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2011 NHL Entry Draft/Other Prospects (All NON-RANGERS Prospect Discussion - Part 2)

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Old
04-13-2011, 08:56 AM
  #326
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
The Debbies were found guilty of circumvention which a big NO NO. Why is that so hard for some people to understand? Those long term contracts are designed to lower the cap hit when the team and player know the player is NOT playing for the full term.

It's in the CBA. Bettman had the full authority to punish any team found guilty of circumvention. The NHL warned teams about these contracts. The PA protected Kovalchuk and Grossman from being punished and they threw Lou under the bus. The PA appealed the NHL's rejection of the first contract and they lost. The arbitrator ruled in favor of the NHL.
Was Marian Hossa's contract not cap circumvention? How about Roberto Luongo? Neither of their teams got punished.

It's ridiculous. The league didn't clarify the regulations, and only because it began to become an issue are the Devils made to pay. They're just being made an example of. I think it's absurd. Either you punish all attempts at cap circumvention, or you punish none.

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04-13-2011, 08:58 AM
  #327
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Was Marian Hossa's contract not cap circumvention? How about Roberto Luongo? Neither of their teams got punished.

It's ridiculous. The league didn't clarify the regulations, and only because it began to become an issue are the Devils made to pay. They're just being made an example of. I think it's absurd. Either you punish all attempts at cap circumvention, or you punish none.
So we should ticket people for driving both 3 and 20 miles above the speed limit then?

The Hossa contract was bad, no doubt. But the Devils one reached a new level of absurdity. 7 years of cap cutting on a 17 year deal? They forced the NHL to make a move.

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04-13-2011, 09:16 AM
  #328
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Originally Posted by Fitzy Duke of NY View Post
So we should ticket people for driving both 3 and 20 miles above the speed limit then?

The Hossa contract was bad, no doubt. But the Devils one reached a new level of absurdity. 7 years of cap cutting on a 17 year deal? They forced the NHL to make a move.
Sorry, Fitzy, but I don't see how that example applies here. Hossa is 32 years old. Just a hunch, but I have a feeling that when he's 42 years old, he's not going to be playing in the NHL. I don't think that the Canucks really expect Roberto Luongo to be eating up 5 million of their cap space in 2021-22.

These are the regulations that the league set up. If they don't like how teams are operating within them, then they should by all means work to change them. But don't punish teams for not breaking any rules, especially when you aren't going to punish other teams for doing the same thing.

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04-13-2011, 09:25 AM
  #329
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Sorry, Fitzy, but I don't see how that example applies here. Hossa is 32 years old. Just a hunch, but I have a feeling that when he's 42 years old, he's not going to be playing in the NHL. I don't think that the Canucks really expect Roberto Luongo to be eating up 5 million of their cap space in 2021-22.

These are the regulations that the league set up. If they don't like how teams are operating within them, then they should by all means work to change them. But don't punish teams for not breaking any rules, especially when you aren't going to punish other teams for doing the same thing.
I'm pretty sure the league put teams on notice after that deal, that these types of contracts would not be tolerated going forward. Fast forward to the Kovalchuk deal which was a clear abomination. The only thing I don't get is why the second contract was allowed. It seems almost as silly as the original.

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04-13-2011, 09:27 AM
  #330
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Well there is no real way of knowing that for sure.

Fact is, they simply couldn't let it go on. It ****ed the devils over, we know, and I didn't see the need for them to be penalized with picks and cash, but something needed to be done and the league knew it.

If you're looking for something unique in the Kovy contract, the final years drafted were at this seasons league minimum. Next step would be 35 year deals with 25 of them at 500k.

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04-13-2011, 09:42 AM
  #331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Sorry, Fitzy, but I don't see how that example applies here. Hossa is 32 years old. Just a hunch, but I have a feeling that when he's 42 years old, he's not going to be playing in the NHL. I don't think that the Canucks really expect Roberto Luongo to be eating up 5 million of their cap space in 2021-22.

These are the regulations that the league set up. If they don't like how teams are operating within them, then they should by all means work to change them. But don't punish teams for not breaking any rules, especially when you aren't going to punish other teams for doing the same thing.
There is a clause in the CBA that attempts to circumvent the cap are illegal and can be punished. I think it's pretty clear to everyone that all these contracts circumvent the cap. The thing is, that the Devils overdid it and the league finally felt that it had to step in and also had good chances to win the arbitration hearing (which it did), which they probably weren't too sure of before (hence only the "investigations"). You can call that unfair, or you could also call it stupid. But to say that they didn't do anything wrong is simply false.

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04-13-2011, 10:20 AM
  #332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jniklast View Post
There is a clause in the CBA that attempts to circumvent the cap are illegal and can be punished. I think it's pretty clear to everyone that all these contracts circumvent the cap. The thing is, that the Devils overdid it and the league finally felt that it had to step in and also had good chances to win the arbitration hearing (which it did), which they probably weren't too sure of before (hence only the "investigations"). You can call that unfair, or you could also call it stupid. But to say that they didn't do anything wrong is simply false.
IMO, I think ALL teams should have been punished but the Devils should have been punished the harshest, by far.

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04-13-2011, 12:34 PM
  #333
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
IMO, I think ALL teams should have been punished but the Devils should have been punished the harshest, by far.
Yeah, I agree. That is what should've been done and I'll admit that they probably shouldn't have punished the Devils alone. But to say the Devils did nothing wrong is ridiculous.

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04-14-2011, 01:07 AM
  #334
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Yeah, I agree. That is what should've been done and I'll admit that they probably shouldn't have punished the Devils alone. But to say the Devils did nothing wrong is ridiculous.
If the other teams that did more or less the same thing didn't get punished, then it can be interpreted that they did nothing wrong.

The Blackhawks won the Stanley Cup last year. They don't win the Cup without Hossa on their team. The Canucks are the best team in the league this year and have an EXCELLENT chance of winning the Cup this year. If they do, it'll have a lot to do with Luongo.

All I'm saying is that there needs to be consistency. If the Devils did something wrong, something deserving of punishment, then the other teams doing the same thing must be punished. Not only were they not punished, but they were allowed to use their own cap circumvention to win a cup and, in the other case, put themselves in great position to win a cup, as well.

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04-14-2011, 06:22 AM
  #335
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Gare Joyce posted a mock draft yesterday

Oilers-RNH
Avs-Larsson
Panthers-Couturier
Debbies-Huberdeau
Fishes-Landeskog
Ottawa-Strome. Should go between #4-#8. Wasn't a top 20 pick before this season
Thrashers-Murphy
Columbus-Hamilton
Boston-McNeill. Feisty player. 2nd line center upside
Wild-Oleksiak
Avs-Baertschi
Canes-Jonas Brodin D
Flames-Jenner
Stars-Puempel

http://insider.espn.go.com/nhl/blog?...aft&id=6346103

The Rangers would have their choice of Armia or Zibanejad.

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04-14-2011, 06:56 AM
  #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Gare Joyce posted a mock draft yesterday

Oilers-RNH
Avs-Larsson
Panthers-Couturier
Debbies-Huberdeau
Fishes-Landeskog
Ottawa-Strome. Should go between #4-#8. Wasn't a top 20 pick before this season
Thrashers-Murphy
Columbus-Hamilton
Boston-McNeill. Feisty player. 2nd line center upside
Wild-Oleksiak
Avs-Baertschi
Canes-Jonas Brodin D
Flames-Jenner
Stars-Puempel

http://insider.espn.go.com/nhl/blog?...aft&id=6346103

The Rangers would have their choice of Armia or Zibanejad.
Dreger mentioned on the NHL Network yesterday that, unlike last year, the #1 pick overall will be in play this year.

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04-14-2011, 07:16 AM
  #337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
If the other teams that did more or less the same thing didn't get punished, then it can be interpreted that they did nothing wrong.

The Blackhawks won the Stanley Cup last year. They don't win the Cup without Hossa on their team. The Canucks are the best team in the league this year and have an EXCELLENT chance of winning the Cup this year. If they do, it'll have a lot to do with Luongo.

All I'm saying is that there needs to be consistency. If the Devils did something wrong, something deserving of punishment, then the other teams doing the same thing must be punished. Not only were they not punished, but they were allowed to use their own cap circumvention to win a cup and, in the other case, put themselves in great position to win a cup, as well.
But the Devils simply overdid it. They made the contract even more obvious cap circumvention, despite the fact that the league was already "investigating" those other contracts. Of course, the others shoudl already have been punished as well, but the league draw the line at that point (42 years or what it is) and consequently allowed the Devils to make a similiar deal, but punished them for their first attempt.

So, yes they were punished and I also agree that it's a bit harsh given that the other teams weren't punished at all, but in the end the Devils got the same result like all the others. Kovalchuk's contract now is very similiar to Hossa's or Luongo's. It helps the Devils just as much as the others do, so they can hardly be complaining about the Hawks winning a Cup with Hossa.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Gare Joyce posted a mock draft yesterday

Oilers-RNH
Avs-Larsson
Panthers-Couturier
Debbies-Huberdeau
Fishes-Landeskog
Ottawa-Strome. Should go between #4-#8. Wasn't a top 20 pick before this season
Thrashers-Murphy
Columbus-Hamilton
Boston-McNeill. Feisty player. 2nd line center upside
Wild-Oleksiak
Avs-Baertschi
Canes-Jonas Brodin D
Flames-Jenner
Stars-Puempel

http://insider.espn.go.com/nhl/blog?...aft&id=6346103

The Rangers would have their choice of Armia or Zibanejad.
I'd gladly take one of them, but I expect at least Zibanejad to be gone at 15.

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Old
04-14-2011, 07:30 AM
  #338
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I can't believe how far Saad is dropping. I think at this point last year there was talk of him being in the top 5 or 7 or so.

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04-14-2011, 09:18 AM
  #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Gare Joyce posted a mock draft yesterday

Oilers-RNH
Avs-Larsson
Panthers-Couturier
Debbies-Huberdeau
Fishes-Landeskog
Ottawa-Strome. Should go between #4-#8. Wasn't a top 20 pick before this season
Thrashers-Murphy
Columbus-Hamilton
Boston-McNeill. Feisty player. 2nd line center upside
Wild-Oleksiak
Avs-Baertschi
Canes-Jonas Brodin D
Flames-Jenner
Stars-Puempel

http://insider.espn.go.com/nhl/blog?...aft&id=6346103

The Rangers would have their choice of Armia or Zibanejad.
I can't see the Thrashers picking Murphy. They've got Enstrom and Buff. They need more offense from the blueline?

I really hope the Islanders don't get Landeskog. That would suck.

Quote:
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I can't believe how far Saad is dropping. I think at this point last year there was talk of him being in the top 5 or 7 or so.
I can. He's not all that.

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04-14-2011, 11:09 AM
  #340
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I wish the Rangers could get Strome. He looks like a stud.

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04-14-2011, 11:13 AM
  #341
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i still prefer the iss rankings.

koko is holding his own in the playoffs. hes been a ppg player all season. considering hes one of the youngest players [9/9/93] in the playoffs and a true rookie in the league, hes still my guy and will be available when we step up.

2011 playoffs 10 5 7 12 8 6

2011 reg season 67 34 42 76 9 28

we are so lacking organizationally a really hockey smart, dynamic skating, space creating, superdangler and pp sniper like this kid. hes the playmaking pivot that would compliment stepan and arty so well.

hes that guy. and more.

http://www.russianprospect.com/alexander-khokhlachev


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04-14-2011, 11:18 AM
  #342
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How does Khoklachev look next to, say, Burmistrov?

And why have I never seen him in the top 10? In fact last I saw Namestnikov was higher.

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04-14-2011, 11:24 AM
  #343
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I can't believe how far Saad is dropping. I think at this point last year there was talk of him being in the top 5 or 7 or so.
It's not really that surprising. Musil was talked about as a high end pick too and has fallen hard. It's just the nature of development at this age -- it can stall or skyrocket very easily. See, e.g., Angelo Esposito.

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04-14-2011, 11:28 AM
  #344
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I really hope the Islanders don't get Landeskog. That would suck.
From all I've read, there are two tiers in the top 10. RNH, Larsson and Landeskog are likely to go 1-2-3, and then you have Couturier, Huberdeau, Strome, Murphy and Hamilton, with Zibanejad and Siemens rounding it out.

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04-14-2011, 11:35 AM
  #345
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Originally Posted by Fitzy Duke of NY View Post
How does Khoklachev look next to, say, Burmistrov?

And why have I never seen him in the top 10? In fact last I saw Namestnikov was higher.
I think Burmistrov is the smarter, more disciplined player, and possibly a better passer technically, but I think Khokhlachev has more skill and talent, as well as creativity. I like both players. I agree with ODC here, I would be fine if the Rangers picked him. But I don't see it happening.

Namestnikov is too small and inconsistent. If he builds up his body and dedicates himself more he can be a second liner in the NHL. He's not a dumb player.

Khokhlachev is definitely the better player of the two, IMO. I think he should be picked between 10-15, but I have a feeling he'll fall to the 20s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jas View Post
From all I've read, there are two tiers in the top 10. RNH, Larsson and Landeskog are likely to go 1-2-3, and then you have Couturier, Huberdeau, Strome, Murphy and Hamilton, with Zibanejad and Siemens rounding it out.
Personally, I think Strome belongs in that first tier. I love that guy.

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04-14-2011, 11:39 AM
  #346
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Originally Posted by Fitzy Duke of NY View Post
How does Khoklachev look next to, say, Burmistrov?

And why have I never seen him in the top 10? In fact last I saw Namestnikov was higher.
iss had him at 15 as of 3/11

hes similar but different.

koko is more dynamic offensively.

burmy is the better 2 way player- by far. good on faceoffs and a very good checker. his understanding of the defensive game was very good before he was drafted. even if he couldnt score, his ability to play the pk and check would be his ticket to the show. hes a very smart defensive player.

hes had a very nice rookie year. i was very high on him last year but i knew he would be gone. hes less of a scorer than he is a distributor.

koko has better offensive skills. high end skills for sure. he shows a willingness to engage in all zones and although no where near burmys level of 2 way play, he isnt a liability in the dzone. thats not his calling card though. scoring and creating is.

anyone who says alex wont compete or wont go into dirty areas or lay along the wall or go to the middle of the ice, doesnt watch him and doesnt know his game. hes not a softy russian an any way, shape or form.

hes exactly what this organization lacks. hes damn smart. hes very young- keep that in mind, hes only 4 weeks older than yakupov is, and hell go in this years draft. hes smart and a fierce competitior- in that way, hes similar to derek stepan but the big difference is his skating.

you watch stepan and hes got quick feet, but hes not fast. hes so smart, he gets the job done but hes lacking that passing gear. kokos got that and more. add to that his ability to create from nothing and finish, and you've got a centerman who can bring exactly what we lack.

and he's here and he wants to play in the nhl. so dont bother with the ''he ownt come over'' stuff. hes here and hes staying here.

as for vlady, hes older. hes been in the league 2 years and he had a weak start to this season. hes generally considered less talented than koko- certainly less dynamic but hes better known and thus, hes been on the radar longer.

woodlief loves koko and i generally agree with what kyle says when it comes to prospects.

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04-14-2011, 11:44 AM
  #347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
iss had him at 15 as of 3/11

hes similar but different.

koko is more dynamic offensively.

burmy is the better 2 way player- by far. good on faceoffs and a very good checker. his understanding of the defensive game was very good before he was drafted. even if he couldnt score, his ability to play the pk and check would be his ticket to the show. hes a very smart defensive player.

hes had a very nice rookie year. i was very high on him last year but i knew he would be gone. hes less of a scorer than he is a distributor.

koko has better offensive skills. high end skills for sure. he shows a willingness to engage in all zones and although no where near burmys level of 2 way play, he isnt a liability in the dzone. thats not his calling card though. scoring and creating is.

anyone who says alex wont compete or wont go into dirty areas or lay along the wall or go to the middle of the ice, doesnt watch him and doesnt know his game. hes not a softy russian an any way, shape or form.

hes exactly what this organization lacks. hes damn smart. hes very young- keep that in mind, hes only 4 weeks older than yakupov is, and hell go in this years draft. hes smart and a fierce competitior- in that way, hes similar to derek stepan but the big difference is his skating.

you watch stepan and hes got quick feet, but hes not fast. hes so smart, he gets the job done but hes lacking that passing gear. kokos got that and more. add to that his ability to create from nothing and finish, and you've got a centerman who can bring exactly what we lack.

and he's here and he wants to play in the nhl. so dont bother with the ''he ownt come over'' stuff. hes here and hes staying here.

as for vlady, hes older. hes been in the league 2 years and he had a weak start to this season. hes generally considered less talented than koko. hes better known and thus, hes been on the radar longer.

woodlief loves koko and i generally agree with what kyle says when it comes to peospects.
He sounds like Claude Giroux. Am I wrong in that very quick assessment?

Very quick, heady player. Will battle for loose pucks. Offensively gifted.

I still think Zia, McNeil or Armia will be the Rangers pick but as always ODC, you're description intrigues me.

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04-14-2011, 11:47 AM
  #348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
iss had him at 15 as of 3/11

hes similar but different.

koko is more dynamic offensively.

burmy is the better 2 way player- by far. good on faceoffs and a very good checker. his understanding of the defensive game was very good before he was drafted. even if he couldnt score, his ability to play the pk and check would be his ticket to the show. hes a very smart defensive player.

hes had a very nice rookie year. i was very high on him last year but i knew he would be gone. hes less of a scorer than he is a distributor.

koko has better offensive skills. high end skills for sure. he shows a willingness to engage in all zones and although no where near burmys level of 2 way play, he isnt a liability in the dzone. thats not his calling card though. scoring and creating is.

anyone who says alex wont compete or wont go into dirty areas or lay along the wall or go to the middle of the ice, doesnt watch him and doesnt know his game. hes not a softy russian an any way, shape or form.

hes exactly what this organization lacks. hes damn smart. hes very young- keep that in mind, hes only 4 weeks older than yakupov is, and hell go in this years draft. hes smart and a fierce competitior- in that way, hes similar to derek stepan but the big difference is his skating.

you watch stepan and hes got quick feet, but hes not fast. hes so smart, he gets the job done but hes lacking that passing gear. kokos got that and more. add to that his ability to create from nothing and finish, and you've got a centerman who can bring exactly what we lack.

and he's here and he wants to play in the nhl. so dont bother with the ''he ownt come over'' stuff. hes here and hes staying here.

as for vlady, hes older. hes been in the league 2 years and he had a weak start to this season. hes generally considered less talented than koko- certainly less dynamic but hes better known and thus, hes been on the radar longer.

woodlief loves koko and i generally agree with what kyle says when it comes to prospects.
Nice writeup, but, after last year's draft, I just don't see the Rangers taking him

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04-14-2011, 11:47 AM
  #349
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At this point, I begin too feel like kids we draft this year won't really have much of an impact until Cally, Dubi, and most of our mid 20's players have probably moved on.

So i'm good with any position for drafting, depending on who the BPA is.

Such a crapshoot of a draft though. We could probably trade down a few spots and still get a decent project.

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04-14-2011, 11:53 AM
  #350
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Originally Posted by Fitzy Duke of NY View Post
At this point, I begin too feel like kids we draft this year won't really have much of an impact until Cally, Dubi, and most of our mid 20's players have probably moved on.

So i'm good with any position for drafting, depending on who the BPA is.

Such a crapshoot of a draft though. We could probably trade down a few spots and still get a decent project.
Well, yeah. We could trade down and draft Khokhlachev.

But why do you say that, about them not making an impact for such a long time? I don't know about you, but I don't see Callahan going anywhere anytime soon, if ever. Dubinsky...maybe, but probably not.

You never know. If you make a good pick, in 2 or 3 years, they could be playing for you. Look at our picks from last year. Thomas will probably be a Ranger in 12-13. Same with Kreider. Possibly Fasth, as well. Certainly, by 13-14.

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