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The Meszaros Trade: Has it been worth it?

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Old
04-10-2011, 08:21 PM
  #76
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4 points came up huge in the last game of the season. He could be clutch in the playoffs.

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04-10-2011, 10:08 PM
  #77
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Meszaros has probably been one of the most consistent guys on the team...especially defensive wise. the trade was well worth it, and with the cap supposedly going up next season there's really no need to worry about his salary next year

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04-11-2011, 10:49 AM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan4Life View Post
Meszaros has probably been one of the most consistent guys on the team...especially defensive wise. the trade was well worth it, and with the cap supposedly going up next season there's really no need to worry about his salary next year
...the cap is going up quite modestly as of now, and we're going to lose a body that played a lot of important minutes next year most likely.

The acquisition of Meszaros and non-trade of another expensive D had two primary ramifications for the roster.

1) We couldn't invest that money in the forward corps.

2) We couldn't invest that money in our goaltending tandem.

As to #1, the offense has been anemic since January... and we're about to find out a bit about #2. The issue with the Meszaros trade has never been so much about Meszaros as it was about the philosophical over commitment to the D financially.

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04-11-2011, 11:04 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The issue with the Meszaros trade has never been so much about Meszaros as it was about the philosophical over commitment to the D financially.
I agree, it is a question of whether to spend big on D or goalies. I agree with the Flyers, you can win with the best D in the league and a middle of the pack goalie. Assuming Bob is February good and not April bad, that philosophy should still be true in the playoffs. Boucher can also win with Pronger led D in front of him and the Flyers scoring at full capacity.

Next year is the same boat, Bob and possibly Boucher/Leighton/Hedberg/Emery is a perfectly fine tandom. If folks want the Flyers to go Vokoun/Bryzgalov, then we need to redo the team as we completely change the dynamics. We are no longer three scoring lines deep with a solid top 6 on D. We will have to give at least 1 quality forward and 1 quality D off the cap.

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04-11-2011, 11:21 AM
  #80
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Canucks Defensive Numbers: Elite Defense + Elite Goaltending
Bruins Defensive Numbers: Above Average Defense + Elite Goaltending
Penguins Defensive Numbers: Strong Defense + Above Average Goaltending
Flyers Defensive Numbers: Elite Defense (but Pronger was not healthy all year) + Average Goaltending (being generous)

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04-11-2011, 11:26 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Canucks Defensive Numbers: Elite Defense + Elite Goaltending
Bruins Defensive Numbers: Above Average Defense + Elite Goaltending
Penguins Defensive Numbers: Strong Defense + Above Average Goaltending
Flyers Defensive Numbers: Elite Defense (but Pronger was not healthy all year) + Average Goaltending (being generous)
there is not a single number in that post


Last edited by Villedelphia*: 04-11-2011 at 02:58 PM.
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04-11-2011, 11:26 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Canucks Defensive Numbers: Elite Defense + Elite Goaltending
Bruins Defensive Numbers: Above Average Defense + Elite Goaltending
Penguins Defensive Numbers: Strong Defense + Above Average Goaltending
Flyers Defensive Numbers: Elite Defense (but Pronger was not healthy all year) + Average Goaltending (being generous)
what is the goal of this post? To show our goalie is the worst out of those 4 teams?

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04-11-2011, 11:27 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Villedelphia View Post
there is not a single number in that post, yet still very definite and scientific. I admire you Chris
I try very hard to be awesome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HoverCarle View Post
what is the goal of this post? To show our goalie is the worst out of those 4 teams?
To examine a little more of Jester's theory that we may have spent too much on defense ignoring the goaltending aspect of things.

I disagree with anyone who thinks the money could've have been spent elsewhere more effectively, but...

VAN GAA - 2.20
BOS GAA - 2.30
PIT GAA - 2.39
PHI GAA - 2.63

I also believe we have the best defense on paper albeit without Pronger for a hefty chunk of the season.

It either speaks worlds about how much we rely on Pronger or worlds about Bobrovsky/Boucher at the moment.

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04-11-2011, 11:30 AM
  #84
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I try very hard to be awesome.
Im sorry to hear that

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04-11-2011, 11:45 AM
  #85
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I would prefer 2.30 GAA to 2.69 GAA, but maybe thats just me

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04-11-2011, 11:54 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by HoverCarle View Post
I would prefer 2.30 GAA to 2.69 GAA, but maybe thats just me
Three problems come to mind...

1. What is our GAA with healthy Pronger the entire season because that's relevant to the defense that Holmgren assembled?

2. Would removing Meszaros for a better goalie necessarily result in a better GAA?

and...

3. Is it really an unimportant problem to discuss because without the acquisition of Meszaros our GAA would have fallen drastically anyway without someone to fill in for Pronger's big minutes?

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04-11-2011, 11:54 AM
  #87
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Although I understand Jesters weariness of spending too much on the D, this year was exactly the year we should have done it.

Pronger has missed 32 games, and may miss some more in the playoffs. I am happy we went a little overboard with the D. Walker is a different story....

We are the highest scoring team in the east, and 3rd highest in the league. So let us not try and paint the picture that we are starving at offense. We have been going through a scoring drought lately, but we have been doing everything bad since January.

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04-11-2011, 12:04 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Three problems come to mind...

1. What is our GAA with healthy Pronger the entire season because that's relevant to the defense that Holmgren assembled?

2. Would removing Meszaros for a better goalie necessarily result in a better GAA?

and...

3. Is it really an unimportant problem to discuss because without the acquisition of Meszaros our GAA would have fallen drastically anyway without someone to fill in for Pronger's big minutes?
#1 easy enough to figure out if you want to do a little work.

#2/3 are purposefully ignoring the actual decision that was put forward last summer. Which was a D involving a choice of removing one of Carl/Coburn (if you want Meszaros) and then spending on a cheaper alternative. The other frustrating aspect was arguably better options that didn't go for much more than Meszaros is making.

And, for the record, swapping Carle out for a solid D would most likely help our GAA (while hurting the offense a bit).

You are also ignoring that I specifically mentioned spending on the forward corps... and you know the one thing that I still really want and we've never gone and got? An actual faceoff guy... which certainly would help a bit with defensive statistics.

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04-11-2011, 12:05 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KimiFerrari View Post
Although I understand Jesters weariness of spending too much on the D, this year was exactly the year we should have done it.

Pronger has missed 32 games, and may miss some more in the playoffs. I am happy we went a little overboard with the D. Walker is a different story....

We are the highest scoring team in the east, and 3rd highest in the league. So let us not try and paint the picture that we are starving at offense. We have been going through a scoring drought lately, but we have been doing everything bad since January.
Goals you were scoring in January aren't much good now... team certainly has offensive talent, but it hasn't been producing to the degree we would like this year. Most problematic is the PP.

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04-11-2011, 01:09 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KimiFerrari View Post
Although I understand Jesters weariness of spending too much on the D, this year was exactly the year we should have done it.

Pronger has missed 32 games, and may miss some more in the playoffs. I am happy we went a little overboard with the D. Walker is a different story....

We are the highest scoring team in the east, and 3rd highest in the league. So let us not try and paint the picture that we are starving at offense. We have been going through a scoring drought lately, but we have been doing everything bad since January.
The Flyers, Canucks, Red Wings and Bruins are among the teams that spend the most on D - and it's pretty close between them, IIRC from the hockey news article on it. Is there any reason we should question the spending on D, while being one of the highest scoring teams in the league? No.

Homer made a great move adding Meszaros as the #5D. It worked.

And he was trying to sign Hamhuis before the deadline and was rebuffed in an effort to obtain advance rights to Michalek from Phx too when Hamhuis balked. Then he acquired Meszaros on deadline day. It's one of the best trades of the year.

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04-11-2011, 01:10 PM
  #91
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July 1st =/= deadline day

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04-11-2011, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
and you know the one thing that I still really want and we've never gone and got? An actual faceoff guy... which certainly would help a bit with defensive statistics.
I remember two years ago I wanted so bad for us to sign Manny Malhotra. We signed Betts. That one is easy for us to look at and say, could have, should have but didn't (noboby signed him until the season started, so clearly he was available). Last year I wanted Belanger.

Carter is helping this year with his improved FO% but having Malhotra would have been a HUGE piece.


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04-11-2011, 01:18 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
The Flyers, Canucks, Red Wings and Bruins are among the teams that spend the most on D - and it's pretty close between them, IIRC from the hockey news article on it. Is there any reason we should question the spending on D, while being one of the highest scoring teams in the league? No.

Homer made a great move adding Meszaros as the #5D. It worked.

And he was trying to sign Hamhuis before the deadline and was rebuffed in an effort to obtain advance rights to Michalek from Phx too when Hamhuis balked. Then he acquired Meszaros on deadline day. It's one of the best trades of the year.
Canucks and Bruins are also both heavily invested in goal... so that sort of removes them from a meaningful comparison to our spending practices.

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04-11-2011, 01:44 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I'd trade Carle for Downie and Carlson EVERY SINGLE DAY OF THE WEEK.

.
John Carlson will end up being a better player then Carle is. So no that is not a trade I would do. Its all hindsight anyway. Because we all know what would of happened anyway.
Holmgren would of traded Carlson,Sbisa and a 1st for Pronger and that turd that came along with Pronger in that trade had we never made that deal and drafted Carlson.
Carlson has 7 goals and 30 assists playing on a team that isnt as good offensively in past years and is playing defensive hockey. Yeah who needs that at only 900k

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04-11-2011, 01:56 PM
  #95
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John Carlson will end up being a better player then Carle is. So no that is not a trade I would do. Its all hindsight anyway. Because we all know what would of happened anyway.
You would not trade Carle for the return of Downie and Carlson?

...You've lost me somewhere. You seem to contradict yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
Holmgren would of traded Carlson,Sbisa and a 1st for Pronger and that turd that came along with Pronger in that trade had we never made that deal and drafted Carlson.
Carlson has 7 goals and 30 assists playing on a team that isnt as good offensively in past years and is playing defensive hockey. Yeah who needs that at only 900k
He's going to be an absolute stud. Seriously, Carlson is going to be awesome and it hurts that we could've had him...and a theoretical team that looks like:

vanRiemsdyk - Richards - Versteeg
Hartnell - Briere - Leino
Carter - Giroux - Downie
Nodl - Betts - Powe

Pronger - Carlson
Timonen - Coburn
Meszaros - O'Donnell

Bobrovsky
Boucher

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04-11-2011, 02:01 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
You would not trade Carle for the return of Downie and Carlson?

...You've lost me somewhere. You seem to contradict yourself.
yeah thats my bad. I misread your post. Would of been nice to draft Carlson and keep him. But that isnt Holmgren's style.

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04-11-2011, 02:07 PM
  #97
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... and you know the one thing that I still really want and we've never gone and got? An actual faceoff guy... which certainly would help a bit with defensive statistics.
I'm curious, who do you think we should have targeted? I think Betts has done a good job overall on the penalty kill.

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04-11-2011, 02:11 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
You would not trade Carle for the return of Downie and Carlson?

...You've lost me somewhere. You seem to contradict yourself.

He's going to be an absolute stud. Seriously, Carlson is going to be awesome and it hurts that we could've had him...
I know you aren't posing the question to me, but I would pull the trigger on that deal - it's obviously a moot point now - in a heart beat.

The Caps defensive corps are going to be pretty scary in a few years with Alzner, Carlson, and Green.

Edit: didn't mean to double post :/

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04-11-2011, 02:25 PM
  #99
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I'm curious, who do you think we should have targeted? I think Betts has done a good job overall on the penalty kill.
He doesn't really have a point or if he did it seems to have eluded him.

When we acquired Betts he was a very strong defensive player and faceoff man. He was actually someone the fanbase here on HF really want regardless of how long the organization dragged their feet.

Just because Betts' shoulder is currently preventing him from being a dominant force in the circle or because he is not as good as Malholtra (who I remember hearing mixed discussion of when the opportunity came for us to acquire him) in particular.

What Jester really wants is a legitimate "3rd line" center. He wants an actual 3rd line with a center like Jordan Staal, who is effectively the "perfect" 3rd line center should one actually exist.

Richards, being the better and more advanced version of Staal, would probably make a great 3rd line center if he was being used in that role.

Really, if Richards was better at faceoffs people wouldn't be able to complain like they do. I was never really that interested in downgrading our current roster just to fill some imaginary role that seems to have cropped up in the hearts and souls of a lot of the users on this board.

Our third line...aka shutdown line...aka Richards' line...is also a 1st line...aka scoring line. There is absolutely no reason to screw with it.

If we need someone to take defensive faceoffs, that guy is supposed to be Betts. He has not performed up to his usual standards recently hence why we're rehashing this old debate.

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04-11-2011, 02:56 PM
  #100
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I'm curious, who do you think we should have targeted? I think Betts has done a good job overall on the penalty kill.
Manny Molhotra two years ago. WOuld have been a HUGE pickup for us. Many teams passed on him, I have no idea why. We was a stud for San Jose just like EVERYONE thought he would be.

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