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04-08-2011, 11:54 AM
  #126
Andre Benoit Bawls
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
And you just can't understand what dominoes led to the fall of the franchise. Had competent decisions been made under Muckler, a signing like Kovalev was never needed. Had Kopitar or Staal been chosen over Lee, we probably aren't in the situation and names like Campoli, Kuba, are never needed.

The team had just gone to the Cup, but these decisions were already in effect...the owner said do what's necessary...but the options are limited in FA and trades when no one is killing to sign with you, and you have no prospect depth to trade for good players.

Not many guys better to handle a rebuild then Murray...3 years won't be long enough to finish it.
He took the Red Wings from a losing team to a winning team and hired Bowman for them. 2 years after they won the cup. He got Bure, Luongo, and Jokinen for the Panthers during their rebuild for basically nothing of value, and rebuilt the Ducks and got them Lupul, Smid (substancial part of the return for Pronger), Perry and Getzlaf way later than they should have gone, hired Babcock for them despite him having no NHL experience, signed Penner and Kunitz out of College, and signed Rob Neidermayer- a reason Scott signed with Anaheim... and then they won the cup 3 years after.

I'd be pretty ****ing down for any of those situations to happen to the Sens. None of those teams gave him more than 4 years, and he did ALL that.

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04-08-2011, 12:00 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by inthewings View Post
I understand the dominos just fine. I'm not going to rehash the argument, but the reality is that while Murray inherited a tough situation, we wouldn't have been as bad as we currently are had the majority of his pro transactions not blown up in his face.
It's been 4 yrs and we still get the Muckler excuses. I wonder how long it will take...4 yrs more before Murray has to own this team ?

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04-08-2011, 12:05 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by inthewings View Post
I understand the dominos just fine. I'm not going to rehash the argument, but the reality is that while Murray inherited a tough situation, we wouldn't have been as bad as we currently are had the majority of his pro transactions not blown up in his face.
That's why it's important in the first place to hire a person that isn't going to leave the next guy with no expendable assets to make good pro transactions.

If your leaning on free agency, you are playing with fire. If you are trying to trade for major help with top prospects named Brian Lee, Nick Foligno, and Brian Elliott, your in hot soup.

You make a decision like Staal over Lee, Kopitar over Lee....you aren't bothering with the Campolis, Kuba's, Picards.

The dominoes.

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04-08-2011, 12:06 PM
  #129
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t's been 4 yrs and we still get the Muckler excuses. I wonder how long it will take...4 yrs more before Murray has to own this team



I guess you're gonna find out eh?
Just goes to show you can't please everybody
Buckle up sens fans lol

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04-08-2011, 12:06 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by kyle747 View Post
It's been 4 yrs and we still get the Muckler excuses. I wonder how long it will take...4 yrs more before Murray has to own this team ?
Don't forget, the bad trades, bad signings and bad coaches are because of Melnyk. All Murray has done in the past 4 years is draft Karlsson and trade for and sign Anderson. Everything else was done by Muckler and Melnyk.

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04-08-2011, 12:09 PM
  #131
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Dave Cameron would not be a good choice at all, he was the head coach of Bingo last year and all the Bingo fans hated him. Like many coaches, he's a junior coach for life type of guy.

I understand that an owner of a team has the right to be as involved with a hockey team as they want to be, but in the end that just hurts the team, and that's what I feel Melnyk's involvement is doing. The most successful teams in the league have owners that take a hands-off approach as far as hockey operations are concerned. Melnyk is taking a very Charles Wang-like approach, I don't want the Sens becoming another New York Islanders.

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04-08-2011, 12:09 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Suiteness View Post
Don't forget, the bad trades, bad signings and bad coaches are because of Melnyk. All Murray has done in the past 4 years is draft Karlsson and trade for and sign Anderson. Everything else was done by Muckler and Melnyk.
Now you're getting it!

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04-08-2011, 12:09 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by kyle747 View Post
It's been 4 yrs and we still get the Muckler excuses. I wonder how long it will take...4 yrs more before Murray has to own this team ?
GMs leave prints on teams for many many years. Get this, if Vancouver wins the Cup this year, Burke and Nonis should get about half the credit....how long ago was that.

It's just reality, the guy managed assets poorly, this was basically inevitable...it took Spezza getting hurt for us to realize there isn't anything behind him, and there wasn't going to be any miracles putting top line players beside him until we started over. Gladly we are starting over a little and with a guy who has strengths in what's needed to do so.

You can't acquire top end talent through FA every year, sometimes it's not even there (like this year), and sometimes they choose one of the other 29 franchises. And if you've got no real young assets, no one will trade you any legitimate established top end talent in return for nothing.

The guy needs to do better on his coach hirings..much better. But if Cameron comes in...who's calling that shot?

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04-08-2011, 12:11 PM
  #134
Andre Benoit Bawls
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
That's why it's important in the first place to hire a person that isn't going to leave the next guy with no expendable assets to make good pro transactions.

If your leaning on free agency, you are playing with fire. If you are trying to trade for major help with top prospects named Brian Lee, Nick Foligno, and Brian Elliott, your in hot soup.

You make a decision like Staal over Lee, Kopitar over Lee....you aren't bothering with the Campolis, Kuba's, Picards.

The dominoes.
Not to mention losing Salo, Laich, Havlat, and Chara for nothing, drafting Klepis and having a combined 6 games played (Kaigorodov) from his 2nd pick of all his drafts combined.

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04-08-2011, 12:11 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Suiteness View Post
Don't forget, the bad trades, bad signings and bad coaches are because of Melnyk. All Murray has done in the past 4 years is draft Karlsson and trade for and sign Anderson. Everything else was done by Muckler and Melnyk.
If you're going to attempt to reason at least don't distort what people have said. No one has said this. I don't want Murray to finish this thing, I'll gladly let him start it...competent/crafty drafting for the next three years sounds fine to me. And get this, he might actually have some assets people may want if he wants to land someone that's actually really good, when other teams need to shed salary.

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04-08-2011, 12:13 PM
  #136
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Not to mention losing Salo, Laich, Havlat, and Chara for nothing, drafting Klepis and having a combined 6 games played (Kaigorodov) from his 2nd pick of all his drafts combined.
Yup...who could be expected to add legitimate talent to make this team a contender with management like that.

Hindsights 20/20 but even the Heatley deal doesn't look like a homerun anymore. Hossa didn't wanna go, and he just might have still been playing alongside Spezza.

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04-08-2011, 12:20 PM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
If you're going to attempt to reason at least don't distort what people have said. No one has said this. I don't want Murray to finish this thing, I'll gladly let him start it...competent/crafty drafting for the next three years sounds fine to me. And get this, he might actually have some assets people may want if he wants to land someone that's actually really good, when other teams need to shed salary.
If you don't trust him to finish it, why have him at all? Bryan Murray & his staff are not the only people in the NHL that are competent/crafty at drafting.

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04-08-2011, 12:33 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Suiteness View Post
Don't forget, the bad trades, bad signings and bad coaches are because of Melnyk. All Murray has done in the past 4 years is draft Karlsson and trade for and sign Anderson. Everything else was done by Muckler and Melnyk.
Nailed it.

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04-08-2011, 12:37 PM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suiteness View Post
Don't forget, the bad trades, bad signings and bad coaches are because of Melnyk. All Murray has done in the past 4 years is draft Karlsson and trade for and sign Anderson. Everything else was done by Muckler and Melnyk.
Pffftt...Heatley is usually involved in that conversation as well...Oh and Brian Lee, for not being Anze Kopitar

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04-08-2011, 12:44 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by The OttoMan View Post
He took the Red Wings from a losing team to a winning team and hired Bowman for them. 2 years after they won the cup. He got Bure, Luongo, and Jokinen for the Panthers during their rebuild for basically nothing of value, and rebuilt the Ducks and got them Lupul, Smid (substancial part of the return for Pronger), Perry and Getzlaf way later than they should have gone, hired Babcock for them despite him having no NHL experience, signed Penner and Kunitz out of College, and signed Rob Neidermayer- a reason Scott signed with Anaheim... and then they won the cup 3 years after.

I'd be pretty ****ing down for any of those situations to happen to the Sens. None of those teams gave him more than 4 years, and he did ALL that.
The Red Wings made the playoffs 3 times in the previous 4 seasons before he got there, making the Conference finals twice. Under Murray, they never made it past the second round. Contrary to popular belief, Murray wasn't brought in to lay the foundation for a competitive team, they already had a competitive team. He was brought in to take the team over the top (hence why he traded for Paul Coffey). When he failed to do that, he was replaced by someone who could take the team over the top.

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04-08-2011, 12:51 PM
  #141
Andre Benoit Bawls
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Originally Posted by Kellogs View Post
The Red Wings made the playoffs 3 times in the previous 4 seasons before he got there, making the Conference finals twice. Under Murray, they never made it past the second round. Contrary to popular belief, Murray wasn't brought in to lay the foundation for a competitive team, they already had a competitive team. He was brought in to take the team over the top (hence why he traded for Paul Coffey). When he failed to do that, he was replaced by someone who could take the team over the top.
I was referring to their record. I didn't really look too in depth because most of my post was from memory and knowledge I already have. I was really young when Murray was with Detroit so I just quickly checked out their record the year/years before and their records during his tenure.

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04-08-2011, 12:56 PM
  #142
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Didn't Yzerman write in his book that losing was a like a disease that was stuck to Murray and getting rid of him was the best thing ever? Paraphrasing here but he really wasn't flattering to the guy.

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04-08-2011, 02:34 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
GMs leave prints on teams for many many years. Get this, if Vancouver wins the Cup this year, Burke and Nonis should get about half the credit....how long ago was that.

It's just reality, the guy managed assets poorly, this was basically inevitable...it took Spezza getting hurt for us to realize there isn't anything behind him, and there wasn't going to be any miracles putting top line players beside him until we started over. Gladly we are starting over a little and with a guy who has strengths in what's needed to do so.

You can't acquire top end talent through FA every year, sometimes it's not even there (like this year), and sometimes they choose one of the other 29 franchises. And if you've got no real young assets, no one will trade you any legitimate established top end talent in return for nothing.

The guy needs to do better on his coach hirings..much better. But if Cameron comes in...who's calling that shot?
What it comes down to is results, especially after 4 years of futility. If you use some other marker then it's just opinion.

Further, I think a GM who started with Spezza, Heatley, Alfredson, Fisher, Vermette and Neil up front wasn't some damaged group.

Adding basically nothing but Kovalev and Michalek.

He also had Redden. Volchenkov, Corvo & Mezaros for 'D'. Not an elite group but Adding Richardson, Smith, Kuba & Gonchar has hardly helped.

He traded a pretty good player in Vermette for a goalie who already had injury problems and wasn't able to play very many games.

Drafting alone doesn't make for a great team, you have to be able to sign or trade pretty well.

I agree GM's leave their footprint on teams they manage, the problem is that Murray's only legacy may be some young players approaching UFA and a pretty average team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suiteness View Post
Didn't Yzerman write in his book that losing was a like a disease that was stuck to Murray and getting rid of him was the best thing ever? Paraphrasing here but he really wasn't flattering to the guy.

Yeah, but it's only Yzerman - what the hell has he ever won?

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04-08-2011, 04:15 PM
  #144
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What is with this organization and re-trying things that have previously failed?

Prepare for another one-year coach tenure.


Last edited by Gil Gunderson: 04-08-2011 at 04:25 PM.
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04-08-2011, 04:35 PM
  #145
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I honestly can't fathom how people think he is a good GM. How many non-depth players has he added to the current team who are both good and have a reasonable contract?

Karlsson
Butler
Anderson

In 4 years he has added almost nothing to the NHL team. His big moves have almost all blown up in his face. As much as people don't want to believe it, he inherited a very skilled team. Shall we look at his asset management since taking over?

What Murray had:
Heatley
Vermette
Meszaros
Volchenkov
Eaves

What Murray has now in exchange for the above assets:
Michalek
Cheechoo buyout
Kuba
Campoli
Lehner

That is truly awful asset management.

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04-08-2011, 05:01 PM
  #146
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All of the mistakes aside you have to hand it to Murray who has single handedly restored HOPE to the Ottawa fan base again. This team was terrible & everybody was ******** on them for the first half of the season. But from the trade deadline forward Murray has made some significant trades, brought up some good young players, signed some heraled NCAA free agents & restored hope again in this city that this team is again on the right track & could contend sooner rather than later.

It may not happen, but I think he has given this franchise at least a yr for fans to see what happens & IMO I bet ticket sales increase rather than decrease which I think would have happened, if some of these moves didn't take place. He has restored hope, you have to hand it to him for that at least.

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04-08-2011, 05:17 PM
  #147
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I think Kleinendorst would be better than Cameron, but NOT having Kleinendorst in Binghamton would hurt us as he was literally given Ottawa probably the most development out of its player's that the whole organization has seen in a VERY long time..

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