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Habs should sign Wisniewski over Markov

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04-08-2011, 11:57 AM
  #101
intylerwetrust
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
But they HAD Kovalchuk, they have Tavares and they have Rick Nash.
Granted, but ATL was just poorly managed, just drafted Stefan over a Sedin too. CLB havent had enough top 3 picks like CHI, PIT, WSH, and EDM have had which makes a difference.

NYI will have Tavares, Grabner, Okposo, Neidereiter, 2012 pick, Hamonic, DeHann, not to mention great forward depth in Moulson, Bailey, and Comeau going forward.... watch them be a regular a regular playoff team in a few years.

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04-08-2011, 11:59 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by intylerwetrust View Post
Granted, but ATL was just poorly managed, just drafted Stefan over a Sedin too. CLB havent had enough top 3 picks like CHI, PIT, WSH, and EDM have had which makes a difference.

NYI will have Tavares, Grabner, Okposo, Neidereiter, 2012 pick, Hamonic, DeHann, not to mention great forward depth in Moulson, Bailey, and Comeau going forward.... watch them be a regular a regular playoff team in a few years.
If the NYI keep getting managed the way they are, half these players will be gone in a few years.

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04-08-2011, 12:00 PM
  #103
intylerwetrust
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Originally Posted by Patccmoi View Post
Honestly, as a franchise? Yes, at least over Washington (and Edm have been pathetic for longer than us, and they didn't willingly tank for a long while, they just sucked even more than we did).

Because Habs are trying to build in an intelligent way to have a top tier team that will last.

Edm or Washington might win a cup (or not, Sharks have been at the top for how long without one now...? certainly not because they lacked offensive talent), but what will they do once they have to pay everyone? Look at how Chicago and the Canes fell after their cup.

These teams and managements often don't seem to have a vision. They just bank on tanking, get some star forwards, try for a cup run and go back to sucking because their whole team sucks except for these few stars.

They might be better in the next 3-5 years (or not), but what after? I want a management trying to build a contender for years and years, with a solid draft team always getting players that can make the line-up and free up money that we don't need to spend on average veterans.

I want the Habs to try to be the Red Wings, or what the Devils were not too long ago. That's the model I want the Habs to follow. It's a harder one, not as obvious in terms of quick results, but it's so much better when done properly. I don't believe we currently have everyone in place for it, but I see the improvements going towards that. We are starting to have a lot of truly solid prospects, none of which (except maybe Subban in a few years) should make the bank explode, and we're also developping a solid supporting cast with guys like Gorges, White, Weber, maybe Pouliot or Desharnais.

Not everything might turn out perfect, but I truly believe that with a healthy Markov, the Habs can surprise many people in the next 2 years and later. What we lack in pure stars, we have in depth. And we still have Price, Subban and hopefully Markov that are likely to be true stars.
Id rather have 1 Cup every 10 years than 0 Cups in 20. But thats just me.

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04-08-2011, 12:00 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Patccmoi View Post
If the NYI keep getting managed the way they are, half these players will be gone in a few years.
Or be playing in Quebec

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04-08-2011, 12:01 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by intylerwetrust View Post
7G 23A 30PTS in 42 GP with the Habs, a pace of almost 60 PTS!

Not to mention 105 hits and 115 blocked shots (80 with Habs alone) to top it off. In his prime at 27 years old too.

Markov is obviously the more skilled Dman, but given the injury worries and not knowing if Markov will indeed be the same player he was, wouldnt it make more sense to throw a $3-4 mil per to Wiz over Markov at this point? To me its a pretty easy choice.
Im not against signing both but if I had to choose I take Markov hands down.

Markov is better in every way. Markov hopefully is a hab for life.

I have faith in Markov and his rehab abilities. He will dominate our blueline again.

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04-08-2011, 12:01 PM
  #106
intylerwetrust
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Originally Posted by Patccmoi View Post
If the NYI keep getting managed the way they are, half these players will be gone in a few years.
and theyll keep their core best like CHI, PIT, WSH have done. THeyll be just fine with Tavares leading the way.

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04-08-2011, 12:04 PM
  #107
The Goalie Mask
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Originally Posted by bjac View Post
I would choose Markov easily. Guy's like Wiz aren't that tough to find or aquire. We've seen Souray, Streit and now Wiz go through the organization over the past 8 years. Guys like Markov are rare, and very hard to aquire. He's the better of the two both offensively and defensively and regardless of the risk he is the better choice IMO.
Actually guys like Markov & Wiz are very hard to find!....offensive defensemen are a slim picking in the league especially ones that are available for trade.

Injury free obviously Markov is the better of the 2 but there's uncertainty regarding is ability to stay healthy over the next few years...

Management needs to sign both!...no if ands or buts!....If Markov gets injured Wiz is there and if he doesn't we have 3 offensive minded defensemen(Suban) which is hard to come by in this league....plus if we really have to upgrade other areas of the team...wiz gives us a fantastic trading card!...

There's no way they should let either of them walk.

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04-08-2011, 12:05 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by intylerwetrust View Post
Granted, but ATL was just poorly managed, just drafted Stefan over a Sedin too. CLB havent had enough top 3 picks like CHI, PIT, WSH, and EDM have had which makes a difference.

NYI will have Tavares, Grabner, Okposo, Neidereiter, 2012 pick, Hamonic, DeHann, not to mention great forward depth in Moulson, Bailey, and Comeau going forward.... watch them be a regular a regular playoff team in a few years.
So i guess tanking isn't the ONLY way to build a successful team...you know Pittsburgh, Chicago, Washington didn't JUST tank. They also drafted and developped well, made some shrewd trades/signings, hired the right people in their organizations, etc.

You're focusing to much on one aspect, tanking, and ignoring everything else those teams did to be successful. Thinking it's all just due to tanking is a short sighted view of things IMO

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04-08-2011, 12:07 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by The Goalie Mask View Post
Actually guys like Markov & Wiz are very hard to find!....offensive defensemen are a slim picking in the league especially ones that are available for trade.

Injury free obviously Markov is the better of the 2 but there's uncertainty regarding is ability to stay healthy over the next few years...

Management needs to sign both!...no if ands or buts!....If Markov gets injured Wiz is there and if he doesn't we have 3 offensive minded defensemen(Suban) which is hard to come by in this league....plus if we really have to upgrade other areas of the team...wiz gives us a fantastic trading card!...

There's no way they should let either of them walk.
I gotta agree here. Both are needed to be retained. Its better to start the year with 3 offensive guys than 2. If defensive guys are needed after, they are easier to acquire or call up.

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04-08-2011, 12:15 PM
  #110
Karl Pilkington
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I'm coming into this thread with total ignorance (no idea what the salary cap situation is at the end of this season) but I'd think given Markov's circumstances he can be signed for as little as 4-4.5. If they sign him 1 year it could be on the higer on, but if they get him for two they'd be taking on quite a bit of risk so that may allow PG to sign him for as little as 3.5-4 a year. I'm sure Markov personally would have no problem with that.. his agent on the other hand will probably remind him he is one of the elite defencemen in the league (not withstanding the knee injury) and try to get 5.

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04-08-2011, 12:16 PM
  #111
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Didn't Wiz have his knee redone 3 times already? Why does everyone assume Markov will never be the same when Wiz seems fine and had the same knee problem 3 times?

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04-08-2011, 12:17 PM
  #112
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Get rid of Spacek in a trade. It has to be done.

Markov, Subban, Wisniewski, and Gorges is a really strong top-4, especially for puck-moving and PP purposes. Then all you need is some meat and potatoes to fill out the bottom pairing and you have a real nice unit that has some youth and potential.

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04-08-2011, 12:20 PM
  #113
Karl Pilkington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patccmoi View Post
If the NYI keep getting managed the way they are, half these players will be gone in a few years.
Sucesss always starts at the top. The reason I'm not as about the habs over the last few years is that they've finally put a management team together that is highly professional (though not proven winners... yet ) and it transcends through the rest of the team. It's the attitude that wins championships, not necessarily the roster.

NYI will continue to be a circus as long as their owner treats the team like his toy.

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04-08-2011, 12:27 PM
  #114
The Goalie Mask
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
Didn't Wiz have his knee redone 3 times already? Why does everyone assume Markov will never be the same when Wiz seems fine and had the same knee problem 3 times?
It`s not an asumption it`s managing the risk of "what if he goes down again?"....which is smart asset management and having a contingency plan is very important.

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04-08-2011, 12:29 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by JimmyDarmody View Post
Get rid of Spacek in a trade. It has to be done.

Markov, Subban, Wisniewski, and Gorges is a really strong top-4, especially for puck-moving and PP purposes. Then all you need is some meat and potatoes to fill out the bottom pairing and you have a real nice unit that has some youth and potential.
It's amazing how Gorges getting injured suddenly turned him into this great defensmen. He is not a top 4 D, he's just a very good 5th-6th defensmen who work hard and gets the job done defensively, that's it. That doesn't mean he's not useful though.

If yopu consider the age factor, injury factor and how the Subban-Wiz combo on the pp is almost as hot as the Markov-Souray of old, I think I would also concentrate on signing Wiz before Markov too. Markov is still a priorety though, Hammer is the one who will be packing his bags imo.

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04-08-2011, 12:30 PM
  #116
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I still dream of this as a D next year...

Markov - Gorges
Gill - Subban
Hamrlik - Wisniewski

It's doable under the cap if you remove Spacek from the books (my proposal remains Spacek to Edmonton for Souray, send Souray to Hamilton).

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04-08-2011, 12:38 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
It's amazing how Gorges getting injured suddenly turned him into this great defensmen. He is not a top 4 D, he's just a very good 5th-6th defensmen who work hard and gets the job done defensively, that's it. That doesn't mean he's not useful though.

If yopu consider the age factor, injury factor and how the Subban-Wiz combo on the pp is almost as hot as the Markov-Souray of old, I think I would also concentrate on signing Wiz before Markov too. Markov is still a priorety though, Hammer is the one who will be packing his bags imo.
What do you mean suddenly? Hes been a 20 minute D-man for 3 years already, eating up a ton of PK minutes.

I think you'll just have to accept that Laraque won't be brought in to complement our 2nd pairing anytime soon.

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04-08-2011, 12:38 PM
  #118
Hank Scorpio
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Can't sign Wiz, Subban has shown he will do his job for much cheaper next season and the space will be needed for Subban's next contract the following season, I don't see it working without it hurting the next Subban contract. I'm saying this based on keeping Markov around too, that's a no brainer to me.
I don't think it's impossible to resign him and fit our other up coming free agents this season and next but it's very situational (assuming the club resigns Markov of course).

The fact of the matter is, over the next two seasons, the players due for a raise include not just Subban and Wizniewski but Price, Eller, Pacioretty, and Gorges. I imagine, should they sign Markov and Kostitsyn, it will be for around the same money they are already making. The only player I see taking less money then they are already making is Gill and Hamrlik if they resign him. The only player I think definitely will not be returning after their contract is up is Spacek at the end of next season. We also hit that point where Gomez starts getting paid at almost a reasonable amount but it remains to be seen if he will be traded and I highly doubt he will be demoted.

Regarding Wizniewski, it all comes down too the usual issues with contracts: how much and how long. Looking at the players who are due for a raise, Wizniewski is our lowest priority (in my opinion). Signing him for market value (around 4.5mil) for a decent term will not happen. With that being said, I don't see the dollar value as being a sticking point for Wizniewski but given all the bouncing around he's done lately I'm willing to bet he wants to sign somewhere where he'll be staying for a while. If he'd be willing to sign a one year deal with a 'lets see how things play out' outlook it may be doable but there's too much uncertainty going forward to sign him long term now.

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04-08-2011, 12:40 PM
  #119
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It's not Markov or Wiz for me. I'd like Wiz and Markov.

Markov - Wiz
Hamrlik / Spacek - Subban
Hamrlik / Spacek - Gorges

Weber / Mara

1st PP Unit
Markov - Wiz - Subban w/ 2 Forwards (LOL Watch the opposing team scatter)

2nd PP Unit
Hamrlik - One of Markov, Subban, or Wiz Double Shifts

1st PK Unit
Markov - Subban (It will turn into an offensive weapon instead of just killing penalties)

2nd PK Unit
Hamrlik / Spacek - Gorges

There would be some versatility in this group and offensive weapons in each d pair.

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04-08-2011, 12:43 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by The Goalie Mask View Post
Actually guys like Markov & Wiz are very hard to find!....offensive defensemen are a slim picking in the league especially ones that are available for trade.

Injury free obviously Markov is the better of the 2 but there's uncertainty regarding is ability to stay healthy over the next few years...

Management needs to sign both!...no if ands or buts!....If Markov gets injured Wiz is there and if he doesn't we have 3 offensive minded defensemen(Suban) which is hard to come by in this league....plus if we really have to upgrade other areas of the team...wiz gives us a fantastic trading card!...

There's no way they should let either of them walk.
I never said that a player like Markov was easy to find. In fact, I said the exact opposite. Reread my post.

My point was that a guy like Markov is much harder to find than a guy like Wiz. Wiz is a triggerman (albeit a very good one at that), which isn't nearly has hard to find as a puck mover like Markov. The difference between the two is that Markov makes everyone around him better and Wiz does not. We've seen Souray, Streit, MAB and now Wiz as the triggermen on the PP over the past bunch of seasons. When one has left, we've always found another. When Markov left he could not be replaced. The transition game and the PP have clearly struggled because of it. If it weren't for Subban it would have been even worse.

The original question in this thread was Markov OR Wiz. I'm all for signing both, but if comes down to a decision it's a no brainer IMO unless the doctors are screaming "NO". At this point, Markovs rehab is on track and I imagine the doctors are confident that he can make an effective return next year. If thats the case in June, then they can't walk away from Markov. It would be a terrible decision.

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04-08-2011, 12:45 PM
  #121
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I love Wiz, but the fact is that he is a rich mans version of MAB. He has a better shot and creativity and a slight upgrade in D.. I wouldn't sign MAB or Wiz before Markov.

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04-08-2011, 12:48 PM
  #122
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Get rid of Spacek, Hamrlik, Gill and you can sign both.......

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04-08-2011, 12:51 PM
  #123
JimmyDarmody
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I love Wiz, but the fact is that he is a rich mans version of MAB. He has a better shot and creativity and a slight upgrade in D.. I wouldn't sign MAB or Wiz before Markov.
So you rather spend a 2nd rounder every year finding a Wizniewski after three months of watching our PP fail?

Lost Streit. Paid a Kings Ransom for Schneider. Lost Schneider. Signed MAB in desperation. Lost MAB (rightfully so). Traded a 2nd + Cond. 5th for Wisniewski.

How about we nip that in the bud once and for all.

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04-08-2011, 12:53 PM
  #124
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Hey you messed up the title. It's supposed to say "Sign Wiz and Markov"

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04-08-2011, 12:53 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by JimmyDarmody View Post
So you rather spend a 2nd rounder every year finding a Wizniewski after three months of watching our PP fail?

Lost Streit. Paid a Kings Ransom for Schneider. Lost Schneider. Signed MAB in desperation. Lost MAB. Traded a 2nd + Cond. 5th for Wisniewski.

How about we nip that in the bud once and for all.
if Wiz want 4 millions fine but if he want 5 millions long term I'm not sure we can give him what he want

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