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Habs should sign Wisniewski over Markov

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Old
04-08-2011, 10:13 AM
  #26
gusfring
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I don't necessarily agree with the stated premise of the thread but expecting Markov to come back and be the same player or to actually be healthy for a full year is foolish.

We MUST consider moving on.

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04-08-2011, 10:13 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by intylerwetrust View Post
Nice, you have a crystal ball! Bet you said that same at the start of this season too? Hes obviously showing to be very fragile now.
Said what at the start of the season?

Look, I just think it's foolish to give up on a player who I think is an elite defensman just because of a knee injury. Even if Markov is half the Markov he once was, he can still help the Habs big time.

I think the fact we haven't seen alot of him the last two years have made people forget how good and how influential he was/is for the Habs.

I'm a loyal Markov supporter though, so I admit my opinion may be biased.

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04-08-2011, 10:14 AM
  #28
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Sign both? It's not like we can't afford it with our plethora of UFA Dmen...

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04-08-2011, 10:14 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patccmoi View Post

I still think you should watch some old tapes from Markov though, and realize that defensively Wiz is looking ok right now but it's mostly because he's not playing against the other team's top lines, which Markov was.
Im not questioning Markov's skill, hes arguably a top 6 Dman in the NHL when healthy. BUt thats my point, is he:

a) going to be healthy given his fragile nature now
b) going to be the same player he was?

2 HUGE questions to ask before throwing a contract at him if you ask me. THeyre already paying 3 forwards too much more their production, why make it 4? Its a numbers game today, and bad contracts just cripple your franchise.

Gomez + Camm + Gionta = $18 mil cap hit... Its probably the worst cap hit to points ratio in the NHL. IMagine what they could have for $18 mil with smart spending?

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04-08-2011, 10:17 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by intylerwetrust View Post
Send him to the minors to cut his salary in half I say. If he gets picked up on waivers, OH WELL.
Actually his salary is completely off the cap if we send him to the minors (we just still have to pay him).

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04-08-2011, 10:18 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by nittany View Post
I don't necessarily agree with the stated premise of the thread but expecting Markov to come back and be the same player or to actually be healthy for a full year is foolish.We MUST consider moving on.
Why is that? I think it's foolish to think that he CAN'T be the same player...or that even if he's half the player he once was, that he still couldn't help this team.

50% of the Markov we all knew, is better than anyone not named Subban/Hamrlik/Wisniewski that is currently a defensman for the Montreal Canadiens.

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04-08-2011, 10:18 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by intylerwetrust View Post
2 UFAs? Thatll be about $8 mil per combined I reckon. You can forget about signing anyone else in that case. Id go with Wiz and Hamrlik (for 1 or 2 years) for cheaper, and try to get a winger to help their awful offense.
We will have the cap space without a problem, just Hamrlik alone makes almost 6 million. Gill will be gone, and if we can move Spacek in the off season then great if not 1 year left and then another almost 4 million come off the cap. There is room for a forward as well IMO

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04-08-2011, 10:20 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by intylerwetrust View Post
Im not questioning Markov's skill, hes arguably a top 6 Dman in the NHL when healthy. BUt thats my point, is he:

a) going to be healthy given his fragile nature now
b) going to be the same player he was?
2 HUGE questions to ask before throwing a contract at him if you ask me. THeyre already paying 3 forwards too much more their production, why make it 4? Its a numbers game today, and bad contracts just cripple your franchise.

Gomez + Camm + Gionta = $18 mil cap hit... Its probably the worst cap hit to points ratio in the NHL. IMagine what they could have for $18 mil with smart spending?
I think Markov's earned the right to the benefit of the doubt here...as long as his rehab goes according to schedule, there's no reason to assume he can't still at the very least be a top 4 dman.

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04-08-2011, 10:20 AM
  #34
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Wiz over Markov? Are you out of your mind???

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04-08-2011, 10:24 AM
  #35
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Can't sign Wiz, Subban has shown he will do his job for much cheaper next season and the space will be needed for Subban's next contract the following season, I don't see it working without it hurting the next Subban contract. I'm saying this based on keeping Markov around too, that's a no brainer to me.

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04-08-2011, 10:25 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I think Markov's earned the right to the benefit of the doubt here...as long as his rehab goes according to schedule, there's no reason to assume he can't still at the very least be a top 4 dman.
agreed, the only thing that scares me is the contract he wants. I mean we know what he can do on the ice and the fact that he his a top Defenceman in this league, but the bottom line is his past injuries scare the hell out of me, how much money will he want per year compared to what the Habs are ready to offer

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04-08-2011, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
I think Markov's earned the right to the benefit of the doubt here...as long as his rehab goes according to schedule, there's no reason to assume he can't still at the very least be a top 4 dman.
2 very big injuries in the past 2 seasons, and he reinjured himself in his 7th game after coming BACK from surgery. I think that a pretty big cause for concern. Apart from a serious concussion, the knees and back are the worst injuries possible for any athlete. Its constant pressure to the joints, especially in hockey, and they never properly heal until you stop playing altogether.

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04-08-2011, 10:26 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by intylerwetrust View Post
Im not questioning Markov's skill, hes arguably a top 6 Dman in the NHL when healthy. BUt thats my point, is he:

a) going to be healthy given his fragile nature now
b) going to be the same player he was?

2 HUGE questions to ask before throwing a contract at him if you ask me. THeyre already paying 3 forwards too much more their production, why make it 4? Its a numbers game today, and bad contracts just cripple your franchise.

Gomez + Camm + Gionta = $18 mil cap hit... Its probably the worst cap hit to points ratio in the NHL. IMagine what they could have for $18 mil with smart spending?
If you're not questioning Markov's skill, then I think it would be utterly foolish for management to not at least take a calculated risk with him. Markov wants to stay here, and he understands the situation too, I'm sure he won't try to have 5 years-7M. It will likely be a 1-2 years deal at about the same money he had, understanding that if he goes back to the level he was he will get more afterwards.

You know, letting him go is just as much of a risk. Sure, he might get hurt again (although I think people are exaggerating the fact that 'he's fragile by nature' quite a bit, he really just had a bad knee injury that didn't heal well the first time, let's see how he is now after a very long break + surgery. Let's not forget that his injury before his knee was a skate slicing the back of his leg, which has NOTHING to do with being fragile, it's just a freak accident). But what if he comes back to the level he was, or close to it?

With Markov at a good level (even just 80-90% of what he was would still make him a top 20D) + Subban, and some support like Gorges, maybe Wiz, Hammer, etc. Habs have the potential to have a VERY solid defense.

Let Markov go, and you won't find another one like him. Sure we have Subban now, but every solid team has 1 D that is at, around or above Subban's level (doesn't necessarily bring the same things, but as an overall player). Very few teams have 2 players of this caliber. This is what the Habs can have with Markov. Let him go, and you lose that possibility for likely a very long time. It's damn, damn hard (and costy) to get a player like that through trade, as a UFA they cost in the 7.5-8M, and usually teams do everything to keep them. #1 puck-moving D are a rarity. When you have one, even if he's coming back from an injury you AT LEAST take a year or 2 to see how he will recover before letting him walk.

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04-08-2011, 10:27 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tusk View Post
Can't sign Wiz, Subban has shown he will do his job for much cheaper next season and the space will be needed for Subban's next contract the following season, I don't see it working without it hurting the next Subban contract. I'm saying this based on keeping Markov around too, that's a no brainer to me.
Going far IMO, after next year Spacek is gone, 4 million come up I think it's enough to keep PK around as a 2nd contract. You take out Wiz not sure Subban is the same player this year, they have both been great offensively and Wiz is our freaking 2nd best scorer on this team with all the money we have invested on our forwards!

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04-08-2011, 10:27 AM
  #40
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Sign Both.

I dont know why we have to think that only one should stay, to shore up the offence...
a great defence trumps offence anyday of the week, and in Montreal there has always been tonnes of examples of that.

furthermore, like it or lump it, our team's success (and core) is from the defence out.

Bob already threw a crap load of money to forwards, and it didnt work out, as it should have.

Defensively, that's how we win, because we are more elite from the back end out, we havent been elite from the front in for 3-4 decades now. But certainly that doesnt change via UFA.

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04-08-2011, 10:27 AM
  #41
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Wiz over Markov? Are you out of your mind???
Great argument.

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04-08-2011, 10:28 AM
  #42
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Even if Markov is not brought back, Wiz is not the answer to replacing him. 20-30 responsible two-way minutes will be needed back there, Wiz doesn't bring that.

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04-08-2011, 10:31 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
Going far IMO, after next year Spacek is gone, 4 million come up I think it's enough to keep PK around as a 2nd contract. You take out Wiz not sure Subban is the same player this year, they have both been great offensively and Wiz is our freaking 2nd best scorer on this team with all the money we have invested on our forwards!
Ah yes, forgot about that. I like Wiz, would like to have him back, just being over-cautious I guess. I still put the Markov and Gorges signings over him though, and he will be foolish not to test the market this year, I just see him being signed elsewhere on July 1st at 12:01 for a lot of money.

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04-08-2011, 10:31 AM
  #44
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If I could sign both I would. If I had to gamble and I've said it many times, I take Wiz at the lower salary and let Markov walk if he isn't willing to sign 1-2 year extension in order to prove he can actually play and not keep getting injured.

Sorry but if Markov wants long term, he's going to end up on a team like FLA, cause even Detroit won't take the risk of signing him for 5 years unless it's basically a huge pay cut.

I think Markov is extended or re-signed for a small pay cut.

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04-08-2011, 10:33 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patccmoi View Post
If you're not questioning Markov's skill, then I think it would be utterly foolish for management to not at least take a calculated risk with him. Markov wants to stay here, and he understands the situation too, I'm sure he won't try to have 5 years-7M. It will likely be a 1-2 years deal at about the same money he had, understanding that if he goes back to the level he was he will get more afterwards.

You know, letting him go is just as much of a risk. Sure, he might get hurt again (although I think people are exaggerating the fact that 'he's fragile by nature' quite a bit, he really just had a bad knee injury that didn't heal well the first time, let's see how he is now after a very long break + surgery. Let's not forget that his injury before his knee was a skate slicing the back of his leg, which has NOTHING to do with being fragile, it's just a freak accident). But what if he comes back to the level he was, or close to it?

With Markov at a good level (even just 80-90% of what he was would still make him a top 20D) + Subban, and some support like Gorges, maybe Wiz, Hammer, etc. Habs have the potential to have a VERY solid defense.

Let Markov go, and you won't find another one like him. Sure we have Subban now, but every solid team has 1 D that is at, around or above Subban's level (doesn't necessarily bring the same things, but as an overall player). Very few teams have 2 players of this caliber. This is what the Habs can have with Markov. Let him go, and you lose that possibility for likely a very long time. It's damn, damn hard (and costy) to get a player like that through trade, as a UFA they cost in the 7.5-8M, and usually teams do everything to keep them. #1 puck-moving D are a rarity. When you have one, even if he's coming back from an injury you AT LEAST take a year or 2 to see how he will recover before letting him walk.
I think its a much safer risk to sign Wiz and Hamrlik for the same cap hit as Markov (assuming) and have Subban as your top 3 D + Gorges and Spacek for your top 5.

Imagine letting Wiz and Hamrlik go, you sign Markov at $6 mil, he gets injured, and youre left with Subban, Gorges, Spacek + 3 question marks.

Whats the smarter thing to do here? Again, this team is spending WAY too much on non-productive forwards as it is. Wiz is at least proving that he can produce, quite a bit too. Even if Markov DOES turn out to be great and goes elsewhere, its not as if Wiz and Subban arent decent replacements for him. THat really the whole point. So its a lot less of a risk to take him over Markov imo.

Too many people are thinking with their heart here. Thats what the Habs SHOULDNT be doing.

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04-08-2011, 10:33 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
agreed, the only thing that scares me is the contract he wants. I mean we know what he can do on the ice and the fact that he his a top Defenceman in this league, but the bottom line is his past injuries scare the hell out of me, how much money will he want per year compared to what the Habs are ready to offer
Agreed...but I think Markov and his camp realize this. It's going to be an interesting contract to negotiate.

I think both sides are going to have to make concessions, Habs will need to show faith to a player whose been loyal to the organization and Markov is going to have to be realistic in his demands based on how things have gone the last two years.

But I'm not worried about that...

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04-08-2011, 10:36 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by intylerwetrust View Post
2 very big injuries in the past 2 seasons, and he reinjured himself in his 7th game after coming BACK from surgery. I think that a pretty big cause for concern. Apart from a serious concussion, the knees and back are the worst injuries possible for any athlete. Its constant pressure to the joints, especially in hockey, and they never properly heal until you stop playing altogether.
Agreed...but that doesn't mean you walk away from all together. Both sides are going to have to make concessions, but there's no reason for the Habs to not bring back Markov next year.

I dont' think Markov is in a position to ask for a significant raise, or even a raise at all...

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04-08-2011, 10:38 AM
  #48
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Wiz will test the UFA market and sign else-where anyways.

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04-08-2011, 10:39 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by intylerwetrust View Post
I think its a much safer risk to sign Wiz and Hamrlik for the same cap hit as Markov (assuming) and have Subban as your top 3 D + Gorges and Spacek for your top 5.

Imagine letting Wiz and Hamrlik go, you sign Markov at $6 mil, he gets injured, and youre left with Subban, Gorges, Spacek + 3 question marks.

Whats the smarter thing to do here? Again, this team is spending WAY too much on non-productive forwards as it is. Wiz is at least proving that he can produce, quite a bit too. Even if Markov DOES turn out to be great and goes elsewhere, its not as if Wiz and Subban arent decent replacements for him. THat really the whole point. So its a lot less of a risk to take him over Markov imo.

Too many people are thinking with their heart here. Thats what the Habs SHOULDNT be doing.
I think paying Wiz more than 4-4.5M is as much a risk as it would be to pay Markov
6M personally.

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04-08-2011, 10:41 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
Wiz will test the UFA market and sign else-where anyways.
That's also what I think...I think he's going to price himself out of Montreal. With the numbers he's put up this year, he could easily get 5M on the open market. And personally, as much as I like the Wiz, I don't think he's a 5M dman...not with the Habs already having guys like Markov, Subban, Weber on the team.

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