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Old
04-10-2011, 12:50 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
I thinks he's talking about Moulson, Purcell and Boyle all scoring away from Murray. Plus Poni and Penner becoming a shell of their former self under Murray.

Simmonds hasn't progressed as much as most thought he would. Brown has stepped up recently, but again will fall below 30 goals and he had some long scoring droughts.

Both Johnson and Doughty have not progressed under Murray.

BTW, 5-on-5 offense is one of the most important indicators of a strong team. Even Murray says it is the most important facet of the game and he has the Kings 28th in the NHL since he's been here. They are 20th over the last 2 seasons.

Having 5 players score 20 goals and still be 25th in the NHL in goals tells me that the Kings have the skill to score goals, just not the plan. The Kings need more scoring from the bottom 6 and Murray's system will not generate enough chances for them to get more goals. The defense needs to score more too, but they are almost always glued to the blue line.

Phoenix is 13 in the NHL on offense and they have 1 20 goal scorer. Something tells me that they have a better system than the Kings. Put the Kings players in their system and you will see a top 10 NHL offense and maybe even a division winner.




This is why the 5-on-5 scoring is so important. The PP is not a reliable indicator of a strong team.

If he was, he put it a funny way, regardless Ponikarovsky was put in a different role, than he was in with the Leafs, absolutely and completely different, so meh, as far as Penner, he was never brought in to be a one man show, to be the saviour, he was brought in to play with Kopitar/Williams, once they went down, you knew Penner wasn't going to be as effective.

Johnson hasn't progressed under Murray???? Hmmm....what? You might want to rethink that.

Doughty, 2 years, not really sure it's time to call his progression at a halt here, but that's just me, I generally don't mind if 2nd year D have lapses, but patience is a virtue.

5 on 5 is one aspect of scoring, never said it wasn't, but you bump the PP percentage up to 19%, that would be a top 10 powerplay, and you just added 10 more total goals, and that puts LA on par with Phoenix, Washington, Pittsburgh, etc, while that cleary doesn't put them in Anaheim or San Jose range, what they lack their, they clearly make up on defense, so Anaheim has a goal differential of plus 4, so while scoring 239 goals was clearly better than LA, it has brought them to the same point as LA, waiting until the last week to make the playoffs, with almost no hope of winning the cup...

So yes, LA needs to score more goals, but not at the expense of defensive play, figure that one out...

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04-10-2011, 12:52 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
It's a never ending cycle till you get Difference makers on the ice. Players make coaches look good. Not the other way around.
See: The 2010-11 New Jersey Devils and the 2009-11 Phoenix Coyotes

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04-10-2011, 12:52 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by OK Computer View Post
I knew you'd be a smartass with your numerous redundant comments about not knowing what goes on. But let me spell it out for you...

I dont know what happened, I can only assume the things I said because ABSOLUETLY NO EFFORT WAS MADE TO CHANGE ANYTHING ON THE PP. The same crap over and over again. The same players who SHOULDNT BE ON THE ICE being sent onto the ice over and over again. The same schemes, the same garbage. I am willing to take a chance and say if Terry Murray did what he was supposed to, would have seen something DIFFERENT at the very least ATTEMPTED on the ice.

And the Power Play seems to be a crapshoot from year to year in the NHL. If that makes mediocrity okay for you, and not holding coaches accountable fine with you as well, then so be it. But if I had to take a guess, it's the predictability of the PP that's killing it. Not only is Kompon at fault there, but our players seem to be doing the exact same things they did in the Vancouver series last year, and the league scouted that crap in the offseason; it ain't working. I'd like to see my coach take some responsibility and tell guys like DD to stop doing the same thing on every single PP. Hey, if our players are stupid or something and don't listen, that's one thing. But I'm going to ASSUME, once again, that TM did not do what he was supposed to do, because that is the most likely scenario.
LOL seriously, the wrong players on the PP, who would you have put out, Westgarth, Drewiskie and Harold?

Buddy if the main crux of your argument is that the wrong players are on the PP, I don't know what to tell you.

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04-10-2011, 12:55 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by OK Computer View Post
See: The 2010-11 New Jersey Devils and the 2009-11 Phoenix Coyotes
NJ I might give you, but until Phoenix hosts a Stanley cup or gets out of the First round under Tippet, he has done nothing there.

You guys love to Oooooze all over Trotz and his (so called system). The Guy has never had a team out of the first round.


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04-10-2011, 01:09 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
NJ I might give you, but until Phoenix hosts a Stanley cup or gets out of the First round under Tippet, he has done nothing there.

You guys love to Oooooze all over Trotz and his (so called system). The Guy has never had a team out of the first round.
Have you seen their rosters? Trotz and Tippett in LA and the Kings would battle the Sharks for the division. Bowman couldn't win a cup with Phoenix or Nashville either.

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04-10-2011, 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
Have you seen their rosters? Trotz and Tippett in LA and the Kings would battle the Sharks for the division. Bowman couldn't win a cup with Phoenix or Nashville either.
Their rosters?

Cmon....really?

Nashville has a comparative roster vs LA, you are kidding yourself if they don't think they do....

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04-10-2011, 01:10 AM
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Have you seen their rosters? Trotz and Tippett in LA and the Kings would battle the Sharks for the division. Bowman couldn't win a cup with Phoenix or Nashville either.
Trotz has coached Vokun, forsberg, rudolov, Weber, ETC. Don't act like those teams don't have talent. Hell Kieth Yandle is going to win the Norris this year.

Rinnie is the real deal, and We all know how good BryzaGLERWELRWERWER how ever you spell his damn name is.

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04-10-2011, 01:11 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
Trotz has coached Vokun, forsberg, rudolov ETc.
Not to mention

Pekka Rinne
Shea Weber
Ryan Suter

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04-10-2011, 01:16 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
Not to mention

Pekka Rinne
Shea Weber
Ryan Suter
Like I told you SJmay there is just no point. With these people Murray was done last year. He could win the Cup this year, and they would still want him fired.

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04-10-2011, 01:19 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
Funny, I figure the guy in charge of the PP should be held accountable.

I don't know if we see Kompon back or not next year.

I know we see Murray back next year...
The playoffs will be Kompon's last stand. He'll be back to teaching power skating classes next season. Murray will be given a pardon due to Kopitar's injury. If the team doesn't take a big step forward next season he'll get the axe.

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04-10-2011, 01:20 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
Like I told you SJmay there is just no point. With these people Murray was done last year. He could win the Cup this year, and they would still want him fired.
Disagree,

There is always a point,

Sydor25, and others, not just him,

They want a new coach with a new style, yet they don't understand the system that Murray has, all they see is the latest loss, or latest injury, or latest screw up etc.

They don't understand HOW he is one of the winningest coaches in the NHL, they don't understand how effective he has been at having one of the best defensive teams in the league also be one of the youngest, they don't understand how much of a feat that is.

They don't understand what the cycle is, let alone why the Kings use it, they don't understand why the Kings can't play like the Red Wings or Canucks, they just know, hey, Detroit and Vancouver win more, be like them,

They refuse to understand....and this thread, it's just a forum for them to gain some knowledge...

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04-10-2011, 01:21 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Tikkanen View Post
The playoffs will be Kompon's last stand. He'll be back to teaching power skating classes next season. Murray will be given a pardon due to Kopitar's injury. If the team doesn't take a big step forward next season he'll get the axe.
I doubt Murray even gets fired next year. All they have to do is make the second round and presto.

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04-10-2011, 01:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Tikkanen View Post
The playoffs will be Kompon's last stand. He'll be back to teaching power skating classes next season. Murray will be given a pardon due to Kopitar's injury. If the team doesn't take a big step forward next season he'll get the axe.
Completely agree about Kompon, disagree about Murray, he won't be given a pardon, he doesn't need one, back to back 44+ wins, one of the youngest team in the league, one of the best defensive teams in the league, those two feats alone ensures he comes back...

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04-10-2011, 01:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
I doubt Murray even gets fired next year. All they have to do is make the second round and presto.
If they take a step forward I'm fine with keeping him.

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04-10-2011, 01:25 AM
  #40
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If they take a step forward I'm fine with keeping him.
Now define, step forward...

What would that entail?

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04-10-2011, 04:26 AM
  #41
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This is for all the Murray Haters, DL, haters, King Haters, Westgarth haters, *****ing, whining, doom and gloom, etc all that crowd.

First,

Let's tackle the "system" issue, and see how it plays into the "personnel" issue.

The Kings play a defense first at all costs system, that's obvious to see, if it breaks down, they let up a pretty darn good scoring chance. Most teams play a defense first system, that is why you hardly if ever see true rookies play in the NHL, you have your exceptions of Skinner, Duchene, Hall, Seguin, Tavares, Stamkos etc, but most of the time they need to play in the AHL to work on their defense.

In the offensive zone, that makes offense, a bit, harder, everyone agrees creativity is good, it's needed etc, the problem is, it's easier said than done. EVERYONE in the NHL has hands, can shoot, and can skate, obviously at different degrees, but it's there or they wouldn't be there, crack on guys like Westgarth as much as you want, if the kid couldn't play, he wouldn't be there.

In the offensive zone, the Kings are relying on mistakes and turnovers, they are a counter-attack team, by forcing mistakes and turnovers, that's how they get their chances. They work the cycle up the half-wall hoping for a break down in coverage right at the top of the circle, either the D/C read it wrong and take the wrong guy and opens up the seam, very RARELY does that happen, usually a guy has to lose an edge or fall for that seam to open, more often than not, they want to draw the strong side winger down off the point man, so they can give it to him for a shot.

So F1 takes it up the halfwall, ideal world he has 4 options 1) bump it back down to the corner where F2 takes it, 2) skate it to the slot 3) bump it to the strong side D or 4) pass it to F3 who is in the slot for a shot, 2 and 4 rarely happen, again, breakdown in coverage, weakside wing is playing too hard on the point allows 4 to happen. So F1 is on the halfwall, F3 in the high slot, SSD on the point, WSD middle blue line, F2 in front of the net.

If 1 happens, then they "cycle" F2 retrieves, F3 goes to the net, F1 goes to the slot, and it happens again,

If 2 happens, hell they should have a great opportunity

If 3 happens, the SSD will have 3 options, 1) take the shot, 2) pass it to the WSD, 3) dump it in the corner

If 4 happens, again, a great opportunity.

What happens if as so many people want, the D "get involved" in the cycle, well if the WSD gets involved and goes for a back door play, if it fails, the opposition is off on a 2-1, breakaway etc, and you will RARELY see the Kings give up 2-1's like this, because you will RARELY see the WSD make a mistake like that, and you will RARELY see a cross ice feed EVER make it through, unless....a mistake is made.

If the SSD gets involved, it's easier to handle, as F1 will just switch, but it's a dangerous game to cycle at the blue line, 90 coaches in the NHL will tell you to get the damn puck deep, don't turn it over at the blue line, there is a reason for that.

Everyone wants the D to get involved, but I am hoping to tell you guys mean more on the rush than on set plays etc...

The problem with "offensive" system, is twofold, A) everyone equates offense with goals scored, and not chances generated, and B) everyone is impatient and not willing to wait for the turnover to be made or the mistake to happen, that is when you see broken plays, or giveaways etc, when the players try to force something, ala Doughty.

Now, is it in Murray to play another system, absolutely, every coach can play a different system, but why would he? The Kings don't have the speed to carry the puck into the zone, opposing teams know this, there is a reason why they clog the NZ up, and stack the blue line, they know the Kings won't be able to carry it, it's not that they know they will dump it, it's the exact opposite, they know that Simmond coming up the boards won't have the speed and hands to go around them, they are FORCING the Kings to dump it.

Which is fine, because the Kings have the SIZE to go and get it, does it happen every time, of course not, the other team isn't going to lay down and die like everyone expects ffs. But they have the size to get in there and forecheck and create a turnover and then go to work.

It's pretty simple guys, it's not complicated.

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04-10-2011, 10:36 AM
  #42
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LA needs a live chicken to sacrifice or some odd dead creature to throw on the ice before their first home game. Heck bring back the old Mark and Brian "Lucky Butt" from their cup run. Somebody has put a voodoo hex on this team and it needs to be exercised!!

The PP has stunk since Tippet left and the team's offense ability has outgrown the skills of the coach's brought for the rebuild. Not sure who is available to replace them though.

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04-10-2011, 11:55 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
Every player loses his scoring touch?

The Kings have 6 twenty goal scorers, 5 if you don't include Penner....

At least know what you are talking about...

I can't believe the ignorance.............


Again. I don't care that having 6 twenty goal scorer is a record for the Kings or the whole NHL if these guys were 30 goal scorer.
Is there any important award for having 6 twenty goal scorer ????
I could have 10 twenty goal scorer and would complain if these guys were 30 goal scorer before meeting Murray.


Would you people please wake up and judge the player and coaches by potential and not by the job saving phrasis some guys are throwing around.

Would i be happy with 20% PP and 4th best of the league ?????
No i clearly wouldn't. We have deadly PP weopens and our PP should be close to 30%
Everything else is dissapointment doesn't matter what 20% should mean for the Kings record.

Do we have 46 wins ???? Yes we do. But in Playoff we don't have a need for shootout specialist players and goalies. So pull 10 wins off this stat.
Is 36 wins leading us somewhere ???? No it isn't and the Playoff will proof that.

The only stat i'm interested in is we have the fewest goal scoring numbers of all playoff temas and we are in mid range if it comes to goals against.


But what do i know, this game is going on for 3 years now.
The people are following simple numbers on a paper sheet and believe in someone who isn't able to lead us to the holy land.
I really stopped to care about this staff but i'm really hurt when i have to see the damage that is done to the players and their future careers.

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04-10-2011, 12:07 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
This is for all the Murray Haters, DL, haters, King Haters, Westgarth haters, *****ing, whining, doom and gloom, etc all that crowd.

First,

Let's tackle the "system" issue, and see how it plays into the "personnel" issue.

The Kings play a defense first at all costs system, that's obvious to see, if it breaks down, they let up a pretty darn good scoring chance. Most teams play a defense first system, that is why you hardly if ever see true rookies play in the NHL, you have your exceptions of Skinner, Duchene, Hall, Seguin, Tavares, Stamkos etc, but most of the time they need to play in the AHL to work on their defense.

In the offensive zone, that makes offense, a bit, harder, everyone agrees creativity is good, it's needed etc, the problem is, it's easier said than done. EVERYONE in the NHL has hands, can shoot, and can skate, obviously at different degrees, but it's there or they wouldn't be there, crack on guys like Westgarth as much as you want, if the kid couldn't play, he wouldn't be there.

In the offensive zone, the Kings are relying on mistakes and turnovers, they are a counter-attack team, by forcing mistakes and turnovers, that's how they get their chances. They work the cycle up the half-wall hoping for a break down in coverage right at the top of the circle, either the D/C read it wrong and take the wrong guy and opens up the seam, very RARELY does that happen, usually a guy has to lose an edge or fall for that seam to open, more often than not, they want to draw the strong side winger down off the point man, so they can give it to him for a shot.

So F1 takes it up the halfwall, ideal world he has 4 options 1) bump it back down to the corner where F2 takes it, 2) skate it to the slot 3) bump it to the strong side D or 4) pass it to F3 who is in the slot for a shot, 2 and 4 rarely happen, again, breakdown in coverage, weakside wing is playing too hard on the point allows 4 to happen. So F1 is on the halfwall, F3 in the high slot, SSD on the point, WSD middle blue line, F2 in front of the net.

If 1 happens, then they "cycle" F2 retrieves, F3 goes to the net, F1 goes to the slot, and it happens again,

If 2 happens, hell they should have a great opportunity

If 3 happens, the SSD will have 3 options, 1) take the shot, 2) pass it to the WSD, 3) dump it in the corner

If 4 happens, again, a great opportunity.

What happens if as so many people want, the D "get involved" in the cycle, well if the WSD gets involved and goes for a back door play, if it fails, the opposition is off on a 2-1, breakaway etc, and you will RARELY see the Kings give up 2-1's like this, because you will RARELY see the WSD make a mistake like that, and you will RARELY see a cross ice feed EVER make it through, unless....a mistake is made.

If the SSD gets involved, it's easier to handle, as F1 will just switch, but it's a dangerous game to cycle at the blue line, 90 coaches in the NHL will tell you to get the damn puck deep, don't turn it over at the blue line, there is a reason for that.

Everyone wants the D to get involved, but I am hoping to tell you guys mean more on the rush than on set plays etc...

The problem with "offensive" system, is twofold, A) everyone equates offense with goals scored, and not chances generated, and B) everyone is impatient and not willing to wait for the turnover to be made or the mistake to happen, that is when you see broken plays, or giveaways etc, when the players try to force something, ala Doughty.

Now, is it in Murray to play another system, absolutely, every coach can play a different system, but why would he? The Kings don't have the speed to carry the puck into the zone, opposing teams know this, there is a reason why they clog the NZ up, and stack the blue line, they know the Kings won't be able to carry it, it's not that they know they will dump it, it's the exact opposite, they know that Simmond coming up the boards won't have the speed and hands to go around them, they are FORCING the Kings to dump it.

Which is fine, because the Kings have the SIZE to go and get it, does it happen every time, of course not, the other team isn't going to lay down and die like everyone expects ffs. But they have the size to get in there and forecheck and create a turnover and then go to work.

It's pretty simple guys, it's not complicated.
You have some very good and acurate points.
You described exactly what we are doing but you didn't give a solution.
Just watch let's say as an example Nashville or Detroit.

They circumvent all what you said by entering the o-zone through the middle.
That forces the forchecker and the defender from one side to leave their position.

Suddenly you have a new game. The opponent is acting now and the defense has to react.
Entering the zone gives you the option to go straight to the goal what the defense tries to avoid.
That makes at least one winger available for a pass to the side what leads into a complete lateral movement on the opponent team.
Exactly this movement creates the open slot for the other winger to sneak into the back of the defender and if the center falls back a little bit you create a triangle without having the defense involved.

Just make this experiment in your head.
A) our system where you enters the o-zone at the board and have just one way
from the board towards the goal.

B) you enter the middle of the o-zone and have at least 3 options to do that.

What system would you prefer and what would you think about a professional coach who is usiong option A

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04-10-2011, 12:37 PM
  #45
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Now define, step forward...

What would that entail?
Wouldn't pushing the Canucks to 6-7 games be a step forward? Almost same rosters as last year and the Kings would be without Kopitar. So would the same result as last year not be considered a step forward at that point?

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04-10-2011, 01:08 PM
  #46
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Like I told you SJmay there is just no point. With these people Murray was done last year. He could win the Cup this year, and they would still want him fired.
I think it's one of the problems with the internet. The moment something becomes "FACT!" then nothing can ever change it. When TM was the coach of the Flyers they had a perennial top-5 offense. ... hmm... I wonder if it was because they had more offensive talent? According to the internet all he wants is dump and chase yet he is constantly talking about puck control and skating it into the zone.... constantly!

But.. no... according to the internet he just does everything he can to destroy offense. Just a stupid meme.

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04-10-2011, 01:51 PM
  #47
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I think it's one of the problems with the internet. The moment something becomes "FACT!" then nothing can ever change it. When TM was the coach of the Flyers they had a perennial top-5 offense. ... hmm... I wonder if it was because they had more offensive talent? According to the internet all he wants is dump and chase yet he is constantly talking about puck control and skating it into the zone.... constantly!

But.. no... according to the internet he just does everything he can to destroy offense. Just a stupid meme.
Completely different era. Mid-90's versus now? Really? Murray was out of coaching for eight years. The game changed a lot while he was out.

Show me all the quotes about entering the zone with possession. All I read is about puck management, shot mentality, puck recovery and playing heavy. Now he's blaming the players for trying to pick corners, which most agree with, but he says it is because they are young. How about coaching?

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04-10-2011, 02:05 PM
  #48
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Fire Kompon. That would take care of 50% of the problem immediately. The other 50%? Hire a competent offensive coordinator that can complement Murray and teach the kids a contemporary offensive system.

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04-10-2011, 03:15 PM
  #49
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Seems like kind of a trap thread. The guy asks to fix what ails the kings then dismantles any opinion you come up with and tells you you're wrong. I was asked to define taking a step forward? WOW!

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04-10-2011, 03:38 PM
  #50
JT Dutch*
Cult of Personality
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: B.C.
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,548
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... Fixing what ails the Kings would be pretty simple; just get Kopitar and Williams back in the lineup somehow and go back to alternating the goalies. That seemed to be the structure when the Kings were playing their most effective hockey.

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