more then will and energy.
But that's because of the team's drastic lack of talent and inability to score, not because they're being pushed around. The Rangers are not the toughest team in the league. Maybe they aren't as tough as Anaheim or Boston, but then, how many teams are? The Rangers are tough enough to compete physically with most teams in the league, which means that it's not nearly as an important a problem as offensive skill and talent, an area where the Rangers clearly can't compete with most teams in the league.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
He has the size and speed to beat defenders, and the skill to create offensively.

He's young. He will learn to use his body as he grows both mentally and physically.
Making the prediction that someone will grow into their body physically is a lot safer than guessing that they'll put it all together mentally.

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04-03-2011, 11:01 AM
  #191
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I agree with Sting to some extent.

If Kreider figures everything out, -and that is a tall order for the kid- I think he could be a Rick Nash-lite.

But with his hockey sense, he could either turn out to be a 3rd like PK type, or it might, hopefully not, keep him out of the NHL altogether.

Kid has quite a package of size and speed, though.

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04-03-2011, 01:27 PM
  #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzy Duke of NY View Post
I agree with Sting to some extent.

If Kreider figures everything out, -and that is a tall order for the kid- I think he could be a Rick Nash-lite.

But with his hockey sense, he could either turn out to be a 3rd like PK type, or it might, hopefully not, keep him out of the NHL altogether.

Kid has quite a package of size and speed, though.
Agreed 100%, I mean we call out some of the "weakness" this kid have -- but, had he not had any weakness, this kid would never have made it out of the top 3 of any draft basically. He would at least have become a Jordan Staal type of player.

The kid do not have elite offensive creativity, he struggles at getting involved more then anything else. In certain sitautions he is untstoppable, but he ain't really capable of putting himself in a position to get those "situations" so to speak. Its definitely not impossible that he will be able to take that step -- but youd like to see more improvement this season for sure. If he ain't able to take that step -- then he could still become a very solid NHLer for sure.

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04-04-2011, 07:35 PM
  #193
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The Rangers do not have size on the wings. Plain and simple.

They have some decent size down the middle with Boyle and Anisimov.

Callahan, Zuccarello, Avery, Fedotenko, Prospal, Gaborik...

When teams start locking things down, you need guys who have the size and strength to win battles on the boards and get through the neutral zone and through to the net.

They do not have enough size right now.

They lack more skill, yes, but a guy like Zuccarello has all the skill in the world, too. Skill isn't everythin just like size isn't everything.

But when you lack both overall, its an issue.

They need more size up front.

Kreider, Grachev, Werek can help that.

Saad doesn't lack "smarts" I've seen him play. I've seen him be in position defensively to break up a play or create a scoring opportunity.

He has a package that can make him successful at the pro level.

He's 17 and still developing. Anything he needs to improve can be improved.

You look at a kid like him with his combination of size, speed, and skill. And its hard to pass on that.

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04-06-2011, 02:57 PM
  #194
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If the Rangers make the playoffs,looks like they will pick #15 or #16. 95 points in the max. Gotta figure Anaheim and Chicago tied with 93 points and 3 games left will have more than 95 points. Swapping a 2nd round pick to move up 4-5 spots gets them to #10-#12.

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04-06-2011, 07:09 PM
  #195
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I was looking at the Central Scouting draft rankings on NHL.com and I saw that Ryan Strome is rated at 19th for North American skaters. What happened? I thought he was up there with Landeskog, Couturier, RNH and Larsson earlier in the year. Any chance he'll be available around where we're picking?

EDIT: Typo.

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04-06-2011, 09:44 PM
  #196
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I was looking at the Central Scouting draft rankings on NHL.com and I saw that Ryan Strome is rated at 19th for North American skaters. What happened? I thought he was up there with Landeskog, Couturier, RNH and Larsson earlier in the year. Any chance he'll be available around where we're picking?

EDIT: Typo.
Who even knows at this point? This draft is so terrible, that there are no cemented positions at all.

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04-06-2011, 09:58 PM
  #197
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Who even knows at this point? This draft is so terrible, that there are no cemented positions at all.
I don't want to argue or cause controversy but this whole "the 2011 Draft is crap" theory; I just don't buy it.

There may not be superstars but there will be players who can have very solid NHL careers and if the Rangers land 2-4 of them, that's not bad.

There have been drafts called generational that yielded meh results, and drafts that were not considered "sexy" to steal a Renney line that there's been good talent in. Every draft has it's Daigles and Stefans, but also it's Zetterburgs, Lundqvists, etc, and most definitely it's Jonathan Erikson, Patrick Hornqvists, and once in a while a Sergei Zubov.

I highly doubt all of Saad, Armia, Zibanejad, McNeil, Hamilton, Grimaldi, Jenner, Nieto, Prince, etc. all become busts or fringe 4th liners.

Rangers have a very good Scouting Staff for the first time in forever with Gordie Clark, Jeff Gorton, Hedberg, Luchenko, and even a little input from Graves and Mess. Gordie will find talent; he always does.

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04-06-2011, 10:29 PM
  #198
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I don't want to argue or cause controversy but this whole "the 2011 Draft is crap" theory; I just don't buy it.

There may not be superstars but there will be players who can have very solid NHL careers and if the Rangers land 2-4 of them, that's not bad.

There have been drafts called generational that yielded meh results, and drafts that were not considered "sexy" to steal a Renney line that there's been good talent in. Every draft has it's Daigles and Stefans, but also it's Zetterburgs, Lundqvists, etc, and most definitely it's Jonathan Erikson, Patrick Hornqvists, and once in a while a Sergei Zubov.

I highly doubt all of Saad, Armia, Zibanejad, McNeil, Hamilton, Grimaldi, Jenner, Nieto, Prince, etc. all become busts or fringe 4th liners.

Rangers have a very good Scouting Staff for the first time in forever with Gordie Clark, Jeff Gorton, Hedberg, Luchenko, and even a little input from Graves and Mess. Gordie will find talent; he always does.
I also don't buy the line about this being a weak draft. It's not the best, but I'm sure it'll produce some quality NHLers. However, you shouldn't expect to see as many late round steals from Russia and Sweden anymore (not that there were many to begin with). More than ever before, teams in this league understand how important it is to scout Russia and especially Sweden.

Yeah, someone will always slip, but I doubt you'll see too many more Lundqvists or Datsyuks going forward.

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04-07-2011, 12:29 AM
  #199
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It has been labeled a weak draft for years now and nothing has changed that fact. Not 1999 weak, but weak nonetheless.

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04-07-2011, 08:34 AM
  #200
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Strome at #19 in NA is interesting.

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