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Old
04-10-2011, 03:45 PM
  #51
The Tikkanen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... Fixing what ails the Kings would be pretty simple; just get Kopitar and Williams back in the lineup somehow and go back to alternating the goalies. That seemed to be the structure when the Kings were playing their most effective hockey.
Define getting Williams and Kopitar back in the lineup!

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04-10-2011, 03:51 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Tikkanen View Post
Define getting Williams and Kopitar back in the lineup!
... Uh, I suppose wait until next season starts? The title of the thread is "fix what ails the Kings." Right now, what's ailing them is that their best player is out, one of their 20-goal scorers is out, and their goalies aren't being used correctly. That's pretty much it. The power play, meh - it's just been a down season for the Kings on the PP. Their struggles with the man advantage seem to arise from a lack of confidence and some ill-fated split second decisions, rather than a serious flaw in the structure or tactics. I'm not saying they couldn't stand to use different players on the PP, but the strategy itself is sound; it's just not being executed properly.

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04-10-2011, 04:32 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Can't fix anything until July 1. The lack of finish, speed and passing is a glaring weakness. They are well covered in net and on defense, but offensively, they are lacking talent. They need more creativity, and this group of players isn't going to improve in that area. Look at how many veteran forwards the Kings have on the roster. Aside from bringing in fresh faces like Schenn or Loktionov, the Kings need to bring in a speedy winger who can generate offense.
Watching this team play Vancoiuver and San Jose recently, I came to the conclusion that we lack the horses to be an elite team, and that is before we even talk about "the Systemic problem." Its a dead point, and will bring out derision and scorn from several when I mention it, but we had one of those speedy wingers who could score, but someone in management didnt like the guy. And NO, I don't think Oscar Moller is going to be his replacement.

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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
I thinks he's talking about Moulson, Purcell and Boyle all scoring away from Murray. Plus Poni and Penner becoming a shell of their former self under Murray.
Yeah, and Frolov was supposed to be a 40 goal scorer in this "system."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
Simmonds hasn't progressed as much as most thought he would. Brown has stepped up recently, but again will fall below 30 goals and he had some long scoring droughts.

Both Johnson and Doughty have not progressed under Murray.
Not sure who I'm more dissapointed in this season: Simmer-less or Doubted. Both of these players had off-seasons, and between the pirouettes at the blue-line leading to pucks and rushes going the other way or the inability to catch a pass on the rush, they should be split apart as roommates and given veterans as mentors

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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
BTW, 5-on-5 offense is one of the most important indicators of a strong team. Even Murray says it is the most important facet of the game and he has the Kings 28th in the NHL since he's been here. They are 20th over the last 2 seasons.

Having 5 players score 20 goals and still be 25th in the NHL in goals tells me that the Kings have the skill to score goals, just not the plan. The Kings need more scoring from the bottom 6 and Murray's system will not generate enough chances for them to get more goals. The defense needs to score more too, but they are almost always glued to the blue line.

Phoenix is 13 in the NHL on offense and they have 1 20 goal scorer. Something tells me that they have a better system than the Kings. Put the Kings players in their system and you will see a top 10 NHL offense and maybe even a division winner.


This is why the 5-on-5 scoring is so important. The PP is not a reliable indicator of a strong team.
Nah scoring isnt important, particualrly not 5 on 5. We'll just rely on the PP. Wait, oops, nvrmnd!

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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
Sjmay, you're wasting your time bro. These people will not be satisfied till another coach is brought in.

That coach will fail as well cause it's the players not the coach. And they will want him fired as well.

It's a never ending cycle till you get Difference makers on the ice. Players make coaches look good. Not the other way around.

For all the success Tippet has had, only twice has he advanced out of the first round. Trotz.......Never out of the first round. Even coaching Rudolov and Forsberg. Those two were not enough to get a Trotz coached team out of the first round.
And those difference we have are . . . ????

sorry, but good coaches bring out the best in their players. That's why a team like NJ sucked with a coach that couldn't hack it and they were a very strong team post all-star break witha very good coach (yes I know they didnt make the playoffs,but I also know we barely did)

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Originally Posted by Tikkanen View Post
The playoffs will be Kompon's last stand. He'll be back to teaching power skating classes next season. Murray will be given a pardon due to Kopitar's injury. If the team doesn't take a big step forward next season he'll get the axe.
From your lips to Gawd's ears, PLEASE!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
Disagree,

There is always a point,

Sydor25, and others, not just him,

They want a new coach with a new style, yet they don't understand the system that Murray has, all they see is the latest loss, or latest injury, or latest screw up etc.

They don't understand HOW he is one of the winningest coaches in the NHL, they don't understand how effective he has been at having one of the best defensive teams in the league also be one of the youngest, they don't understand how much of a feat that is.

They don't understand what the cycle is, let alone why the Kings use it, they don't understand why the Kings can't play like the Red Wings or Canucks, they just know, hey, Detroit and Vancouver win more, be like them,

They refuse to understand....and this thread, it's just a forum for them to gain some knowledge...
Thanks teacher. I aced this class last semester, and now I am supposed to take it again, and from you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurrilino View Post
You have some very good and acurate points.
You described exactly what we are doing but you didn't give a solution.
Just watch let's say as an example Nashville or Detroit.

They circumvent all what you said by entering the o-zone through the middle.
That forces the forchecker and the defender from one side to leave their position.

Suddenly you have a new game. The opponent is acting now and the defense has to react.
Entering the zone gives you the option to go straight to the goal what the defense tries to avoid.
That makes at least one winger available for a pass to the side what leads into a complete lateral movement on the opponent team.
Exactly this movement creates the open slot for the other winger to sneak into the back of the defender and if the center falls back a little bit you create a triangle without having the defense involved.

Just make this experiment in your head.
A) our system where you enters the o-zone at the board and have just one way
from the board towards the goal.

B) you enter the middle of the o-zone and have at least 3 options to do that.

What system would you prefer and what would you think about a professional coach who is usiong option A
Add speed through the neutral zone, forcing the players at the blue-line to back-off and viola, your creative players dont have to be stuck onto the boards.

And sj . . . you forgot in your very detailed look at the dump and chase cycle to summarize at the end. Its a system that helps minimize the opponents counter-attack and odd-man rushes, but it sacrifices lots of offensive opportunities. it also relies on near flawless execution, something that is harder in practice than in theory. The friction or bounces that don't go your way in any competition, be it war or battle, work harder consequences on our system than one which relies more on creativity and movement from defnsie into the offensive game.

Since TM has said we need to get more from the offensive D than previously (pre ankle fx), you'll note that Doubted, J(Not A MF)J and A-mart have jumped in and stayed down longer than previous, which shows that TM knows his system gives up offense.

Like all things in life and hockey, there is a trade off. IMO, a good caoch makes use of all the attributes of his various players, finding or developing a system accentuating their strengths while coaching to minimze their weaknesses, (while the GM can trade away weaknessess for strengths). trying to take square pegs and crushing them so as to fit in round holes makes players like Poni and Penner and Frolov far less useful than they otherwise could be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... Fixing what ails the Kings would be pretty simple; just get Kopitar and Williams back in the lineup somehow and go back to alternating the goalies. That seemed to be the structure when the Kings were playing their most effective hockey.
I like it, at least as to the goalie rotation. Let each other's competitive nature ratchet up the play of the other. But I think that a better offensive scheme would help greatly as well. You got any stats on that?

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04-10-2011, 05:36 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
I like it, at least as to the goalie rotation. Let each other's competitive nature ratchet up the play of the other. But I think that a better offensive scheme would help greatly as well. You got any stats on that?
... On the goalies? Ugh, I must have gone over those stats a million times. I just feel like what the Kings have right now are two potential number one goalies who haven't gotten over the hump yet, and one (Bernier) needs more starts to really be able to get a read on what he's able to do. If I were the coach next season, I'd play each guy 41 games - unless one shows himself to be clearly superior to the other.

And, in case you're wondering, I'd alternate the goalies in the upcoming playoffs. If the Kings have them both under contract, and don't want to favor one over the other, then give them both starts. There doesn't seem to be an expectation of doing much damage in the playoffs, so why not?

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04-10-2011, 05:41 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... On the goalies? Ugh, I must have gone over those stats a million times. I just feel like what the Kings have right now are two potential number one goalies who haven't gotten over the hump yet, and one (Bernier) needs more starts to really be able to get a read on what he's able to do. If I were the coach next season, I'd play each guy 41 games - unless one shows himself to be clearly superior to the other.

And, in case you're wondering, I'd alternate the goalies in the upcoming playoffs. If the Kings have them both under contract, and don't want to favor one over the other, then give them both starts. There doesn't seem to be an expectation of doing much damage in the playoffs, so why not?
Lot easier said than done.

I can't ever recall where a winning goaltender didn't get the start in the next game. Could be a recipe for a disaster and possibly a termination of the coach.

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04-10-2011, 05:44 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by RH63 View Post
Lot easier said than done.

I can't ever recall where a winning goaltender didn't get the start in the next game. Could be a recipe for a disaster and possibly a termination of the coach.
What's the downside again?

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04-10-2011, 05:48 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... On the goalies? Ugh, I must have gone over those stats a million times. I just feel like what the Kings have right now are two potential number one goalies who haven't gotten over the hump yet, and one (Bernier) needs more starts to really be able to get a read on what he's able to do. If I were the coach next season, I'd play each guy 41 games - unless one shows himself to be clearly superior to the other.

And, in case you're wondering, I'd alternate the goalies in the upcoming playoffs. If the Kings have them both under contract, and don't want to favor one over the other, then give them both starts. There doesn't seem to be an expectation of doing much damage in the playoffs, so why not?
You missed the joke: I was kidding you and asking for stats on a better offensive scheme.

oh well, NEXT!

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04-10-2011, 06:04 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by RH63 View Post
Lot easier said than done.

I can't ever recall where a winning goaltender didn't get the start in the next game. Could be a recipe for a disaster and possibly a termination of the coach.
... I think the chances of Murray being terminated in the upcoming offseason are zero, no matter what the results are. I have the feeling that, with the injuries, the Kings' organization considers themselves to be playing with house money at this point. Unless all of the games are blowout losses, no one's going anywhere, so I don't believe for a second that Murray wouldn't have the latitude to alternate the goalies.

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04-10-2011, 06:37 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... I think the chances of Murray being terminated in the upcoming offseason are zero, no matter what the results are. I have the feeling that, with the injuries, the Kings' organization considers themselves to be playing with house money at this point. Unless all of the games are blowout losses, no one's going anywhere, so I don't believe for a second that Murray wouldn't have the latitude to alternate the goalies.
It would be unconventional, but I would think that if TM came out and said he was going to go with a straight rotation, but that he would reconsider along the lines that if you win you play, that concept would help push the competitive nature of each goalie up.

At this point, in light of our injuries, what have we got to lose?

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04-10-2011, 06:39 PM
  #60
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I have not been happy with the use of the talent that DD, JJ and slightly less AM all have moving the puck out of the D zone and through the neutral zone.

Both buys are strong skaters and but it doesn't look like they are given an opportunity to use their talents. I am not sure if this is the system or they are told not to do it.

I have no problem with Murray, I just wonder if he allows the talent to come forth and be used.

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04-10-2011, 07:04 PM
  #61
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I'm a relatively new Kings fan and this is the first season I've gotten to see most of their games, so I'm a little fuzzy on the history of the team but also maybe can offer an outside perspective.

If we're talking next season, I don't think it's that complicated. Obviously one of their biggest problems is scoring goals. There's no way around that they need to bring in more offensive talent. They let some go with guys like Frolov and Cammaleri, and have paid too much for the the guys they're bringing in to replace those points. Taking on Smyth for $6.25 mill is a killer. $4.25 for Penner when he'll probably always be a 40-50 point guy.

The Kings have young, solid and cheap goaltending in Quick and Bernier which is a HUGE asset. They have a strong defensive system. They have team toughness. They just need a sniper or two with some skill (and ideally speed) to take some of the heat off Kopitar and Brown. Their power play looked respectable last night against the Ducks with little Moller out there because he actually finds the soft spots on the ice and can make skill passes. Oh, and he actually moves around and doesn't pivot like he's a bubble hockey player.

And for chrissakes fire whoever is in charge of their power play. Yes the team doesn't have a ton of skill, but their power play shouldn't be as sad as it is. And their 5 on 3 strategy where they keep three guys back at the blueline has got to be the worst strategy I've seen.

If we're talking playoffs, then there's not a lot to be done. It's cliche, but big time players have to step up. Penner, Smyth, Brown, Williams (hopefully). They have to grind out low scoring games and play inspired underdog hockey where you stick to the system.

As an aside, I think Doughty needs to reel his game in a bit. He's a super talent, but when the Kings get behind he tries to do too much. His shifts get too long and he gets caught. Or he tries a Bobby Orr end to end rush that only leads to a shot to the goalies chest from 50 feet or into a Dman's shinpads.

Anyway, I don't think this team is far away. It seems like a couple players. I'm not completely sold on Murray but haven't seen enough of him in the past to feel strongly.

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04-10-2011, 07:23 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Kurrilino View Post
I can't believe the ignorance.............


Again. I don't care that having 6 twenty goal scorer is a record for the Kings or the whole NHL if these guys were 30 goal scorer.
Is there any important award for having 6 twenty goal scorer ????
I could have 10 twenty goal scorer and would complain if these guys were 30 goal scorer before meeting Murray.


Would you people please wake up and judge the player and coaches by potential and not by the job saving phrasis some guys are throwing around.

Would i be happy with 20% PP and 4th best of the league ?????
No i clearly wouldn't. We have deadly PP weopens and our PP should be close to 30%
Everything else is dissapointment doesn't matter what 20% should mean for the Kings record.

Do we have 46 wins ???? Yes we do. But in Playoff we don't have a need for shootout specialist players and goalies. So pull 10 wins off this stat.
Is 36 wins leading us somewhere ???? No it isn't and the Playoff will proof that.

The only stat i'm interested in is we have the fewest goal scoring numbers of all playoff temas and we are in mid range if it comes to goals against.


But what do i know, this game is going on for 3 years now.
The people are following simple numbers on a paper sheet and believe in someone who isn't able to lead us to the holy land.
I really stopped to care about this staff but i'm really hurt when i have to see the damage that is done to the players and their future careers.
Question for you,

When other teams play the Kings, do you expect them just to lie down? Serious question, because you keep throwing out 30 goal scorers, and 30% on the powerplay, like you think it's easy or something?

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04-10-2011, 07:26 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Kurrilino View Post
You have some very good and acurate points.
You described exactly what we are doing but you didn't give a solution.
Just watch let's say as an example Nashville or Detroit.

They circumvent all what you said by entering the o-zone through the middle.
That forces the forchecker and the defender from one side to leave their position.

Suddenly you have a new game. The opponent is acting now and the defense has to react.
Entering the zone gives you the option to go straight to the goal what the defense tries to avoid.
That makes at least one winger available for a pass to the side what leads into a complete lateral movement on the opponent team.
Exactly this movement creates the open slot for the other winger to sneak into the back of the defender and if the center falls back a little bit you create a triangle without having the defense involved.

Just make this experiment in your head.
A) our system where you enters the o-zone at the board and have just one way
from the board towards the goal.

B) you enter the middle of the o-zone and have at least 3 options to do that.

What system would you prefer and what would you think about a professional coach who is usiong option A
First of all,

I didn't offer a solution, because I agree fundamentally with what Murray is doing with the personnel he has.

If he is doing this with Crosby, Malkin, Neal, and Kunitz, or Sedin, Sedin, Burrows, Raymond, Samuelsson, Kesler, then you might have a point, he is using this system with Kopitar, and Williams. just a slight difference no matter how good I think Kopitar is.

Second of all,

You keep bringing up Nashville and yet you don't realize they play the same freaking system??? Cmon man...

Third of all,

You enter through the middle of the offensive zone, you have A. no time, and B. no options, do you think defenseman are going to say, hey here, go ahead, and create a lane for you? Seriously bud...it's like you never watch the game...

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04-10-2011, 07:28 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Tikkanen View Post
Seems like kind of a trap thread. The guy asks to fix what ails the kings then dismantles any opinion you come up with and tells you you're wrong. I was asked to define taking a step forward? WOW!
What was a trap about that?

You said if they took a step forward, you are ok with keeping Murray,

What exactly is a step forward to you?

Unless you think everyone shares the same meaning...

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04-10-2011, 07:30 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post











Thanks teacher. I aced this class last semester, and now I am supposed to take it again, and from you?



Add speed through the neutral zone, forcing the players at the blue-line to back-off and viola, your creative players dont have to be stuck onto the boards.

And sj . . . you forgot in your very detailed look at the dump and chase cycle to summarize at the end. Its a system that helps minimize the opponents counter-attack and odd-man rushes, but it sacrifices lots of offensive opportunities. it also relies on near flawless execution, something that is harder in practice than in theory. The friction or bounces that don't go your way in any competition, be it war or battle, work harder consequences on our system than one which relies more on creativity and movement from defnsie into the offensive game.

Since TM has said we need to get more from the offensive D than previously (pre ankle fx), you'll note that Doubted, J(Not A MF)J and A-mart have jumped in and stayed down longer than previous, which shows that TM knows his system gives up offense.

Like all things in life and hockey, there is a trade off. IMO, a good caoch makes use of all the attributes of his various players, finding or developing a system accentuating their strengths while coaching to minimze their weaknesses, (while the GM can trade away weaknessess for strengths). trying to take square pegs and crushing them so as to fit in round holes makes players like Poni and Penner and Frolov far less useful than they otherwise could be.
Obviously you didn't ace if it if you are still *****ing about it and wondering why....but whatever bud...

Also, I didn't forget to summarize, I thought it was pretty clear,

Yes, this system limits creative offense, no one has ever said it doesn't, but the system is necessary due to personnel more than preference...

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04-10-2011, 07:33 PM
  #66
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What exactly is a step forward to you?
... Don't want to speak for Tik, but I would think that it's winning a playoff round?

That would have been the expectation (in my mind at least) if the team was healthy. But they're clearly not.

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04-10-2011, 07:37 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... Don't want to speak for Tik, but I would think that it's winning a playoff round?

That would have been the expectation (in my mind at least) if the team was healthy. But they're clearly not.
At least thanks for proving my point, ie. it changes depends on who you talk to lol.

Yea, if we were healthy, winning a round easily...

Now... being competitive in a round? Not sure to be honest...

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04-10-2011, 08:54 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Can't fix anything until July 1. The lack of finish, speed and passing is a glaring weakness. They are well covered in net and on defense, but offensively, they are lacking talent. They need more creativity, and this group of players isn't going to improve in that area. Look at how many veteran forwards the Kings have on the roster. Aside from bringing in fresh faces like Schenn or Loktionov, the Kings need to bring in a speedy winger who can generate offense.
This is it right here along with firing Terry Murray.

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04-10-2011, 09:00 PM
  #69
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-Drop Ryan Smyth. Replace his salary with someone like Gaborik
-Find a better coach that is more offensive
-Pair up DD and JJ more often
-Trade Quick for someone really good, make Bernier the #1 and lock him up long term
-Wait for Schenn to develop

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04-10-2011, 09:04 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by kingdoughty View Post
-Drop Ryan Smyth. Replace his salary with someone like Gaborik
-Find a better coach that is more offensive
-Pair up DD and JJ more often
-Trade Quick for someone really good, make Bernier the #1 and lock him up long term
-Wait for Schenn to develop
Someone like Gaborik - A. Who is available, B. What do you think it will take to get, someone like Gaborik.

You want to pair up our two best offensive D so only one can be effective on the rush, or did you figure that 2 rushing D is a good thing?

You want to trade the proven goaltender, in a down market for goaltenders, in hopes that someone who has 25 NHL games, can take the team to the next level?

This I finally agree with, develop Schenn patiently and don't be in a hurry....

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04-10-2011, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
Someone like Gaborik - A. Who is available, B. What do you think it will take to get, someone like Gaborik.
Semin maybe? i dont really know, find someone. im not a gm

it would prob take someone like Quick or simmonds +. and ya im cool with trading simmonds...do it while his value is still really high

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
You want to pair up our two best offensive D so only one can be effective on the rush, or did you figure that 2 rushing D is a good thing?
i said more often, not all the time. they play good together. they both good at d, first pass, the rush, and offense

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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
You want to trade the proven goaltender, in a down market for goaltenders, in hopes that someone who has 25 NHL games, can take the team to the next level?
bernier is better

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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
This I finally agree with, develop Schenn patiently and don't be in a hurry....
cool

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04-10-2011, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by kingdoughty View Post
Semin maybe? i dont really know, find someone. im not a gm


i said more often, not all the time. they play good together. they both good at d, first pass, the rush, and offense


bernier is better


cool
Semin? A.) what would you trade, B.) even though you aren't a GM, I am assuming you are a knowledgeable hockey fan, you don't have to be a GM to have an opinion on who you want to get and what you would give up for them.

Doughty-Johnson, they are paired up when they need to be, end of games, power plays, when else would you like them to be paired up?

Bernier is better? I like that, how is he better? What exactly does he do that is better?

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04-10-2011, 09:38 PM
  #73
kingdoughty
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
Semin? A.) what would you trade, B.) even though you aren't a GM, I am assuming you are a knowledgeable hockey fan, you don't have to be a GM to have an opinion on who you want to get and what you would give up for them.

Doughty-Johnson, they are paired up when they need to be, end of games, power plays, when else would you like them to be paired up?

Bernier is better? I like that, how is he better? What exactly does he do that is better?

A. Relax
B. I would do Simmonds + Hickey + any other picks and prospect we need to throw for Semin
C. DD and JJ really aren't paired up as often as u make it out to be...
D. Bernier is better at rebound control, position, and at making the first save. plus he is younger and has more potential

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04-10-2011, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
First of all,

I didn't offer a solution, because I agree fundamentally with what Murray is doing with the personnel he has.

If he is doing this with Crosby, Malkin, Neal, and Kunitz, or Sedin, Sedin, Burrows, Raymond, Samuelsson, Kesler, then you might have a point, he is using this system with Kopitar, and Williams. just a slight difference no matter how good I think Kopitar is.

Second of all,

You keep bringing up Nashville and yet you don't realize they play the same freaking system??? Cmon man...
Third of all,

You enter through the middle of the offensive zone, you have A. no time, and B. no options, do you think defenseman are going to say, hey here, go ahead, and create a lane for you? Seriously bud...it's like you never watch the game...
Not Offensively they dont. Sorry pal you got it wrong there.

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04-10-2011, 11:11 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
Not Offensively they dont. Sorry pal you got it wrong there.
Really?

They don't try and play a puck possession, get the puck in deep, cycle it and wait for mistakes game?

Ok, I will bite, what system do you think Nashville plays?

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