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Old
04-10-2011, 09:30 PM
  #51
Kritter471
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A cheap Woywitka as the designated healthy scratch wouldn't kill me (though Fistric keeps showing why he deserves some press box time). He's not good, but he's not as bad as people make him out to be. On the same token, I wouldn't mind Skrastins back at a cheap price to be a veteran fill-in/somewhat regular scratch.

But if they get the money, after the Richards issue is addressed, clearly defense is the biggest area of concern. They've got four solid guys right now in Grossman, Robidas, Goligoski and Daley, assuming those guys can be slotted into roles suitable for them. They are desperately missing a reliable defensive defenseman who can be counted upon to play against the other team's top players.

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04-10-2011, 09:35 PM
  #52
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Kritter, don't take this as an attacking question because that's not how I intend for it to come across...do you think Woywitka is better than Fistric? Yes or no question.

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04-10-2011, 09:58 PM
  #53
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I don't hate Woywitka as a person he seems like a good guy, just like Barch, but for the love of god don't come back. They both had good games this year but it's not enough.

I wouldn't mind either as the clear 7th/8th defensemen or semi-regular goon but we know that won't happen.

Sign a good defensemen like Pitkanen, sign another top 6 winger just incase Vincour or Glennie aren't ready to step up next year, and please get rid of Crawford.

Richards I don't know anymore, he wants to stay but we won't get ownership in 2 months probably, ****ing shame that might have been his last game as a Dallas Star today.

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Old
04-10-2011, 10:09 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
Kritter, don't take this as an attacking question because that's not how I intend for it to come across...do you think Woywitka is better than Fistric? Yes or no question.
No.

But Fistric has by far more potential, so I would concentrate more on fixing him. Woywitka is what he is - a spare who can fill in as a 6th if needed but gets overexposed doing anything else. Fistric could be a very good shut down 3/4 if he just stopped being so stupid. Because of that, I think they should put a lot more energy into making him a better player for the long-term, and if that includes scratching him some nights where he's more talented than someone else, so be it.

I like Fistric a lot when he's not losing track of how the play is developing see (see: Minny goals 2 and 4 and to a lesser extend the PP goal against). And I think he can be taught, unlike a certain former Dallas defenseman who used to get caught in my sights.

ETA: Fistric definitely frustrates me more than Woywitka, though, because I think Fistric can be so much better with a little common sense getting through that giant head of his. As long as this team is cheap enough to have to play Woywitka, and that's the only reason I'd assume he'd be re-signed as the 7th, then flawed guys like that are going to be a fact of life as a budget team.

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04-10-2011, 10:58 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
I agree. Didn't we all think he sucked for 95% of the season though? And there he was getting 18-20 mins/gm down the stretch. The dude AVERAGED 18 mins/gm this year. Let that sink in. He played almost 1/3rd of the game in 63 of 82 games this year.
Which is why I think he'll get another contract. This is the same thing we went through with Barch last year. A guy who should have spent the majority of the season as a healthy scratch, but instead was put into the line-up and also received more ice time than he should have. Barch got a new contract and I think Woywitka will get one as well.

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04-10-2011, 11:08 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by secretsquirrel View Post
Which is why I think he'll get another contract. This is the same thing we went through with Barch last year. A guy who should have spent the majority of the season as a healthy scratch, but instead was put into the line-up and also received more ice time than he should have. Barch got a new contract and I think Woywitka will get one as well.
I absolutely agree. I've joked about it before but I honestly believe they keep Woywitka on board...in fact I think he will get a raise and a multiple year deal. maybe 2 years at 1.5 per.

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Old
04-10-2011, 11:09 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
No.

But Fistric has by far more potential, so I would concentrate more on fixing him. Woywitka is what he is - a spare who can fill in as a 6th if needed but gets overexposed doing anything else. Fistric could be a very good shut down 3/4 if he just stopped being so stupid. Because of that, I think they should put a lot more energy into making him a better player for the long-term, and if that includes scratching him some nights where he's more talented than someone else, so be it.

I like Fistric a lot when he's not losing track of how the play is developing see (see: Minny goals 2 and 4 and to a lesser extend the PP goal against). And I think he can be taught, unlike a certain former Dallas defenseman who used to get caught in my sights.

ETA: Fistric definitely frustrates me more than Woywitka, though, because I think Fistric can be so much better with a little common sense getting through that giant head of his. As long as this team is cheap enough to have to play Woywitka, and that's the only reason I'd assume he'd be re-signed as the 7th, then flawed guys like that are going to be a fact of life as a budget team.
Fair enough. That's more or less where I thought you stood on things and for the most part I agree with you. Where I disagree is with bringing Woywitka back - in any capacity - eeeespecially if Crawford is retained. Based on Crawford's deployment of Woywitka this season I have no faith that he will shield him from seeing significant time. Even the rationale that got him into his first game this season was complete and utter b.s., but that is a tangent reserved for the Fire Crawford thread.

I know there will be "a" Woywitka, a cheap 6-8 type defenseman, I just want no part of this Woywitka. I want the devil we don't know rather than the devil we know at this point. Quite honestly, Lukowich was far more deserving of the role Woywitka played this season.

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04-10-2011, 11:46 PM
  #58
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Offseason gameplan:

Let Richards walk. With the amount of money he's asking for, it would be in Dallas' best interest to spend the saved money on other areas that really need improvement. Also, I wouldn't mind seeing Mike Ribeiro and Jamie Benn centering the top two lines. Depending on how Benn handles the center position on a full time basis could determine if he is cut out to be this team's #1 centerman in the future.

Get rid of Woywitka. I can only hope that JN ignores Crawford's plea to resign Woywitka.

Get rid of Sutherby. You guess why.

Skrastins? It depends how much he wantas and if he wants to stay in Dallas or go to an actual contender.

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Old
04-10-2011, 11:47 PM
  #59
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Eh, I guess I'm just not that caught up in the 7th defenseman when the pressing need is for a real shut-down, top-pairing guy. Like fourth-liners, 7th defensemen are often a lot of necessary evil, especially if this team is still on a budget. Evil I know vs. evil I don't doesn't matter all that much to me.

On the bright side for you, the pure numbers game says Woywitka's gone if they think Larsen is at all ready. They've got five under contract with Skrastins and Woywitka the UFAs. Assuming they do somehow go out and upgrade one of the empty positions through whatever means, that means only one spot left if they don't trade a defenseman. If Larsen is ready, he'll be that last guy and leaving probably Daley, Fistric and him to battle to stay out of the scratch spot.

If they want Larsen to spend another year drinking protein shakes (which is his biggest problem at the moment - he just needs more mass), then someone else will have to come into play. If it has to be one of the two UFAs from this year, I'd prefer Skrastins on a one-year deal, especially if he can get regular games off as a scratch since he seems to wear down. But like I said, I'm not too caught up in that final guy.

My biggest personal wish is for a new backup goalie, but Raycroft didn't play well enough to become trade bait, and with him on a one-way next year, he ain't going anywhere unless the ownership gets solved (which would probably help solve a lot of other personnel problems).

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04-11-2011, 12:17 AM
  #60
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This run n' gun system we try and run just isn't working. Look at a team like the Phoenix Coyotes. They don't have the offensive talent we do, but Tippet's system worked for us and it's working for them. We don't have the payroll or D core to pull that type of system off and it's been made abundantly clear these last 2 years. Getting rid of Tippet may go down as one of the biggest mistakes in franchise history. We need more structure to our game.

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Old
04-11-2011, 12:26 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
Eh, I guess I'm just not that caught up in the 7th defenseman when the pressing need is for a real shut-down, top-pairing guy. Like fourth-liners, 7th defensemen are often a lot of necessary evil, especially if this team is still on a budget. Evil I know vs. evil I don't doesn't matter all that much to me.

On the bright side for you, the pure numbers game says Woywitka's gone if they think Larsen is at all ready. They've got five under contract with Skrastins and Woywitka the UFAs. Assuming they do somehow go out and upgrade one of the empty positions through whatever means, that means only one spot left if they don't trade a defenseman. If Larsen is ready, he'll be that last guy and leaving probably Daley, Fistric and him to battle to stay out of the scratch spot.

If they want Larsen to spend another year drinking protein shakes (which is his biggest problem at the moment - he just needs more mass), then someone else will have to come into play. If it has to be one of the two UFAs from this year, I'd prefer Skrastins on a one-year deal, especially if he can get regular games off as a scratch since he seems to wear down. But like I said, I'm not too caught up in that final guy.

My biggest personal wish is for a new backup goalie, but Raycroft didn't play well enough to become trade bait, and with him on a one-way next year, he ain't going anywhere unless the ownership gets solved (which would probably help solve a lot of other personnel problems).
New backup goalie? Why? I think raycroft has been as good as a backup goalie as we were looking for. He was solid early on, yea he didn't end off great, but injuries and the team not playing well in front of played a part in that. The only real bad game he had was the Calgary game as far I can remember. I am happy that raycroft is going to comeback next year, and hopefully get more playing time then Crawford gave him.

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04-11-2011, 12:39 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
Except we did it a lot better under Tippett. That guy can flat out coach.
And it was also under Tippett that the team lost a game after being up by four goals. Just sayin.

Tippett is definitely better than Crawford, but there have been a few things that happened under both regimes (ie: Barch and going into a defensive shell).

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Old
04-11-2011, 12:46 AM
  #63
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Damn shame you guys didn't win. I was really hoping for all pacific teams to make it. Next year!

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04-11-2011, 07:54 AM
  #64
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I'm sure I could find this elsewhere, but which defense-men are upcoming UFAs next season?

I think everyone has nailed it as far as what needs to happen: get rid of Woywitka, Langenbrunner, Sutherby, Williams, and potentially Skrastins. We have to get at least one more elite (or close to elite) defense-man going into next season.

I hope we keep Richards, as when he isn't recovering from concussions he is one of the best players in the league. Plus, he really makes Eriksson go, so I would hate to see us lose that duo's firepower.

On Crawford, I'd be fine if he got the axe, but I just don't see that happening so I just hope we give him enough good players that he can't make those idiotic mistakes like he did late in the season.

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04-11-2011, 09:40 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by starshockeyfan56 View Post
I'm sure I could find this elsewhere, but which defense-men are upcoming UFAs next season?

I think everyone has nailed it as far as what needs to happen: get rid of Woywitka, Langenbrunner, Sutherby, Williams, and potentially Skrastins. We have to get at least one more elite (or close to elite) defense-man going into next season.

I hope we keep Richards, as when he isn't recovering from concussions he is one of the best players in the league. Plus, he really makes Eriksson go, so I would hate to see us lose that duo's firepower.

On Crawford, I'd be fine if he got the axe, but I just don't see that happening so I just hope we give him enough good players that he can't make those idiotic mistakes like he did late in the season.
Personally, I would try and keep Williams. I want to see what he can do with a full season as a Star.

Maybe thats just me...

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04-11-2011, 09:57 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
A cheap Woywitka as the designated healthy scratch wouldn't kill me (though Fistric keeps showing why he deserves some press box time). He's not good, but he's not as bad as people make him out to be. On the same token, I wouldn't mind Skrastins back at a cheap price to be a veteran fill-in/somewhat regular scratch.
Woywitka is quite a bit worse than people make him out to be. Both of his goals were blind luck where he scored off a dump in, and all of his 12 assists were the definition of secondary. It's safe to say his offensive contribution is zero. I'm not saying he's bad offensively, I'm saying he's nothing offensively. He doesn't even draw coverage, he's that bad. Grossman is Lidstrom in comparison, because at least he has a decent shot.

That's fine I guess. He is a defenseman after all, right? Except he sucks at defense too. Not quite as badly. I'll admit he's made some defensive plays in his time, but an offensive zero like him has to be perfect defensively in order to make up for his horrible offensive play. The worst part of it all, is Woywitka gets beaten regularly by depth players. We all ride Robidas occasionally for getting undressed by star players, but Woywitka loses puck battles and one on ones to just about any player in the league. It's not like he's playing challenging minutes or anything, yet he still gets scored on all the damn time.

Crawford loves Woywitka because he makes good dump ins. That's it. Woywitka makes it easier for Crawford to change lines as frequently as he likes to.

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04-11-2011, 11:11 AM
  #67
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Despite this being the 3rd time they've missed the playoffs, this is the first time I honestly feel like things will be worse before they get better. After the 1st miss, I believed the injuries just killed them, and they should bounce back the next year. After the 2nd miss, I thought there was some hope of Lehtonen playing well based on his play down the stretch. Anyone had to be better than Turco, and Joe already made it clear he was gone. Plus I thought young players would be able to step up and take a bigger role. Hell, I even thought/hoped Niskanen might get his **** together.

This time though, it's hard to find something to be optimistic about. I think the only logical thought at this moment is Brad Richards is gone. I was more or less convinced he was gone, but Razor saying this was probably his last game just sealed it for me. Razor doesn't say things like that jokingly, and they are made with more insight on the situation than most. Richards loss is great for Benn. Only in the sense that he's face with an amazing opportunity. He actually has to perform though, but I still have faith that he can.

Brad Richards wasn't perfect, but you're losing an elite player. This isn't a small loss. I wish he maybe fought a little harder at times or was better in his own zone, but it's hard not to look fondly on his time in Dallas. It's terrible that he's gone, and our compensation for losing him is likely just regaining the 3rd (and hopefully nothing more – do NOT re-sign him at the cost of a 2nd) Dallas will lose for Langenbrunner.

The only small victory is the lenders can't decimate the team anymore. The league will not allow them to cut spending. GM Joe will be forced to spend at least $7 to $8 million in cap space. They'll have that money to fill 3 or 4 forward roles and 2 on defense. The chances of them signing an impact player with that money is highly unlikely.

So, what happens?

Unless he's just god awful, you've got to go with Glennie in the lineup I think. You're not going to get better potential for goals for less money. It's perfect for the lenders, and I think that's going to be a big influence. They'll only have to pay him $900K, but his cap hit will be $1.65 million. Is this the right move? Well, I think in the long run yes. Bad teams play young players earlier. He'll have to develop in the NHL, which isn't always ideal, and it can even sometimes fail. I think this will happen though

I think they'll overpay two Bottom 6 forwards (a la Petersen and Barch last year) to help reach the Cap Floor. That makes me a little sick even thinking about that. Anyway, I imagine this will likely be familiar players. IMO, I think you give two-way contracts to Brandon Segal (if he's up for it), Aaron Gagnon, Colton Sceviour, and Ray Sawada. Each of them have a $750K NHL hit, and you figure out how to make the AHL money work for them. Those 4 battle it out for the final 2 roster spots. Wathier's minimal cap hit keeps him out of the running likely since Dallas has a serious need to reach the floor. He's probably a top option though for injury re-call.

That's $3.15 million in cap hits. By my best guess, Dallas would have $4,578,333 in cap hits to sign/trade for 2 defenders. I think looking at older defenders with 1 year remaining on their contract would be wise. I get the feeling though, like several others, Jeff Woywitka will return to the Stars. However, logically, GM Joe should give him no more than a 1 year deal. I don't even care if it's $1 or $1.5 million on a single year. I think it's inevitable he's back, and I guess there's no harm in forcing him and Fistric to earn minutes and games.

Is any of this ideal? Hell no, but this seems, at least IMO, like the path in the Stars future. This adds up to another huge unknown. Can Benn hold up as a true top line center? Will Glennie bomb? How the hell can that defense hold up? As good a season Lehtonen had, can he handle back to back years of heavy workloads? There are a ton of questions, and so many places that could crumble causing a terrible, terrible season next year. I truly hope the lenders eat heavy, heavy losses.

Morrow-Ribeiro-Glennie
Eriksson-Benn-Vincour
Ott-Wandell-Burish
Segal/Gagnon-Petersen-Sceviour/Sawada
Barch

Grossman-Robidas
Older Vet-Goligoski
Woywitka-Daley
Fistric

Lehtonen
Raycroft


Last edited by BigG44: 04-11-2011 at 11:16 AM.
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Old
04-11-2011, 11:14 AM
  #68
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Here's some interesting thoughts.

To start out, Joe will be at the Texas games again this year and he sits really close to me so I'll make it clear that people don't like Woywitka or Crawford ( yes that means I'll yell it across the concourse) Hopefully he'll see the passion in that. Probably not, worth a shot though.

Everybody seems to be under this impression that Dallas is a run-and-gun offense with Crawford coaching and the simple truth is that it's not. RAG is a very clear way of playing hockey that entails no mercy on the other team. Things like trying to hold a 1 or 2 goal lead aren't RAG hockey, and if you think they are then you're watching the wrong sport. RAG hockey is 3 men in on the forecheck, and defenseman pinching all the time. It also means crowding the front of the net on a PP and letting Dmen take shots through screens and deflections all game long.

This time in the NHL is not made for defense at all, and it even carries over into the AHL, teams that try to hold leads instead of making them bigger don't win. You either play a full trap system or you don't, no other option. Stretching the D out by placing forwards high in the neutral zone on a break out creating a faster pace is what wins. Crawford doesn't have this in place at all. We also have zero transition to our game, think back and honestly tell me the last time we were able to recover the puck in the neutral zone and regroup without throwing it back to the D in our own zone. You can't because that's the only way they get out of situations.

/endrant

Next thought!

Mike Ribeiro is a number 1 center in this league.

Get rid of Richards and let Wandell center the second line with Ott on his wing. You'll have a line that's able to slow play down anywhere on the ice (since Ribs is a wizard) Then you'll have a very fast RAG style line with Wandell centering a guy like Ott and Benn. Gagnon or Wathier can easily center a 3rd line, and Rallo is a right shot right wing who isn't afraid to get dirty.

Without Richards this team is severely under the cap and has 7.8 million extra to spend on D and wingers. Don't let Richards magic Conn Smythe performance from years ago cloud up your thoughts on the team moving forward. Do you guys honestly want somebody who has to think about whether or not he wants to play here? You either want to be apart of the team here or you don't, and if you don't that massive amount of money can easily go towards a great defender and winger.

Bottom line...

Deuce Richards
Deuce Woywitka
Hello AHL competent backup.

Deuce Crawford
Hello Gully.

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Old
04-11-2011, 11:25 AM
  #69
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I get the feeling Fistric gets traded before next season starts, and I hope they don't re-up Woywitka, I think they would have done that by now (wishful rationalizing). I liked Skrastins this year but the guy is getting a bit old and the last thing we need is a declining d-man on this crap team.

The offense will most certainly suffer, but the distribution of minutes will likely mean that a few guys will have more output, though we sure as hell aren't going to magically make up for the points Richards could give us, or possibly make up for the points decline Eriksson will probably have without that great chemistry to work with.

IMO, if we even have a shot in hell of having a decent season next year, we're going to have to make some upgrades on defense and make sure everyone we bring in is committed to playing some stable, solid D. We aren't going to be able to improve the offense from this year, but the defense would be easy to improve at this point because it's so god-awful.

IF we don't get a new owner next year, I hope we maintain our likely mediocre roster, get ourselves a top 10 draft pick, and buy our way into the playoffs the year after. I wouldn't be nervous if this team had the money to spend to the cap, but we don't, and it's hard not to be nervous when we're more than likely going to miss the playoffs for the 4th year in a row.

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04-11-2011, 01:49 PM
  #70
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...

Unless he's just god awful, you've got to go with Glennie in the lineup I think. You're not going to get better potential for goals for less money. It's perfect for the lenders, and I think that's going to be a big influence. They'll only have to pay him $900K, but his cap hit will be $1.65 million. Is this the right move? Well, I think in the long run yes. Bad teams play young players earlier. He'll have to develop in the NHL, which isn't always ideal, and it can even sometimes fail. I think this will happen though
I was nodding along with you until this point. The fact that Glennie's caphit outstrips his salary and will help the lenders get to the floor just isn't a good enough reason to throw him to the wolves. He's the classic slow developer, a bit like Bobby Ryan. You want to err on the side of too much AHL time with him. No one doubts his skill level. But he's got to learn to play disciplined, structured hockey. I mean, why do you think they had him follow around Lehtinen during that training camp? This has always been the issue. I'd hate to see one of our few chances at another impact player squandered because the current team is bad and we had no one else to play in a scoring role. And frankly there's also the concern of just keeping him away from the losing culture this team has developed until the point when his play demands a spot in the NHL.

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04-11-2011, 02:10 PM
  #71
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Wandell is a terrible option as a second-line center. He does not pass well enough to open the game up for others. When he creates offense, it's almost invariably off of solo rushes to the net. That has value, but it's simply not good enough for a second-line guy. Put Benn there instead and keep Ott with Morrow and Ribeiro (they've clicked in the past as well as at the end of this season). Put Eriksson and a LW TBD with Benn.

All that assumes you lose Richards, obviously. I don't think that's as much of a given as some people.

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04-11-2011, 02:16 PM
  #72
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Ott should be nowhere near a scoring line. I think we've firmly established that.

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04-11-2011, 02:37 PM
  #73
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Ott moving up to the Morrow/Ribeiro line was the turning point that got the other two scoring again late in the year. Like him or not, he's produced with those two, and they have produced with him on Ribeiro's RW.

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04-11-2011, 02:38 PM
  #74
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None of that stuff is ideal, but it's what gets you through a season until new owners come.

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04-11-2011, 02:38 PM
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Yeah I don't want Glennie on the ice unless he tears it up in training camp and even then I'd rather they send him down. Right now it seems fairly obvious that this team is going to sit within 500k of the cap floor. They'll have to trade for a guy with a cap hit to make that. Hopefully they'll be able to buy cheap otherwise this franchise really will have nothing. Any interest in asking Lindgren, the Finnish center who led the Finnish Elite league in scoring to come back over? He makes the big club or he returns to Finland kind of deal.

It's also time to encourage Reilly Smith, Alex Chaisson, Curtis MacKenzie and Nico Sachetti to leave college. They won't start in Dallas but the sooner they start playing professionally the better off this club will be.

The defense must be addressed. Besides Goligoski and Grossman the rest need to go in either short term upgrades (vets with bigger salaries but shorter term) or long term "projects" kids but they can't trot out Daley, Robidas, Witka, Skrastins, and Fistric again and again hoping this next season they'll be better.

Completely clean house when the new owner arrives. Part of the problem is the players themselves. Part of it is Crawford and part of it absolutely lies at Niewendyk's feet. Anaheim doesn't make the playoffs if Dallas isn't stupid enough to pass on Cam Fowler. How's that
Campbell pick working out so far?

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