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The Meszaros Trade: Has it been worth it?

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Old
04-11-2011, 02:58 PM
  #101
Jester
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Actually I argued vehemently for them to go after Malhotra a couple of years ago (available again last offseason), and it would have been great if we'd had the cap space to nab Belanger last summer after the Caps fiasco, No?

So, I do have a point... there have been options.

And for those that think faceoffs don't matter... go back and watch the SCFs as the Hawks were winning key draw after key draw at will.

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04-11-2011, 03:04 PM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
He doesn't really have a point or if he did it seems to have eluded him.
Yes, don't have a point about draws... not like we haven't had very specific conversations on this board dating back years about the faceoff situation.

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If we need someone to take defensive faceoffs, that guy is supposed to be Betts. He has not performed up to his usual standards recently hence why we're rehashing this old debate.
Betts has never really been a stud in the circle (solid, and that's all), and the shoulder isn't helping matters.

One can talk about Richards all they want, but he isn't very good in the circle.

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04-11-2011, 03:08 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Actually I argued vehemently for them to go after Malhotra a couple of years ago (available again last offseason), and it would have been great if we'd had the cap space to nab Belanger last summer after the Caps fiasco, No?

So, I do have a point... there have been options.

And for those that think faceoffs don't matter... go back and watch the SCFs as the Hawks were winning key draw after key draw at will.
yep. remember the series against Pittsburgh the year before? They were winning every faceoff it seemed. We would be on the PP, opening draw, they win the faceoff, get to the winger or dman and they dump it down. I saw that over and over. We got killed on special teams draws time after time.

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04-11-2011, 03:10 PM
  #104
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Another reason why Carter should be a C and not a W. (though Giroux has improved on draws a bit)

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04-11-2011, 03:11 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Actually I argued vehemently for them to go after Malhotra a couple of years ago (available again last offseason), and it would have been great if we'd had the cap space to nab Belanger last summer after the Caps fiasco, No?

So, I do have a point... there have been options.

And for those that think faceoffs don't matter... go back and watch the SCFs as the Hawks were winning key draw after key draw at will.
You missed a good opportunity to work in demonstrably Jester.


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04-11-2011, 03:12 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by HoverCarle View Post
Another reason why Carter should be a C and not a W. (though Giroux has improved on draws a bit)
I've seen that as the only reason why Carter has a legitimate argument to be "C" instead of "W" over Giroux...

Giroux has him beat offensively, dynamically, physically, and maybe defensively.

Carter has size and faceoffs.

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04-11-2011, 03:13 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I've seen that as the only reason why Carter has a legitimate argument to be "C" instead of "W" over Giroux...
That and the fact that he's been playing the defensive center position with a great deal of regularity on that line.

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Giroux has him beat offensively, dynamically, physically, and maybe defensively.

Carter has size and faceoffs.
That right there is BS... they seem to be on the quick flip plan with that line, and when Carter rotates down he stays down. Pay attention to how often Carter ends up as the man down low and Giroux is out in the RW slot... also why Giroux is so often the one leading rushes up ice.

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04-11-2011, 03:14 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
That and the fact that he's been playing the defensive center position with a great deal of regularity on that line.
Carter's offense has always been overrated and his defense has always been underrated, but I'm not so sure he still tops Giroux defensively.

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04-11-2011, 03:14 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I've seen that as the only reason why Carter has a legitimate argument to be "C" instead of "W" over Giroux...
Size down the middle. (sounds dirty)

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04-11-2011, 03:17 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
That right there is BS... they seem to be on the quick flip plan with that line, and when Carter rotates down he stays down. Pay attention to how often Carter ends up as the man down low and Giroux is out in the RW slot... also why Giroux is so often the one leading rushes up ice.
I'll keep a closer eye on it. I haven't paid much attention to the Carter vs. Giroux center drama for a while now.

If you are correct though, then there's no reason for Giroux to be taking draws if he's not even playing the center role.

I'm more curious as to see who carries the role offensively as opposed to defensively. You normally want the more dynamic forward working the center's role offensively. It puts the puck on his stick more theoretically.

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04-11-2011, 03:19 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I'll keep a closer eye on it. I haven't paid much attention to the Carter vs. Giroux center drama for a while now.

If you are correct though, then there's no reason for Giroux to be taking draws if he's not even playing the center role.

I'm more curious as to see who carries the role offensively as opposed to defensively.
Well, Carter wins there, too.

Giroux: 3.37 GFON/60 2.50 GAON/60
Carter: 3.54 GFON/60 2.18 GAON/60

Carter has, once again, been our best even strength forward by a good bit.

And the faceoff thing is completely and utterly inexplicable... especially when they send friggin Briere out there for key draws in the 3rd period (which happened recently).

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04-11-2011, 03:20 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Carter's offense has always been overrated and his defense has always been underrated, but I'm not so sure he still tops Giroux defensively.
Our top even strength goal scorer 3 years in a row is overrated offensively?

Carter is miles ahead of G defensively. Carter's hand eye at knocking down passes is great, he has great reach and strength and instincts.

Giroux is still an alright defensive player, but he is not as good as Carter.


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04-11-2011, 03:23 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Well, Carter wins there, too.

Giroux: 3.37 GFON/60 2.50 GAON/60
Carter: 3.54 GFON/60 2.18 GAON/60

Carter has, once again, been our best even strength forward by a good bit.

And the faceoff thing is completely and utterly inexplicable... especially when they send friggin Briere out there for key draws in the 3rd period (which happened recently).
Again, while the numbers certainly demonstrate that Carter is far more productive than the haters here care to realize (I'm already aware), I don't think that necessarily means Carter makes a better center than Giroux.

I still would rather have Giroux forcing the play and forecheck in the offensive zone regardless of Carter's numerical production.

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04-11-2011, 03:24 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Again, while the numbers certainly demonstrate that Carter is far more productive than the haters here care to realize (I'm already aware), I don't think that necessarily means Carter makes a better center than Giroux.

I still would rather have Giroux forcing the play and forecheck in the offensive zone regardless of Carter's numerical production.
...but we usually have a wing as the front man on the forecheck...

I think you need to watch that line a bit closer... there's a lot of positional goofiness when they're on the ice.

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04-11-2011, 03:25 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Again, while the numbers certainly demonstrate that Carter is far more productive than the haters here care to realize (I'm already aware), I don't think that necessarily means Carter makes a better center than Giroux.

I still would rather have Giroux forcing the play and forecheck in the offensive zone regardless of Carter's numerical production.
Well here are some more numbers:

Carter at Center- Great
Giroux at Center- Very good

and as Jester says:
Quote:
..but we usually have a wing as the front man on the forecheck...

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04-11-2011, 03:27 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
...but we usually have a wing as the front man on the forecheck...

I think you need to watch that line a bit closer... there's a lot of positional goofiness when they're on the ice.
If I remember correctly, under Stevens it was normally centers. I remember Richards consistently doing it.

Under Laviolette it's seemed to be Nodl/Versteeg, Leino, and Giroux.

All but Giroux are in fact wingers, yes.

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Originally Posted by Villedelphia View Post
Well here are some more numbers:

Carter at Center- Great
Giroux at Center- Very good

and as Jester says:
All this is well and good, and I agree (as I always have) that Giroux should be made into a long-term winger...

But it still doesn't make any sense for Laviolette to just use Giroux on faceoffs when that (and size) is his most glaring pitfall from Carter when he just switches them up after the faceoff anyway.

Laviolette doesn't just do things for no reason. There has to be some reason for it to be occurring. Otherwise it's just wasted effort.

That said, regardless of what position is the heavy player on the forecheck, I want Giroux doing that on his line, not Carter.

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04-11-2011, 03:30 PM
  #117
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Yeah we send the wingers in first most of the time. On the rush I think G plays Centre, but on D I think Carter usually does

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04-11-2011, 03:31 PM
  #118
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We're playing an aggressive version of the left-wing lock essentially... so, generally, you have the center holding the middle with the RW trying to close things off. If the puck comes loose you'll have the center jumping the guy, but the general idea is that he's trying to mess up the pass away from the forechecker.

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04-11-2011, 03:36 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by HoverCarle View Post
Yeah we send the wingers in first most of the time. On the rush I think G plays Centre, but on D I think Carter usually does
I honestly believe when you see Carter taking the centre's role in the defensive zone it's because it's his instinct to do so.

Most of the time he's in the winger spot.

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04-11-2011, 03:39 PM
  #120
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I honestly believe when you see Carter taking the centre's role in the defensive zone it's because it's his instinct to do so.

Most of the time he's in the winger spot.
He plays his position, but that line switches quickly... and, frankly, they should. Once he goes down, he stays down too. Compared to the other lines, the defensive rotation is notable.

Of course, Hartnell plays far lower in the zone with Briere than you see with the others... it's most glaring because when Richards is out there it's absolutely clear where everyone belongs.

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04-11-2011, 03:44 PM
  #121
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He plays his position, but that line switches quickly... and, frankly, they should. Once he goes down, he stays down too. Compared to the other lines, the defensive rotation is notable.

Of course, Hartnell plays far lower in the zone with Briere than you see with the others... it's most glaring because when Richards is out there it's absolutely clear where everyone belongs.
That has caused confusion many times.

Once Carter goes behind the goal line, he's not thinking about where he should be; he's acting on instinct.

Your point about Richards can't be overstated. With Carter, should he stay on the wing, his positioning and responsibilities in the defensive zone will improve over time. I'd rather him be the centre on that line but, as it is, he's still had less than a season's experience as a winger in the defensive zone.

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04-11-2011, 03:45 PM
  #122
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I think Lavi's problem with faceoffs is that he views everyone as equal.

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04-11-2011, 03:53 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
That has caused confusion many times.

Once Carter goes behind the goal line, he's not thinking about where he should be; he's acting on instinct.

Your point about Richards can't be overstated. With Carter, should he stay on the wing, his positioning and responsibilities in the defensive zone will improve over time. I'd rather him be the centre on that line but, as it is, he's still had less than a season's experience as a winger in the defensive zone.
Each line does their own thing. Carter is usually back first, since he's often the high man in the slot, so he takes the deep coverage. Hartnell or Leino both take the deep coverage because after an offensive flurry, Briere usually falls down in the other team's end to avoid having to backcheck. Richards takes care of his end, as you point out.

I really don't know what they insist on wasting Carter at RW. One of the reasons the team was so good last year as that whoever Carter's linemates were (Hartnell/Briere, JVR/Giroux), the other team had to watch their match up to keep the speed up the centre covered.

Playing with Giroux at centre, a dipsy doodler, means that Carter only gets up to full speed on the backcheck, when he doesn't have to wait for his linemates.

It's really stupid coaching by Lavy. Whatever his reasoning is, it's just dumb to waste one of the things that used to make your team superior (Carter's speed and size up the middle).

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04-11-2011, 03:55 PM
  #124
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That has caused confusion many times.

Once Carter goes behind the goal line, he's not thinking about where he should be; he's acting on instinct.

Your point about Richards can't be overstated. With Carter, should he stay on the wing, his positioning and responsibilities in the defensive zone will improve over time. I'd rather him be the centre on that line but, as it is, he's still had less than a season's experience as a winger in the defensive zone.
See, I think there's an understanding going on there. Carter is MILES superior to Giroux playing defensively low in the zone. He has the long reach that helps him break up plays, has the size to ride guys off, etc.

As effective as they have been as a tandem, I really don't understand why they're married to Giroux at center.

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04-11-2011, 04:23 PM
  #125
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I'd love to see both Betts and Powe gone next season.

Nodl should fill Betts role, and sign Kenopka to take Betts role. Kenopka adds more toughness to the team, but more importantly we add a very good face-off man to the 4th line.

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