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Old
04-11-2011, 03:37 AM
  #101
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BTW Die,

I will amend that Koviu goal, it was a 5-4, not a 5-3, regardless it was also a blown coverage that allowed Perry to make that pass. Doughty should never have been that high up, he was drifting, when Getzlaf was at the top of the circle, look at Doughty's stick, in the middle instead of the passing lane, it's subtle, but it's blown, he allows the Getzlaf pass to Perry and he is too high up to pressure Perry, Scuderi has to play a 2-1 right in front of the net,

THAT's how cross ice passes happen, especially on a power play, they don't have happen very often 5-5,

But thanks for playing...

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04-11-2011, 03:50 AM
  #102
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Once again why is everyone so in love with Trotz...The guy has never been out of the first round, NEVER ,NEVER,NEVER,NEVER EVER.

Even with the likes of Rudulov, Forsberg, and Kariya On the same roster no doubt. Add in Rinnie, Weber, Vokun, Suter ETC ETC.

Jesus, this guy has brought nothing to Nashville. Except, multiple first round exists. Tippet's record in the post season is not much better.

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04-11-2011, 04:00 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
Once again why is everyone so in love with Trotz...The guy has never been out of the first round, NEVER ,NEVER,NEVER,NEVER EVER.

Even with the likes of Rudulov, Forsberg, and Kariya On the same roster no doubt. Add in Rinnie, Weber, Vokun, Suter ETC ETC.

Jesus, this guy has brought nothing to Nashville. Except, multiple first round exists. Tippet's record in the post season is not much better.
It's the system, Diehard is convinced they play a different system than LA that generates more offense, but can't explain why they have the same amount of goals scored, and pretty much the same amount of goals against...

Watch out though, he might ignore you too, only apparently though if you are a ref lol

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04-11-2011, 04:07 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
It's the system, Diehard is convinced they play a different system than LA that generates more offense, but can't explain why they have the same amount of goals scored, and pretty much the same amount of goals against...

Watch out though, he might ignore you too, only apparently though if you are a ref lol
Phoenix and Nashville play the same Boring Defense First system that the Kings play.

Anyone that see's that different is blind.

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04-11-2011, 07:59 AM
  #105
RAZZIE King
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Can we just send Kompon to my vet and get that power play fixed???

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04-11-2011, 08:29 AM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
It's the system, Diehard is convinced they play a different system than LA that generates more offense, but can't explain why they have the same amount of goals scored, and pretty much the same amount of goals against...

Watch out though, he might ignore you too, only apparently though if you are a ref lol
no only if you're a stubborn argumentative ref that thinks he knows everything

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04-11-2011, 08:43 AM
  #107
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That which ails the Kings shall be addressed on Draft Day. Book it!

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04-11-2011, 02:32 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
First of all,

I didn't offer a solution, because I agree fundamentally with what Murray is doing with the personnel he has.

If he is doing this with Crosby, Malkin, Neal, and Kunitz, or Sedin, Sedin, Burrows, Raymond, Samuelsson, Kesler, then you might have a point, he is using this system with Kopitar, and Williams. just a slight difference no matter how good I think Kopitar is.

Second of all,

You keep bringing up Nashville and yet you don't realize they play the same freaking system??? Cmon man...

Third of all,

You enter through the middle of the offensive zone, you have A. no time, and B. no options, do you think defenseman are going to say, hey here, go ahead, and create a lane for you? Seriously bud...it's like you never watch the game...

A) I don't know what Nashville you are talking about but the Preds play a complete different offensive system.

B) Maybe i'm not able to explain my poitn or there is some other missunderstanding.
The whole point of my system is to force the defender out of position. I don't know what you arues are about the defender offers a lane. Maybe you read my system again.

C) My usual point. If the Kings always did everythign right and have a real great coaching staff plus the best players for the system........... where are my Stanley Cups ????

I love you guys who wanna have a change without changing anything

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04-11-2011, 03:11 PM
  #109
Andrew Knoll
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If you don't have two units with five skilled passers, your power play is not going to be good. If you don't score on the power play, a conservative team is not going to score very many goals. The idea of this type of system is to play constantly strong defense and opportunistic offense, if you don't cash in on power plays, that's anything but opportunistic.

Schenn will help the power play immensely, I think, Loktionov logged his best minutes there, too. They still need a finisher. Right now the lack of speed on the outside is glaring when you've got Handzus and Penner skating together and sometimes Clifford and Westgarth. The guys who have above average speed look blazing fast right now.

Overall the foundation is there and some of the older guys are about to hit an impasse, which will given Lombardi the opportunity to mold certain spots on the team a bit differently.

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04-11-2011, 04:13 PM
  #110
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What, a fun thread...

Great to see the give and take guys... enjoyed it emmensely!
Murray's and even Kompoms systems don't really pain me too much! Even the lack of creativity and the predictability... But the psychosis happens with his inaine line changes and lack of chemistry that ensues due to this practice!!!

He (our beloved savior coach) simpley cannot help himself, when in doubt change it up is his credo and first line of defense! This utterly drives me to distraction and frustration. The rest is actually not to bothersome to me and much is commendable to be honest. I don't hate Murray or Kompoms... but there are times I would love to knock some sense into Murray's head about the lines.

What is amazing is that the players never ever critisize this, even after they leave. I call that very classy, of the players who have left.

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04-11-2011, 04:23 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randart View Post
Great to see the give and take guys... enjoyed it emmensely!
Murray's and even Kompoms systems don't really pain me too much! Even the lack of creativity and the predictability... But the psychosis happens with his inaine line changes and lack of chemistry that ensues due to this practice!!!

He (our beloved savior coach) simpley cannot help himself, when in doubt change it up is his credo and first line of defense! This utterly drives me to distraction and frustration. The rest is actually not to bothersome to me and much is commendable to be honest. I don't hate Murray or Kompoms... but there are times I would love to knock some sense into Murray's head about the lines.

What is amazing is that the players never ever critisize this, even after they leave. I call that very classy, of the players who have left.
One thing that I don't think is in doubt is that the players lay it on the line for Murray and like playing here. He is well-respected in the dressing room and guys who've come up for deals this year have taken reasonable if not under-market deals. He had to overspend to lure some FAs to what was a weaker team at that time but as far as returning players, guys like the team, the organization and the staff.

This year I don't think it was so much over-changing the lines as the fact that there was no magic combination, they were at least one forward short of a complete top six/nine all season and that never ceased to be the case. He kept that Smyth/Stoll/Williams line together for a long time, he's pretty well stuck with the Clifford and Simmonds combo once it clicked, so I don't think he is too quick on the trigger in every situation or anything.

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04-11-2011, 04:55 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Knoll View Post
One thing that I don't think is in doubt is that the players lay it on the line for Murray and like playing here. He is well-respected in the dressing room and guys who've come up for deals this year have taken reasonable if not under-market deals. He had to overspend to lure some FAs to what was a weaker team at that time but as far as returning players, guys like the team, the organization and the staff.

This year I don't think it was so much over-changing the lines as the fact that there was no magic combination, they were at least one forward short of a complete top six/nine all season and that never ceased to be the case. He kept that Smyth/Stoll/Williams line together for a long time, he's pretty well stuck with the Clifford and Simmonds combo once it clicked, so I don't think he is too quick on the trigger in every situation or anything.
He's not quick enough on the trigger right now. It's pretty clear the lines he has at the moment can't put the puck in the net.

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04-11-2011, 05:07 PM
  #113
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The team has to stop being so damn predictable. That's the ultimate problem over the past few seasons. This team is awful at adjusting. They can stun the NHL with fresh look at the start of a playoff series or season, but once their opponents get it, they don't know what to do.

The Canucks solved the Kings powerplay by game 4 last post season and the results speak for themselves. The Kings could not adjust. They kept trying the same thing over and over again.

A little more flexibility would do this team all kinds of wonders.

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04-11-2011, 05:11 PM
  #114
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Regarding Quick, I'd say he's a good value goaltender. He provides solid goaltending at a great price that will allow the Kings to do other things, like add offensive talent.

Look at the last several Cup finals. Last years finals was almost a contest to see who could play worse. And Fleury will make some huge saves, but he also lets in stinkers too. Plus he's $5 mill a year. When Ozzy was on his game in the 08 and 09 playoffs, he wouldn't steal games, but he was surprisingly consistent (he as you know, has a history of stinkers too) and cheap.

Kings are 6th overall in GA and 4th on the PK. Those are great stats. The problem isn't goaltending. It's offense. Barring a complete psychological meltdown, Quick should be good enough for a long playoff run. It's offense, offense, offense. Hopefully he'll start playing better but Penner is not the solution, the Kings need a high speed, high skill sniper. That's not Dustin.


And as I said before, seems like firing the PP coach (Kompon I'm gathering?) could only help.

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04-11-2011, 06:02 PM
  #115
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A) I don't know what Nashville you are talking about but the Preds play a complete different offensive system.

B) Maybe i'm not able to explain my poitn or there is some other missunderstanding.
The whole point of my system is to force the defender out of position. I don't know what you arues are about the defender offers a lane. Maybe you read my system again.

C) My usual point. If the Kings always did everythign right and have a real great coaching staff plus the best players for the system........... where are my Stanley Cups ????

I love you guys who wanna have a change without changing anything
Kurrilino,

A) Again, no they don't, they play the same defensive style, cash in on opportunites, wait for mistakes system that LA plays...they've played that way for years, because that's how they have set up their team.

B) The whole point of any system is to force defenders to make mistakes blow coverages and get out of position, if you take up the middle of the ice, in the neutral zone to gain entry, you have 2 defenders plus the back pressure, your only option at that point is to get it deep, or put it on net from 90 feet away, not very offensive conducing.

You take it up the boards, you have more options, you can, A) rim it and fight for possession, B) carry it down deep as the D will keep you outside, hopefully your linemates can play without the puck and one will drive the net, one will fill the spot you took, and you have the option to throw it on net hope for a rebound, or use the linemate who just filled your vacant ice, to get a better shot, or start a cycle etc....

You will still have back pressure but you won't have the immediate pressure of BOTH defenseman plus the back pressure.

C.) If any team did everything right all the time, they would have cups, no one is saying the Kings do everything right all the time. What I am saying is that for the personnel the Kings have, the system works for them. If their powerplay was any kind of effective, no one would be *****ing and moaning about having to score more goals.

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04-11-2011, 07:17 PM
  #116
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Murray, or "his" system, is not the problem.

As far as I'm concerned, he's done a great job with a young inexperienced team that is spiced up with some second tier vets. Two playoff appearances and, what, 45-46 wins each season? Greatly improved defensive stats. With the current skill and experience level? Don't you guys remember where this team was three or four years ago?

Now we need to develop a couple of offensive threats, from OUR development pool where kids learn to fight and play for each other and within the team structure and we'll be long term threats every year. Personally, I like the development curve and plan. I think we are better off learning to play the defense first structure and then add offense within that structure than the other way around. Much better to add attack from a sound defensive structure than it is to freewheel it and then try to add defense.

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04-11-2011, 07:56 PM
  #117
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Time Machine forward one season.

No more Murray

Schenn Toffoli Vey and Kitsyn on the team along with Kozun and Holloway.

On D we have at least either Voynov or Voynov and Muzzin up with Forbort knocking on the door.

Lewis is now our third line center with a seasoned Clifford on one side and Simmonds on the other.

Our second and third and fourth lines are much improved and we will have Kopitar and William's on our top line.

I like it.

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04-11-2011, 08:20 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
Time Machine forward one season.

No more Murray

Schenn Toffoli Vey and Kitsyn on the team along with Kozun and Holloway.

On D we have at least either Voynov or Voynov and Muzzin up with Forbort knocking on the door.

Lewis is now our third line center with a seasoned Clifford on one side and Simmonds on the other.

Our second and third and fourth lines are much improved and we will have Kopitar and William's on our top line.

I like it.
You really see Toffoli, Vey and Kistysn making the team next year? One or two, yea, I can see that, possibly, but more than likely all 3 will be with Manchester, while Lotkionov and Schenn are with the big club...

And Murray isn't going to be fired, you know that lol.

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04-11-2011, 09:01 PM
  #119
etherialone
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Sorry, I meant skip next season.

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04-11-2011, 09:08 PM
  #120
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Sorry, I meant skip next season.
Oh ok lol, I was gonna say...

Next season...I still don't see all 4 making it, I would say Kistsyn and Toffoli would be the front runners...

Also, do you expect Murray to be fired after the 2011-2012 season? I mean, we know you want him to, but do you really expect it?

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04-11-2011, 09:13 PM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randart View Post
Great to see the give and take guys... enjoyed it emmensely!
Murray's and even Kompoms systems don't really pain me too much! Even the lack of creativity and the predictability... But the psychosis happens with his inaine line changes and lack of chemistry that ensues due to this practice!!!

He (our beloved savior coach) simpley cannot help himself, when in doubt change it up is his credo and first line of defense! This utterly drives me to distraction and frustration. The rest is actually not to bothersome to me and much is commendable to be honest. I don't hate Murray or Kompoms... but there are times I would love to knock some sense into Murray's head about the lines.

What is amazing is that the players never ever critisize this, even after they leave. I call that very classy, of the players who have left.
This doesn't bother me, chemistry first of all is a huge myth, it does happen, but it doesn't happen as often as people think. Sedin Twins have chemistry, Ovechkin and Backstrom, have chemistry, those are the only 2 that come to mind right away. Possibly Getzlaf and Perry... what's the one thing that those duo's have in common? They all have insane talent, drive, compete, etc, they could have chemistry with a brick wall.

Also, the game has changed from a 3 man line, to 5 man units, and you are never going to have complete chemistry in 5 man units, coaches are actually looking for duo's, 2 guys that work well, and a 3rd guy they can plug in and complement each other.

Today's game, all 12 forwards have to be able to work with each other, it's like that way on every team, once you find a duo that works, you don't really see them changed, Kings are no exception, once Murray found a duo that worked, they weren't really changed until they started, not to work.

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04-11-2011, 09:27 PM
  #122
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Oh ok lol, I was gonna say...

Next season...I still don't see all 4 making it, I would say Kistsyn and Toffoli would be the front runners...

Also, do you expect Murray to be fired after the 2011-2012 season? I mean, we know you want him to, but do you really expect it?
I see Kozun and Holloway making it and the potential of Toffi making it sooner rather than later too but to me Vey has just as good a shot. If Kozun, Vey, Toffi, Schenn, Holloway, Kitsyn all make the team we will have a ton more offensive power and speed that is for sure.

If they make the team which should happen by the time my time travel situation went down then TM would clearly be the wrong coach for the team and should be or have been canned by then.

Do I think that we will get rid of TM is an excellent question. My concern is that he might have bought himself another season or at least the start of another season due to Kopi and JW going down and even more so when you consider how many changes our line up should have next season.

I am afraid that DL will site this things as the reason to keep TM around but rather or not I think either situation is any more likely is beyond my ability to really say.

I don't know if we will can TM, just that I think that we clearly should.

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04-11-2011, 09:40 PM
  #123
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I see Kozun and Holloway making it and the potential of Toffi making it sooner rather than later too but to me Vey has just as good a shot. If Kozun, Vey, Toffi, Schenn, Holloway, Kitsyn all make the team we will have a ton more offensive power and speed that is for sure.

If they make the team which should happen by the time my time travel situation went down then TM would clearly be the wrong coach for the team and should be or have been canned by then.

Do I think that we will get rid of TM is an excellent question. My concern is that he might have bought himself another season or at least the start of another season due to Kopi and JW going down and even more so when you consider how many changes our line up should have next season.

I am afraid that DL will site this things as the reason to keep TM around but rather or not I think either situation is any more likely is beyond my ability to really say.

I don't know if we will can TM, just that I think that we clearly should.
If in 2 seasons, we have added Schenn, Lotkionov, Kozun, Vey, Toffoli, Holloway, and Kitsyn, that's a huge turnabout, that means we lose, Smyth, Stoll, Handzus, Ponikarovsky, for sure....then who? Simmonds, Brown, Lewis, Westgarth, Williams? etc...

Regardless, if all six of those make it, wouldn't you think Murray would be the perfect coach, assuming that they need to learn the defensive game first...or the defensive system,

You are talking about 50% of the forwards being 2nd year or rookies, and such, they are going to need a year or two just to learn the defensive system.

If that's the case, you are probably looking at Murray being here the next 3-4 years easily,

That's just assuming that Murray doesn't change his offensive system due to personnel, as I agree, with those 6 up, and Kopitar, Williams, Penner, etc, the system would have to change, I just don't see Kozun going down to bump in the corner to get possession.

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04-11-2011, 10:03 PM
  #124
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Kurrilino,

A) Again, no they don't, they play the same defensive style, cash in on opportunites, wait for mistakes system that LA plays...they've played that way for years, because that's how they have set up their team.

B) The whole point of any system is to force defenders to make mistakes blow coverages and get out of position, if you take up the middle of the ice, in the neutral zone to gain entry, you have 2 defenders plus the back pressure, your only option at that point is to get it deep, or put it on net from 90 feet away, not very offensive conducing.

You take it up the boards, you have more options, you can, A) rim it and fight for possession, B) carry it down deep as the D will keep you outside, hopefully your linemates can play without the puck and one will drive the net, one will fill the spot you took, and you have the option to throw it on net hope for a rebound, or use the linemate who just filled your vacant ice, to get a better shot, or start a cycle etc....

You will still have back pressure but you won't have the immediate pressure of BOTH defenseman plus the back pressure.

C.) If any team did everything right all the time, they would have cups, no one is saying the Kings do everything right all the time. What I am saying is that for the personnel the Kings have, the system works for them. If their powerplay was any kind of effective, no one would be *****ing and moaning about having to score more goals.
For my taste there are too many if's and when's but i enjoy the gameplan discussion with you.

To point B) All of the opition you point at has nothing to do with scoring.
You just put the problem somwhere else.
If you can't win the fight at the board throw into the corner, if you can't win here start cycle etc...
But you still have the main problem........
As soon as you are at the board you limit yourself to a single way to the goal.
From outside to inside. It doesn't matter that you try to pass or to shoot or whatever.
The defense knows exactly where you will go.

I try to explain it again. When i say enter through the middle i'm not talking about the neutral, i'm talking about the o-zone.
As soon as you do that one side of the opponent gets weak because the forechecker has to move to the middle and the defender has to follow the direction to close the gap. That creates a movent direction for 2 players.
You don't even need your defender to penetrate this weak spot.
From now on you can play around. If your opponents decide to crush you you have a lateral motion again and have 3 option.....
- going deep and let the defender follow you
- play cross ice against their motion
- play a pass to the defender who directly passes back to you.

I think you see my point. We are acting instead reacting. We put the pressure on and the opponents has to react. This is when creativity comes in.

For the PP. It is not the sense of powerplay to shoot as much as you can.
You should play smart and creative to have the crystal clear chance.
All that puck throwing, deflecting or hoping for a bad bounce has nothing to do with PP. I'm absolutely convinced that a PP unit with Kopitar,Williams, Penner Johnson and Doughty can score around 30%
Hell, other teams would kill to have just one of our blue liner on the PP.

I am absolutely sure our recent system leads absolutely nowhere.
It is nice to have one of the fewest goals against but to score a goal would help our game a lot.
Just to bring up the Red Wings and the Preds again.
They play our style of defense but mixed with brutal and creative offense.
It is possible........ we just need the change to a 2 way game

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04-11-2011, 10:11 PM
  #125
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On Kozun that is exactly where I see him playing. The guy is tough as nails and will draw a ton of penalties due to his skillset as well.

Also the manner in which each player is brought up will likely differ to varying degrees. I could see Kozun get a call up or two throughout the year before finally sticking. Both Toffi and Vey are likely to spend at least a season in the AHL before making it and Kitsyn too.

The staggering in which the kids are brought along will make it easier for us to bring them onto the big club as well as let us determine exactly how ready they are at the time.

I don't see a scenario where all of them will just step onto the team at once and it is more likely that one or two will take a little longer than another and we have a couple of dark horses who could make it too causing other variables to be brought into play.

What a great situation to be in though.

As to the need to keep TM I would disagree, there are other coaches who can bring kids up/along and even more to the point, by then our core group should have our d system down enough to where it is simply the brand of hockey that we play and furthermore I would think that keeping TM and his 2-1-2 low rotation drop system will be even more antiquated by then. So much so that his being here would be clearly detrimental to our young players development.

Also I can't see us keeping TM two more seasons since he hasn't won the cup for us and that would have been more than an ample amount of time for him to have done so.

Of course, if we win the cup under TM this season then I would clearly be proven wrong and that would of course be a best possible case scenario.

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