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I propose that a Shootout Specialist is worth more to a team than a Goon

View Poll Results: Which would you rather have?
The best heavyweight in the league to protect your team. (Not a great in game player) 14 11.97%
The best shootout specialist in the league, just in case. (Not a great in game player) 78 66.67%
Neither, don't waste a spot for them. 25 21.37%
Voters: 117. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
04-06-2011, 09:28 PM
  #101
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I voted: Neither.

In a salary capped league, you can not waste cap space and/or roster spots on niche players.

Also new in the league this year and moving forward: REGULATION WINS as one of the main tie-breakers. Regulation wins are now more important then they were.

You can't waste roster spots on any kind of specialist that doesn't impact the game 5v5 and special teams.

Meet halfway. Brandon Prust is a fighter/agitator, and a heck of a player that can play 5v5 and be very effective on the PK.

To me, guys on the lower lines need to be the backbone of the lineup and contribute to a team in more then one way.

Do not play for the shootout. And don't waste time on talentless goons.

A guy like Hagelin or Werek may be able to step in on the 4th line in October and impact the game by giving Boyle and Prust a more stable linemate 5v5 and contribute on the PK, and in Werek's case also help on faceoffs.

Or maybe Avery has a more consistent season (last on his contract) and settles in there with Boyle and Prust.

A lot is also going to hinge on Brad Richards and Chris Drury.

If Richards signs, or if he doesn't, and if Drury retires or stays, will greatly effect the makeup of the lineup top to bottom as the salary cap will be greatly effected.

Can't sign Richards without Drury retiring. If Drury doesn't retire, then he's on the 3rd and 4th lines, and that blocks a kid from taking a spot there, too.

Anyway, all the cap space is valuable, everyone on the roster NEEDS to be able to contribute both 5v5 and one of the special teams PK or PP.

Also with parity, every game matters. That means special teams need to be effective and you need to be able to contribute 5v5.

Bang for your buck is immensly important.

Look at Nashville.

They get overlooked a lot. But a lot of bang for your buck there. Well run organization. Finding value.

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Old
04-06-2011, 10:21 PM
  #102
NYR Sting
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Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
I would say take a poll...but you and all your buddies think alike.
Yes, all of his "buddies" understand the fundamental tenets of the sport and are able to make conclusions based on abundant evidence and good old common sense.

Quote:
Everyone is in love with Richards and Flower...but I would take Clowe and McIlrath and then having small skilled guys like Thomas, Horak, Bourque, Zucc and Hagelin wouldn't be a hinderance.
So not only would that team still lack a single elite playmaking center, but you actually think that all of those players are going to be on this team, and that they'll all be as good as you expect? All of them? Really?

But who cares, because we'll have McIlrath in the lineup. He'll really shore up our big problems with our 5th ranked defense.

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I will bet you anything you want...if Bruins and Habs meet up...the Bruins will destroy the Habs...if the rangers do not incorporate size and grit, we will be another version of the Habs.
WOW! What a prediction! You mean the Bruins, who are better at every position than the Habs, are going to destroy them? And then you go on to say that we will be another version of the Habs? Remarkable. What insight. Never mind the fact that we already are incredibly similar to the Habs, primarily because of the fact that both teams are bereft of high-end skill and talent.

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I always used the '94 team as a point of reference, that is how you build a winning team, guys who could play and break your face if they had to.
And, as always, your point of reference is completely irrelevant, since we are in the year 2011 and the game and the way it is played has changed rather dramatically, whether you like it or not.

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Can't have all pansies on your team, as much as you would like that.
By pansies, you of course mean hockey players who aren't interested in engaging in a pointless and, in most cases, boring "fight" that serves absolutely no purpose and in almost every case, fails to impact the game in any way, shape or form.

Perhaps you could actually argue against the point that people who disagree with you are making rather than using words like "pansies," but I suppose you'd have to be capable of crafting such an argument to make it.

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04-06-2011, 10:52 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
My theory. In the past teams kept goons on their roster as specialty players. Players who could impact a game with a fight. I think as the game evolves, teams are going to be keeping roster spots just for guys who are awesome in the shootout.

So, my question. Which is worth more right now. The best heavyweight in the league, or the best shootout specialist in the league?
Shootout guy, no questions.

Rangers problem is.....both are worthless in the playoffs.

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04-07-2011, 07:21 AM
  #104
Orr Nightmare
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Yes, all of his "buddies" understand the fundamental tenets of the sport and are able to make conclusions based on abundant evidence and good old common sense.



So not only would that team still lack a single elite playmaking center, but you actually think that all of those players are going to be on this team, and that they'll all be as good as you expect? All of them? Really?

But who cares, because we'll have McIlrath in the lineup. He'll really shore up our big problems with our 5th ranked defense.



WOW! What a prediction! You mean the Bruins, who are better at every position than the Habs, are going to destroy them? And then you go on to say that we will be another version of the Habs? Remarkable. What insight. Never mind the fact that we already are incredibly similar to the Habs, primarily because of the fact that both teams are bereft of high-end skill and talent.



And, as always, your point of reference is completely irrelevant, since we are in the year 2011 and the game and the way it is played has changed rather dramatically, whether you like it or not.



By pansies, you of course mean hockey players who aren't interested in engaging in a pointless and, in most cases, boring "fight" that serves absolutely no purpose and in almost every case, fails to impact the game in any way, shape or form.

Perhaps you could actually argue against the point that people who disagree with you are making rather than using words like "pansies," but I suppose you'd have to be capable of crafting such an argument to make it.
All we need is Richards and we win the cup...that has been you tired argument.

How many hours does it take you to come up with these replies.

You would rather have McIlrath fail just you can validate your existence instead of hoping he turns out to be the player the real Ranger fans hope he turns out to be.

'94 is irrelevant to you because you weren't born yet.

Let me ask you something, who would you rather have on your team David Krejci or Milan Lucic?

I am not sure you able to comprehend...but I would like Richards on my team...but they would need to surround him with some more size.

You can take the next 6 hours and spin this anyway you want.

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04-07-2011, 08:17 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post

What, Ryan Clowe, Chris Neil and Derek Boogaard are not the same person...

Goons are a dying bread..but they are not dead yet.
You're right, they're not. Two out of those three can actually play. Clowe is not a goon. Neither is Neil.

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04-07-2011, 09:57 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
All we need is Richards and we win the cup...that has been you tired argument.
No, as usual you don't seem able to comprehend what someone's argument actually is. I've never said that. Not once. Try arguing things that I've actually said.

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How many hours does it take you to come up with these replies.
Hours? Seriously? Mere minutes, my man. A 4th grader could rip your "argument" to shreds. We have a 15 year old around here that could and probably has already made mince meat out of you.

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You would rather have McIlrath fail just you can validate your existence instead of hoping he turns out to be the player the real Ranger fans hope he turns out to be.
Validate my existence? What does that even mean? Thanks for telling me what I would rather have, but AFAIC, it doesn't matter how good McIlrath is, because the pick is already a failure You don't choose one dimensional "defensive" defensemen with the 10th pick in the draft, especially when you aren't getting any picks that high again for a while, when you have the organizational makeup this club has.

And I don't need anything validated. I've had more than enough validation in the time since I started watching this sport to feel confident about what I think.

You're a real Ranger fan? You're not even a real hockey fan, much less a real Ranger fan. How can you be a real Ranger fan when all you do is advocate for the Rangers to do things that would be detrimental to their success?

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'94 is irrelevant to you because you weren't born yet.
Actually, professor, yes I was, and 1994 is plenty relevant to me. That doesn't make it relevant in a discussion about what needs to be done to win in the NHL in 2011. Regardless, you're in no position to make remarks about someone's age. If you never made references to your age, I'd guess you were a junior high school student based on the way you "argue" and "analyze" the game.

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Let me ask you something, who would you rather have on your team David Krejci or Milan Lucic?
Let me ask you something. Do you not realize what a thoughtless question this? Doesn't it depend entirely on what the rest of my team looks like? Wouldn't I obviously prefer Lucic if my team already had enough players that did what Krejci does, or vice versa?

If you're talking about my team as in the New York Rangers, then it's a no brainer. Of course, I'd rather have Krejci.

Quote:
I am not sure you able to comprehend...but I would like Richards on my team...but they would need to surround him with some more size.
I comprehend just fine. I comprehend that you think some fantasy about having Ryane Clowe and Dylan McIlrath would make this a better team than having Brad Richards. That's what you said. I think that's one of the more ridiculous statements you've made since you began posting here, and you've made more than a few stand outs already.

Quote:
You can take the next 6 hours and spin this anyway you want.
Where did I spin anything? You refer to the best hockey players in the world as pansies, you reduce other poster's arguments to something that barely resembles what they actually said. You've done more than enough spinning already.

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Old
04-07-2011, 10:24 AM
  #107
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.Everything Orr says the Rangers agree with..The Rangers actually signed Boogaard..The Rangers drafted McNasty because they loved him....I will trust the Rangers Scouts more than a bunch of kids on this board..Look at our picks lately..Bigger and stronger kids from North America..It is what it is..S

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04-07-2011, 10:38 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by surf View Post
.Everything Orr says the Rangers agree with..The Rangers actually signed Boogaard ar..The Rangers drafted McNasty because they loved him....I will trust the Rangers Scouts more than a bunch of kids on this board..Look at our picks lately..Bigger and stronger kids from North America..It is what it is.
Well, if the Rangers agree with it, then it must be true. Because the Rangers are clearly the model of success in the NHL. Cleary, signing Boogaard was a great decision. As great as all of the other outstanding acquisitions the Rangers have made.

Seems to me that the majority of the world's best hockey players aren't big strong kids from North America, but smart, quick, and skilled players (many from Europe) that easily outsmart the big strong American kids. Seems to me that the best, most effective and efficient players in the world realize that fighting and excessive hitting is a waste of energy.

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04-07-2011, 10:46 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
You're right, they're not. Two out of those three can actually play. Clowe is not a goon. Neither is Neil.
All I want is to have players on our team that offer protection for our star players and our kids.

Clowe would serve so many different roles on this team. Neil while not a goon does offer protection. Boogey is a stiff but he is here and unless he retires or gets sent to the AHL, he is going to have to play some games, Torts have to find a way to incorporate him in next year.

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04-07-2011, 10:51 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by surf View Post
.Everything Orr says the Rangers agree with..The Rangers actually signed Boogaard..The Rangers drafted McNasty because they loved him....I will trust the Rangers Scouts more than a bunch of kids on this board..Look at our picks lately..Bigger and stronger kids from North America..It is what it is..S
Ask the Rangers now if they would like a mulligan on Boogaard and what do you think they would say?

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04-07-2011, 10:53 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Well, if the Rangers agree with it, then it must be true. Because the Rangers are clearly the model of success in the NHL. Cleary, signing Boogaard was a great decision. As great as all of the other outstanding acquisitions the Rangers have made.

Seems to me that the majority of the world's best hockey players aren't big strong kids from North America, but smart, quick, and skilled players (many from Europe) that easily outsmart the big strong American kids. Seems to me that the best, most effective and efficient players in the world realize that fighting and excessive hitting is a waste of energy.
Yes, excessive hitting is a waste...Clutterbuck, Dustin Brown, Cally, Robidas, Backes, top 5 hitters in the league, those guys all suck.

Ryan Clowe has 12 fighing majors and the majority of those are coming to the aid of a smaller team...he sucks as well.

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04-07-2011, 10:58 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
Yes, excessive hitting is a waste...Clutterbuck, Dustin Brown, Cally, Robidas, Backes, top 5 hitters in the league, those guys all suck.

Ryan Clowe has 12 fighing majors and the majority of those are coming to the aid of a smaller team...he sucks as well.
Sting said "most efficient and effective players in the world." Clutterbuck, Brown, Cally, Robidas, and Backes don't suck at all, they're good players, but hardly the best in the world.

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04-07-2011, 11:01 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
No, as usual you don't seem able to comprehend what someone's argument actually is. I've never said that. Not once. Try arguing things that I've actually said.



Hours? Seriously? Mere minutes, my man. A 4th grader could rip your "argument" to shreds. We have a 15 year old around here that could and probably has already made mince meat out of you.



Validate my existence? What does that even mean? Thanks for telling me what I would rather have, but AFAIC, it doesn't matter how good McIlrath is, because the pick is already a failure You don't choose one dimensional "defensive" defensemen with the 10th pick in the draft, especially when you aren't getting any picks that high again for a while, when you have the organizational makeup this club has.

And I don't need anything validated. I've had more than enough validation in the time since I started watching this sport to feel confident about what I think.

You're a real Ranger fan? You're not even a real hockey fan, much less a real Ranger fan. How can you be a real Ranger fan when all you do is advocate for the Rangers to do things that would be detrimental to their success?



Actually, professor, yes I was, and 1994 is plenty relevant to me. That doesn't make it relevant in a discussion about what needs to be done to win in the NHL in 2011. Regardless, you're in no position to make remarks about someone's age. If you never made references to your age, I'd guess you were a junior high school student based on the way you "argue" and "analyze" the game.



Let me ask you something. Do you not realize what a thoughtless question this? Doesn't it depend entirely on what the rest of my team looks like? Wouldn't I obviously prefer Lucic if my team already had enough players that did what Krejci does, or vice versa?

If you're talking about my team as in the New York Rangers, then it's a no brainer. Of course, I'd rather have Krejci.



I comprehend just fine. I comprehend that you think some fantasy about having Ryane Clowe and Dylan McIlrath would make this a better team than having Brad Richards. That's what you said. I think that's one of the more ridiculous statements you've made since you began posting here, and you've made more than a few stand outs already.



Where did I spin anything? You refer to the best hockey players in the world as pansies, you reduce other poster's arguments to something that barely resembles what they actually said. You've done more than enough spinning already.
I am 37, I have suffered a long time as a Ranger fan, the Rangers are finally starting to build the team the right. The only player you like from this past draft is Jesper Fasth, right, how predictable.

If McILrath turns into Shea Weber, would you admit you are wrong or would you still perfer Erik Karlsson or Dmitry Kulikov.

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04-07-2011, 12:40 PM
  #114
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Dude you are wasting your time.No matter what you say "they" all want ice dancers.
Its the new NHL Bettman has given us and its the only NHL 75% of this board knows.I admire your fight but its lost on here.
I have probably been watching since before you were soiling diapers and I understand how the game used to be played. It was tough guys with talent. There were almost no talentless goons. You long for something that never existed. Those of us that disagree with you love guys like Prust and Callahan necause we jave a better understanding of what a tough hockey player actually is.

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04-07-2011, 01:05 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by surf View Post
Dude you are wasting your time.No matter what you say "they" all want ice dancers.Its the new NHL Bettman has given us and its the only NHL 75% of this board knows.I admire your fight but its lost on here.

There is a huge difference between a goon and a guy like SHelley was for us last year or prust is for us this year. You make it sound like anyone who doesn't like the idea of a goon automatically hates tough hockey and the two are not the same at all.

To Orr it just seems like you're really devalueing how much grit and toughness this team has. Would adding more like Clowe help? I think so heck yea but this team is lightyears tougher than last year or previous years. So b/c I don't like goons does this mean I want all "ballerina's" on the team now? C'mon it's like you're fighting with someone who isn't there. The way this team plays though having an enforcer who plays (not just a goon) would be a pretty big boost. Personally I'd take a BR and an enforcer.

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04-07-2011, 02:12 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Ask the Rangers now if they would like a mulligan on Boogaard and what do you think they would say?
the guy is hurt. got hurt fighting. if that was anyone else on the Rangers taking that punch they most likely be hurt too. Why such disrespect for the guy?

If you guys dont like his style of play, fine. He doesn't "suck" because he got hurt.

The Rangers signed him. period. If they could go back and take a mulligan, i doubt the Boogaard signing would be high on their list.

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04-07-2011, 02:25 PM
  #117
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I have probably been watching since before you were soiling diapers and I understand how the game used to be played. It was tough guys with talent. There were almost no talentless goons. You long for something that never existed. Those of us that disagree with you love guys like Prust and Callahan necause we jave a better understanding of what a tough hockey player actually is.
So, you have no problem with Prust fighting Eric Bolton, Milan Lucic, Mike Rupp, Engelland, because I do, the reason is, I respect Prust too much as a player and he shouldn't have to do that heavy lifting.

I wonder how much better Prust would be this year if he wasn't playing with just one shoulder because he has to fight guys so much bigger than him.

I think the Rangers are one elite player (Richards possibly), power forward (Clowe, Stewart) and crease clearing dman (McIlrath) away from doing some real damage for a very long time.

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04-07-2011, 02:39 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by beef 4 lunch View Post
the guy is hurt. got hurt fighting. if that was anyone else on the Rangers taking that punch they most likely be hurt too. Why such disrespect for the guy?

If you guys dont like his style of play, fine. He doesn't "suck" because he got hurt.

The Rangers signed him. period. If they could go back and take a mulligan, i doubt the Boogaard signing would be high on their list.
I never said he "sucks". What I have said is he's one dimensional. And plays a role that is becoming increasingly marginalized in the league. And you can't waste a roster spot on a player like that. And certainly not the kind of player that you need to invest and commit millions of dollars and multiple years to.

BTW, he's hurt is minimizing it. They now have a guy who is concussion prone who's job is to punch and be punched for another three years. And as anyone who lived through Pat Lafontaine and Eric Lindros can tell you each concussion makes the next more likely and easier to get.

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04-07-2011, 02:40 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post

I wonder how much better Prust would be this year if he wasn't playing with just one shoulder because he has to fight guys so much bigger than him.
im huge prust fan, the guy has been lights out for us

but im pretty sure the answer to your question is not much...if at all

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04-07-2011, 02:41 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
So, you have no problem with Prust fighting Eric Bolton, Milan Lucic, Mike Rupp, Engelland, because I do, the reason is, I respect Prust too much as a player and he shouldn't have to do that heavy lifting.

I wonder how much better Prust would be this year if he wasn't playing with just one shoulder because he has to fight guys so much bigger than him.

I think the Rangers are one elite player (Richards possibly), power forward (Clowe, Stewart) and crease clearing dman (McIlrath) away from doing some real damage for a very long time.
How do you already know that mcIlrath ie even good enough to be an nhl player?

As has already been pointed out, your guys are not heavyweight goons. If you were a Bruins fan you would probably be freaked that Lucic was fighting goons and be clamoring for goons to take on his role.

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04-07-2011, 03:12 PM
  #121
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How do you already know that mcIlrath ie even good enough to be an nhl player?

As has already been pointed out, your guys are not heavyweight goons. If you were a Bruins fan you would probably be freaked that Lucic was fighting goons and be clamoring for goons to take on his role.
Lucic rarely takes on a goon, he has Shawn Thornton to do that.

McIlrath will be a NHL player, I know you are hoping against it but I am rooting for him.

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04-07-2011, 03:13 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by mullichicken25 View Post
im huge prust fan, the guy has been lights out for us

but im pretty sure the answer to your question is not much...if at all
OK...if i told you Prust was going to score 12-15 goals and be a key penalty killer you would have laughed....I am not willing to put a ceiling on his heart and determination...but that's just me.

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04-07-2011, 06:18 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
Lucic rarely takes on a goon, he has Shawn Thornton to do that.

McIlrath will be a NHL player, I know you are hoping against it but I am rooting for him.
Why would I root against someone I have no gripe with? Instead Of making some valid point you have spouted nonsense.

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04-07-2011, 06:52 PM
  #124
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Why would I root against someone I have no gripe with? Instead Of making some valid point you have spouted nonsense.
Your the one who is questioning if he is good enough to play in the NHL, I know he will be playing in the NHL...you know what is nonsense that I am wasting my time discussing it with you.

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04-07-2011, 07:04 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by surf View Post
.Everything Orr says the Rangers agree with..The Rangers actually signed Boogaard..The Rangers drafted McNasty because they loved him....I will trust the Rangers Scouts more than a bunch of kids on this board..Look at our picks lately..Bigger and stronger kids from North America..It is what it is..S
The Rangers scouts wanted Jessiman. The kids on this board wanted Parise.

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