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Round 1 Kings Forum Discussion: San Jose Sharks (2) vs. Los Angeles Kings (7)

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Old
04-13-2011, 09:51 PM
  #376
FrozenKing18
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Originally Posted by jimmy1100 View Post
OK, somebody needs to re-cut that 'Underdogs' video and lay the audio over a bunch of Kings highlights/great moments.

kingsfan28! I love his "Believe" motivation video from last year.

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04-13-2011, 10:03 PM
  #377
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Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... If I had a signature, this would be in it. Along with the quote from that other guy who said the goal Quick allowed from the red line against the Blues "wasn't a soft goal at all".
LOL. Someone said that wasn't a soft goal?

But I think you should take my quote to heart. It leads to more smiles so long as it isn't coupled with too much attachment to desire. Realism be damned. Dukkah be damned. SHARKS BE DAMNED!

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04-13-2011, 11:05 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
More revisionist history, your better than that.

He took the Caps, a team that had been built to win it all and was ready to go when he got there to a conference final his first year and then failed after that until he was fired. That team was stacked.
You want to talk about who that team had on it vs today's Caps. It had Phil HOF Housley, Adam Oates Joey Juneau, Peter Bondra, Dale Hunter, Olaf Kolzig and Bill Ranford, Sergei Gonchar and Esa Tikkanen to name a few.

Then he went to Philly where he again took over for a fired coach getting 48 games in before the end of the season and coached that over loaded with talent team (legion of doom good enough for you?) to the Finals where he was fired immediately afterwards for several reasons, one of which was his inability to adapt his system to a changing game.

You want to bring up Fla? His brother was GM when he get hired as coach. When TM took over the Panthers had just had their cup run not three seasons before so it wasn't like he took some rag tag team of terrible players back to the finals, he took a team that had for the most part recently been to the finals and got them to the first round where they lost again, due to his inability to adapt his coaching style to an ever changing game.

That team had Pavel Bure, Viktor Kozlov, Scott Melanby, Rob Neidermayer, Dan Boyle and Mike Vernon on it to name a few. Bure had a 94 (58/36) point season that year to boot. So yes, once again he came in and took a team that was already turning itself around and managed to have one year of success before FAILING again.

Lets take a look at TM today. He came in and took a solid young Kings team that was beginning to turn itself around or at least poised to do so and helped us build on what we were doing his first year. Next he took us to the playoffs and had a very good year. We made the playoffs this year by the skin of our teeth but we did make it.

TM has done what he does, comes in to a team loaded with good players and helps them to settle down and get them playoff ready. Then he fails which is what we saw last season during the playoffs when he was clearly out coached. I am hopeful for this seasons playoffs but wouldn't be surprised if he leads us to a short run again.


Look, I get it, you like Murray and think he is a great coach but really, there is no need to come in and re-write history in an attempt to try and prove him to be one. You know that there are tons of us nerds around here who actually remember most of what happened in the NHL for the past 30 years or more who will just go back and post what actually happened.

If you want to debate coaching systems/style's then lets go for that, at least then we will have something more subjective to discuss and it might even be more fun.
TG, EDIT heh

Not gonna argue the merits of an old Phil Housley, etc, Joe Juneau and Dale Hunter are not the staples of a "stacked" team ffs.

Definitely not gonna argue FLA and Bure, Mellanby, and Boyle, who wasn't even Boyle at that point in time.

You want to talk about revisionist history, and then you bring up names like they were stacked teams when in fact the only team that was close was Philadelphia to being stacked, but then, they had slight goaltending problems, but still, one line means stacked.

It's not that I like Murray, hell, I really don't give a damn about him, I don't think he's a great coach either, I think he has done a good job.

I understand what Murray is doing, that's the difference. I understand why he has to play a 2-1-2 low rotation, I understand what the hell a 2-1-2 low rotation is, I understand that the Kings do not have the speed on the wings to blow by the neutral zone and enter the zone with speed and back the D off, I understand that for the Kings to get and sustain any pressure they have to play physical, mean, gritty, that they have to wear down the D and wait for and capitalize on mistakes. I understand why Murray doesn't send the freaking weakside D down below the freaking dots on a cycle ffs.

Do I think things can be better, absolutely, I think the PP needs a jolt, a change, fire Kompon. I think with a potent power play no one is talking about Murray's coaching.

I think the 2-1-2 low rotation is a solid gameplan that when the Kings actually execute it, they shut teams down, I also think that moving it from corner to corner would benefit the team, and moving the point of attack, but maybe that's just me listening to Jimmy Fox too much.

What I don't understand is people wanting to crucify the guy who has led the team to the playoffs 2 years in a row like it's something some Joe Blow can do off the street.


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04-13-2011, 11:07 PM
  #379
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Originally Posted by JDM View Post
LOL. Someone said that wasn't a soft goal?

But I think you should take my quote to heart. It leads to more smiles so long as it isn't coupled with too much attachment to desire. Realism be damned. Dukkah be damned. SHARKS BE DAMNED!
Yea, that would have been me. What JT failed to mention and still doesn't get, is that the puck soared on Quick, the puck from stick to net, shifted, moved, soared, on Quick, in the high slot of all places, it's not like the puck went from stick to net on a straight freaking line.

That makes it a fluke goal, not a soft goal, but hey, we don't let biases get in the way here at HF do we?

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04-13-2011, 11:43 PM
  #380
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Yea, that would have been me. What JT failed to mention and still doesn't get, is that the puck soared on Quick, the puck from stick to net, shifted, moved, soared, on Quick, in the high slot of all places, it's not like the puck went from stick to net on a straight freaking line.

That makes it a fluke goal, not a soft goal, but hey, we don't let biases get in the way here at HF do we?
It being a Flukey goal doesn't negate it being soft. Not mutually exclusive. I don't care if you vomit in ur mask as the puck is shot, you let one in from the red line and it's a soft goal. Ask Tom salo how thinking of it as a Flukey kind of goal worked out for him.

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04-13-2011, 11:57 PM
  #381
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It being a Flukey goal doesn't negate it being soft. Not mutually exclusive. I don't care if you vomit in ur mask as the puck is shot, you let one in from the red line and it's a soft goal. Ask Tom salo how thinking of it as a Flukey kind of goal worked out for him.
LOL never said they were mutually exclusive, but you can draw a line between flukey and soft.

Soft goal is one you should stop 100 out of 100 times

Fluke goal is one that happens 1 out of a 100 times.

This was simply a fluke goal that everyone that has an anti-quick basis jumped on without understanding what actually happened on the shot and refusing to realize how it happened.

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04-14-2011, 01:36 AM
  #382
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
JT,

Not gonna argue the merits of an old Phil Housley, etc, Joe Juneau and Dale Hunter are not the staples of a "stacked" team ffs.

Definitely not gonna argue FLA and Bure, Mellanby, and Boyle, who wasn't even Boyle at that point in time.

You want to talk about revisionist history, and then you bring up names like they were stacked teams when in fact the only team that was close was Philadelphia to being stacked, but then, they had slight goaltending problems, but still, one line means stacked.

It's not that I like Murray, hell, I really don't give a damn about him, I don't think he's a great coach either, I think he has done a good job.

I understand what Murray is doing, that's the difference. I understand why he has to play a 2-1-2 low rotation, I understand what the hell a 2-1-2 low rotation is, I understand that the Kings do not have the speed on the wings to blow by the neutral zone and enter the zone with speed and back the D off, I understand that for the Kings to get and sustain any pressure they have to play physical, mean, gritty, that they have to wear down the D and wait for and capitalize on mistakes. I understand why Murray doesn't send the freaking weakside D down below the freaking dots on a cycle ffs.

Do I think things can be better, absolutely, I think the PP needs a jolt, a change, fire Kompon. I think with a potent power play no one is talking about Murray's coaching.

I think the 2-1-2 low rotation is a solid gameplan that when the Kings actually execute it, they shut teams down, I also think that moving it from corner to corner would benefit the team, and moving the point of attack, but maybe that's just me listening to Jimmy Fox too much.

What I don't understand is people wanting to crucify the guy who has led the team to the playoffs 2 years in a row like it's something some Joe Blow can do off the street.


Hmmm. I suppose this could be an issue of the two of us having polar opposite understandings of what a stacked team would be, that would make the most sense. I mean you talk as if you don't think that Wash was a heavy favorite to win it all the year TM took them the farthest that he took them which is fine but you would be the only person including most all NHL pundits at that time who didn't call the Caps favorites.

As to the stacked debate well I guess I see them as stacked due to their top line being one of the best in the league at the time. Bondra's totals that year were 52g26a for 78 points, Adam Oates (the 5 time all star) had 18g58a for 76 points, Joey Juneau with 18g34a for 52 points up front and Calle Johansen (15g20a) a 34 year old Phil Housley (still in his prime) (6g25a) and Sergei Gonchar (5g18a).

So you don't think that one of the Caps top line's of all time including Ove's era is stacked or that having one already in Hall of Famer in PH on d along with Calle Johansen and the 5 time (to date) All Star in Sergei Gonchar is stacked, not to mention their top of league goaltending duo that season?

Um alright.

Philly had "one line", really?

O.K. so here is that one line, John LeClair 50g47a 97p, Eric Lindros (only played 52games) 32g47a 79p, Rod Brind'Amour 27g32a 59p. One line.

Next line, Mikael Renberg 22g37a 59p, Trent Klatt 24g21a 45p Dale Hawerchuk 12g22a 34p (Hall of Famer DH only played 51 games that season)

Lets take a look at their D It starts with Hall Of Famer Paul Coffey then multiple all star Eric Desjardins then Janne Niinimaa who had 4g and 40a (44pts) that season along with Peter Svboda giving them a well stacked top four D no matter how you look at it.

In nets they had Vezina award winning Con Smythe award winning Hextal who's 2.13 gaa was among the tops in the league that season and his back up was Garth Snow who was also still a solid go to guy.


If you change your mind about not wanting to argue that he was given a solid team who was 3sns removed from a cup finals then let me know because I am game to do so.

I don't hate TM and in fact have more often than not given him his credit and if this was pre 2004 I would be as happy with him as a coach as anyone else. The thing is that it isn't 2004 and the rules have changed significantly making most coaches change up the manner in which they use the 2-1-2 which by the way, is only a portion of a system and not supposed to be an entire offencive scheme but that is another debate.

TM is a one trick pony, that is my problem with him mostly and then there is the way he avoids accountability for his catastrophic mistakes and finds a way to hide behind the team but then is all too ready to blame individual players or the fans or the ice or anything else that comes along in order to try and make himself look better in my opinion.

It got him in trouble in Phi with the *choking* comments and cost him his job. He made disparaging remarks after the booing incident and looked pretty dang bad as a result and as a head coach in the NHL if he is going to go that route then he had better hold himself to the same level of accountability and do so publicly as well.

The silly thing about this debate is that for once in his less than stellar career I actually think that in our present situation that TM is one of the better coaches for the job at hand. We need to play a slow tempo sit tight D style without mistake in order to move on imo. He is just the ancient average at best coach for the job.

Oh and I haven't revised any fact's to support my position once in this debate sjmay, but it seems like you have on more than one occasion and that is why I mentioned your propensity for using "revisionist history".

You did it a few times when you wrote about Tippett alone, no biggie but felt it should be cleared up.

Oh and you should amend the "JT" part of your post, I can live with the mistake and actually laughed at it but JT has a stronger opinion about me than I do of him and well, it isn't fair to him (JT) to besmirch his good name in such a manner.

You can call me Jackanape, TG, Kook, Loser, 2short (which I wasn't, I was bang on again Zad ) or anything else but not another poster, especially not the illustrious JT.


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04-14-2011, 02:13 AM
  #383
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
Hmmm. I suppose this could be an issue of the two of us having polar opposite understandings of what a stacked team would be, that would make the most sense. I mean you talk as if you don't think that Wash was a heavy favorite to win it all the year TM took them the farthest that he took them which is fine but you would be the only person including most all NHL pundits at that time who didn't call the Caps favorites.

As to the stacked debate well I guess I see them as stacked due to their top line being one of the best in the league at the time. Bondra's totals that year were 52g26a for 78 points, Adam Oates (the 5 time all star) had 18g58a for 76 points, Joey Juneau with 18g34a for 52 points up front and Calle Johansen (15g20a) a 34 year old Phil Housley (still in his prime) (6g25a) and Sergei Gonchar (5g18a).

So you don't think that one of the Caps top line's of all time including Ove's era is stacked or that having one already in Hall of Famer in PH on d along with Calle Johansen and the 5 time (to date) All Star in Sergei Gonchar is stacked, not to mention their top of league goaltending duo that season?

Um alright.

Philly had "one line", really?

O.K. so here is that one line, John LeClair 50g47a 97p, Eric Lindros (only played 52games) 32g47a 79p, Rod Brind'Amour 27g32a 59p. One line.

Next line, Mikael Renberg 22g37a 59p, Trent Klatt 24g21a 45p Dale Hawerchuk 12g22a 34p (Hall of Famer DH only played 51 games that season)

Lets take a look at their D It starts with Hall Of Famer Paul Coffey then multiple all star Eric Desjardins then Janne Niinimaa who had 4g and 40a (44pts) that season along with Peter Svboda giving them a well stacked top four D no matter how you look at it.

In nets they had Vezina award winning Con Smythe award winning Hextal who's 2.13 gaa was among the tops in the league that season and his back up was Garth Snow who was also still a solid go to guy.


If you change your mind about not wanting to argue that he was given a solid team who was 3sns removed from a cup finals then let me know because I am game to do so.

I don't hate TM and in fact have more often than not given him his credit and if this was pre 2004 I would be as happy with him as a coach as anyone else. The thing is that it isn't 2004 and the rules have changed significantly making most coaches change up the manner in which they use the 2-1-2 which by the way, is only a portion of a system and not supposed to be an entire offencive scheme but that is another debate.

TM is a one trick pony, that is my problem with him mostly and then there is the way he ovoids accountability for his catastrophic mistakes and finds a way to hide behind the team but then is all too ready to blame individual players or the fans or the ice or anything else that comes along in order to try and make him look better in my opinion.

It got him in trouble in Phi with the *choking* comments and cost him his job. He made disparaging remarks after the booing incident and looked pretty dang bad as a result and as a head coach in the NHL if he is going to go that route then he had better hold himself to the same level of accountability and do so publicly as well.

The silly thing about this debate is that for once in his less than stellar career I actually think that in our present situation that TM is one of the better coaches for the job at hand. We need to play a slow tempo sit tight D style without mistake in order to move on imo. He is just the ancient average at best coach for the job.

Oh and I haven't revised any fact's to support my position once in this debate sjmay, but it seems like you have on more than one occasion and that is why I mentioned your propensity for using "revisionist history".

You did it a few times when you wrote about Tippett alone, no biggie but felt it should be cleared up.

Oh and you should amend the "JT" part of your post, I can live with the mistake and actually laughed at it but JT has a stronger opinion about me than I do of him and well, it isn't fair to him (JT) to besmirch his good name in such a manner.

You can call me Jackanape, TG, Kook, Loser, 2short (which I wasn't, I was bang on again Zad ) or anything else but not another poster, especially not the illustrious JT.
LOL sorry about that, will change that,

Anyways, TG, how's that

Back to TM in Washington, he took over in 89-90, he then won 2 playoff series, in 91-92, the highest regular season point total of 98, he didn't have Adam Oates, Joe Juneau, or Esa Tikkanen, not sure where you got that, he had Mike Ridley, Al Iafrate, Don Beaupre, Olaf Kolzig, Dino Ciccarelli, Michal Pivonka, Peter Bondra, etc. He had 1 player in the top 30 in scoring, 3 in the top 50, and I would easily call Pittsburgh with Lemieux and Stevens, LA with Gretzky and Robitaille, or NYR with Messier, Leetch, better contenders...

I think you got your years mixed up there, Oates didn't join the Caps until 96-97.

As far as Philadelphia, first year, shortened season, won 2 playoff rounds, not sure if we count that, let's go to 95-96, I concede that was a stacked team, didn't realize Hextall was still around to be honest, in 96-97, again, didn't realize Hextall was still around, they won 45 games, lost to the Cup finalist Florida, but not sure if you are completely serious when bringing up Trent Klatt in a discussion about stacked teams, especially when their where 32 players that scored 30 or more goals, PHI had 2 of them, 3 of the top 50 goal scorers that year, and Klatt wasn't one of them, in fact he ranks 66th in the NHL.

And here we come to Florida, the team on the rise, right? In 95-96 they went to the Cup Final with players like Ray Sheppard, Ed Jovanovski, Rob Neidermayer, John Van Biesbrouck, David Nemirovsky (personal bias on that one, the guys a nutbar), Scott Mellanby, Stu Barnes, Jason Woolley, and Martin Straka.

When Murray gets hired in 98-99, they have players like a 38 year old Dino Ciccarelli, a declining Rob Neidermayer, Ed Jovanovski, Mark Parrish, Pavel Bure (injured) Viktor Kozlov, Ray Whintey, and Sean Burke in net, no playoffs,

In 99-00, they make the playoffs, swept by NJ, with players such as Boyle, ( all of 3 points), Neidermayer, all of33 points, Ray Sheppard, 20 points, Parrish 44 points, Mellanby, 46 points, Spacek, 36 points, Bure, 94 points,Kozlov, 70 points, Whitney, 71 points, sounds like a one line team to me that went up against a defensive nightmare in NJ, not necessarily stacked.

And no, he wasn't given a solid team in Florida sorry, he was given a mediocre team who needed more secondary scoring than the 26 goals of Mark Parrish and 18 goals of Scott Mellanby, and 10 goals of Ray Sheppard and Rob Neidermayer, Parrish is the only one you can claim provided adequate scoring in 26 goals, finished 44th in the league in goals, Mellanby finished 110th, guys like Mike Eastwood andTrevor Letowski finished higher, then Sheppard and Neidermayer, 229th, and 235th,

Not really the makings of a team on the rise.....right?


As far as Murray and his comments, who knows, did his players choke, pretty sure a lot of Philly fans believe so, and as far as the booing, that wasn't disparaging, it was vague and if you have a bias either way you can twist what he said....

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04-14-2011, 02:20 AM
  #384
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BTW, TG,

I love the back and forth on this, talking hockey is great, any time, especially the merits of what constitutes a stacked team in a given year...

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04-14-2011, 02:21 AM
  #385
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
I mean you talk as if you don't think that Wash was a heavy favorite to win it all the year TM took them the farthest that he took them which is fine but you would be the only person including most all NHL pundits at that time who didn't call the Caps favorites.

As to the stacked debate well I guess I see them as stacked due to their top line being one of the best in the league at the time. Bondra's totals that year were 52g26a for 78 points, Adam Oates (the 5 time all star) had 18g58a for 76 points, Joey Juneau with 18g34a for 52 points up front and Calle Johansen (15g20a) a 34 year old Phil Housley (still in his prime) (6g25a) and Sergei Gonchar (5g18a).

So you don't think that one of the Caps top line's of all time including Ove's era is stacked or that having one already in Hall of Famer in PH on d along with Calle Johansen and the 5 time (to date) All Star in Sergei Gonchar is stacked, not to mention their top of league goaltending duo that season?
Just for reference, the team you mention here, is from 1997-1998, the coach is Ron Wilson, and they lost in the Cup Finals to Detroit.

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04-14-2011, 02:25 AM
  #386
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as a socal native, i'm here in norcal surrounded by Sharks fans. A series win by the Kings would be that much sweeter. I know the Kings have it in them....my money is on Simmonds to come up big in a few games.

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04-14-2011, 02:39 AM
  #387
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
Hmmm. I suppose this could be an issue of the two of us having polar opposite understandings of what a stacked team would be, that would make the most sense. I mean you talk as if you don't think that Wash was a heavy favorite to win it all the year TM took them the farthest that he took them which is fine but you would be the only person including most all NHL pundits at that time who didn't call the Caps favorites.

As to the stacked debate well I guess I see them as stacked due to their top line being one of the best in the league at the time. Bondra's totals that year were 52g26a for 78 points, Adam Oates (the 5 time all star) had 18g58a for 76 points, Joey Juneau with 18g34a for 52 points up front and Calle Johansen (15g20a) a 34 year old Phil Housley (still in his prime) (6g25a) and Sergei Gonchar (5g18a).

So you don't think that one of the Caps top line's of all time including Ove's era is stacked or that having one already in Hall of Famer in PH on d along with Calle Johansen and the 5 time (to date) All Star in Sergei Gonchar is stacked, not to mention their top of league goaltending duo that season?

Um alright.
And while I am on the topic of this "great" Caps team, they had 3 players in the top 100 goal scorers, 2 players in the top 100 point getters,

IF they were the heavy favorites over NJ who had 107 points, Dallas who had 109, Detroit who had a 103, Colorado who had 95, even Pittsburgh who had 98 points, that's some heavy **** they are smoking,

We are talking about this, all players in prime

NJ team who had - Scott Neidermayer, Bill Guerin, Scott Stevens, Jason Arnott, Dave Andreychuk, Bobby Holik, Brian Rolston, Jay Pandolfo, Ken Daneyko, Patrick Elias, Peter Zezel, and Martin Brodeur.

Dallas team who had - Joe Nieuwendyk, Derian Hatcher, Craig Muni, Ed Belfour, Jere Lehtinen, Jaime Langenbrunner, Mike Keane, Benoit Hogue, Pat Verbeek, Brian Skrudland, Mike Modano, Darryl Sydor, Grant Marshall, and Sergei Zubov

Detroit team who had - Sergei Fedorov, Nik Lidstrom, Brendan Shanahan, Brent Gilchrist, Kris Draper, Chris Osgood, Kirk Maltby, Aaron Ward, Vyacheslav Kozlov, Darren McCarty, Mike Knuble, Martin Lapointe, Tomas Holmstrom, Mathieu Dandendault, and Steve Yzerman

Colorado who had - Aaron Miller, Sandis Ozlonish, Valeri Kamensky, Adam Deadmarsh, Joe Sakic, Peter Forsberg, Adam Foote, Claude Lemieux, Tom Fitzgerald, Jon Klemm, Uwe Kripp, Mike Ricci, Stephan Yelle, and Patrick Roy

Pittsburgh - Darius Kaspairitus, Kevin Hatcher, Greg Johnson, Tom Barrasso, Stu Barnes, Rob Brown, Fredrik Olausson, Ron Francis, Ian Moran, Ed Olczyk, Jaromir Jagr, Robert Lang, Martin Straka, Tyler Wright...

Having listed those out, Pittsburgh is a stretch there, but to say Washington was a heavy favorite needs a bit of reality thrown in there.

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04-14-2011, 02:43 AM
  #388
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just wanted to wish you guys good luck tomorrow night and in the series. Also, I'm glad our fans get along so well on the main playoff board!

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04-14-2011, 02:46 AM
  #389
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just wanted to wish you guys good luck tomorrow night and in the series. Also, I'm glad our fans get along so well on the main playoff board!
SJ fans have always seemed classy to me. There isnt that arrogance there that another unnamed california team seems to have.

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04-14-2011, 03:49 AM
  #390
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as a socal native, i'm here in norcal surrounded by Sharks fans. A series win by the Kings would be that much sweeter. I know the Kings have it in them....my money is on Simmonds to come up big in a few games.
I'm in Nor Cal too, so I definitely know what you mean. I fully intend on wearing my jersey all day tomorrow... I usually generate some dirty looks and can only imagine how much more I'll get as this series goes on. They're mostly pretty cool, but I'd be glaring daggers at anyone in a playoff opponent's sweater walking around LA, so I get it. lol I'm glad I'm not alone up here!

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04-14-2011, 01:42 PM
  #391
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
Just for reference, the team you mention here, is from 1997-1998, the coach is Ron Wilson, and they lost in the Cup Finals to Detroit.
The hockey db I use keeps giving me the same players for both years, I think it is because during that first season TM got the job from his older brother midway through but it still shouldn't happen and my apologies.

So lets look at the correct line up for TM's good season in Was.

First, your gonna want to concede this point imo, their D was dead on amazing that year.

A 22yo Kevin Hatcher 54p, 25yo Scott Stevens 40p, 22yo Calle Johansen 39p, 32yo Rod Langway and a young Bob Rouse to boot.

That is two legit HOF in Stevens and Langway both in their prime along with Hatcher and Johansen. If that isn't a stacked D then we are just going to be miles apart.

Up front you mention Ciccarelli who turned 29 during that season and did score 41g38a for 78 points, 28/29 wasn't close to over for DC at all. A 26 turned 27 Geof Courtenal who may be a hack but he did pot 35g39a for 74 pts and Ridley who was a solid 26 yo that added 30g43a for 73pts.

This is not only a very good 1st line but I would say that even aside from their offencive production that anytime you have DC on your first line you are getting a superstar of a pain in the tail to play against as well.

Not to mention that behind that line you had Dale Hunter in his prime with 23g39a for 62 points along with his 233 penalty minutes. He is the type of player that I hope Cliffy becomes one day (without the dirty stuff) and was a star in his time. His line with Pivonka and Miller was a solid 2nd line if not a pretty solid 1st line in its day (though a season later Miller slowed with injury).

In net you had Beaupre (who finished 9th in the league that year) and then Mike Liut as a veteran back up with a 2.13 gaa, better than average by far.


The Flyer's is where TM simply beefed the pup no ifs ands or buts about it. He simply did. He took a heavily talent ladened team and in 3 seasons got them to the finals where he messed up so badly that they fired him for it. In 3 seasons he took that uber talented team pretty close to the cup twice and did such a bad job at everything else that he was fired for it.

We can agree to disagree on this team but it was heavily talented.

In FLA he got a team that had just been to the finals in 96 and in 98 they weren't so far removed from the experience that they weren't still a solid team. The roster when TM took over wasn't markedly different then the one that went to the finals so again, we can disagree on the caliber of talent but the results speak for themselves.

I do want to say that the team that went to the finals was just about the same team that TM took over. Rob Neidermeyer was 23 yo, Whitney 26, Kozlov 23, Dvorak and Parish both 21 I mean none of them were in decline but young solid and on the rise. Bure was injured but still had 13 goals in 11 games and came back strong. Dan Boyle was always Dan Boyle, bis offence took another season to develop but his D was solid, Hedican was great, Jovocop was great until he left, Svehla and Spacek were both nails back then and they had a great tandem in goal with Sean Burke 2.66 and Kirk McClean 2.74 gaa. Not a world beater maybe, but a solid team still fresh from a cup run is a fair statement.

TM got in and really didn't do anything with a team that had been to the finals a couple of seasons earlier.


There is another point that has been brought up that I would like to see you respond to and to me it is the single biggest problem with TM's coaching and that is that any successes he has had was prior to the lock out where several major rule changes took place that seem to have made it impossible for him to adapt and compete.

The truth is that the game has passed him by imo and really he hasn't done anything special with us past instilling a defence first mindset/style. Beyond that he is constantly out coached rigid automaton who like I have said before refuses to take the blame for his shortcomings while being all too ready to point the finger at others imo and that is a character flaw that has a trickle down effect.


Last edited by etherialone: 04-14-2011 at 01:54 PM.
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04-14-2011, 05:18 PM
  #392
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
The hockey db I use keeps giving me the same players for both years, I think it is because during that first season TM got the job from his older brother midway through but it still shouldn't happen and my apologies.

So lets look at the correct line up for TM's good season in Was.

First, your gonna want to concede this point imo, their D was dead on amazing that year.

A 22yo Kevin Hatcher 54p, 25yo Scott Stevens 40p, 22yo Calle Johansen 39p, 32yo Rod Langway and a young Bob Rouse to boot.

That is two legit HOF in Stevens and Langway both in their prime along with Hatcher and Johansen. If that isn't a stacked D then we are just going to be miles apart.

Up front you mention Ciccarelli who turned 29 during that season and did score 41g38a for 78 points, 28/29 wasn't close to over for DC at all. A 26 turned 27 Geof Courtenal who may be a hack but he did pot 35g39a for 74 pts and Ridley who was a solid 26 yo that added 30g43a for 73pts.

This is not only a very good 1st line but I would say that even aside from their offencive production that anytime you have DC on your first line you are getting a superstar of a pain in the tail to play against as well.

Not to mention that behind that line you had Dale Hunter in his prime with 23g39a for 62 points along with his 233 penalty minutes. He is the type of player that I hope Cliffy becomes one day (without the dirty stuff) and was a star in his time. His line with Pivonka and Miller was a solid 2nd line if not a pretty solid 1st line in its day (though a season later Miller slowed with injury).

In net you had Beaupre (who finished 9th in the league that year) and then Mike Liut as a veteran back up with a 2.13 gaa, better than average by far.


The Flyer's is where TM simply beefed the pup no ifs ands or buts about it. He simply did. He took a heavily talent ladened team and in 3 seasons got them to the finals where he messed up so badly that they fired him for it. In 3 seasons he took that uber talented team pretty close to the cup twice and did such a bad job at everything else that he was fired for it.

We can agree to disagree on this team but it was heavily talented.

In FLA he got a team that had just been to the finals in 96 and in 98 they weren't so far removed from the experience that they weren't still a solid team. The roster when TM took over wasn't markedly different then the one that went to the finals so again, we can disagree on the caliber of talent but the results speak for themselves.

I do want to say that the team that went to the finals was just about the same team that TM took over. Rob Neidermeyer was 23 yo, Whitney 26, Kozlov 23, Dvorak and Parish both 21 I mean none of them were in decline but young solid and on the rise. Bure was injured but still had 13 goals in 11 games and came back strong. Dan Boyle was always Dan Boyle, bis offence took another season to develop but his D was solid, Hedican was great, Jovocop was great until he left, Svehla and Spacek were both nails back then and they had a great tandem in goal with Sean Burke 2.66 and Kirk McClean 2.74 gaa. Not a world beater maybe, but a solid team still fresh from a cup run is a fair statement.

TM got in and really didn't do anything with a team that had been to the finals a couple of seasons earlier.


There is another point that has been brought up that I would like to see you respond to and to me it is the single biggest problem with TM's coaching and that is that any successes he has had was prior to the lock out where several major rule changes took place that seem to have made it impossible for him to adapt and compete.

The truth is that the game has passed him by imo and really he hasn't done anything special with us past instilling a defence first mindset/style. Beyond that he is constantly out coached rigid automaton who like I have said before refuses to take the blame for his shortcomings while being all too ready to point the finger at others imo and that is a character flaw that has a trickle down effect.
Quick point to the Caps team, the teams I listed that were heavy favorites, were deeper, and simply better, while having Dino Ciccarelli on your first line was good, having a Shanahan, or Stevens of that year, or Robitaille, etc, was simply better.

Philadelphia, I believe I conceded that point about a stacked team.

Florida, again, I believe other teams, were deeper and better that year.

Now onto the other point, about the lockout, and how the game has simply passed him by, I don't agree, I don't think 3 seasons, where 2 of them he has made the playoffs with an extremely young team, is A.) enough to judge that on, and B.) he has made the playoffs 2 out of three years, with a very young team, if the game has truly passed him by, he wouldn't be making the playoffs .667% of the time.

Tell me this, if the Kings were at any rate successful on the power play and didn't show the exuberance of youth in the mental toughness and preparedness of the game, would anyone really be *****ing about Terry Murray? You would easily be adding on 7-9 more wins just with a successful powerplay and a mentally tougher team, and that's a minimum 112 point season, ok, maybe I shot too high there, we can even say 4-6 games, and that's still a 106 point season in one of the toughest divisions in the history of the league.

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04-14-2011, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
Quick point to the Caps team, the teams I listed that were heavy favorites, were deeper, and simply better, while having Dino Ciccarelli on your first line was good, having a Shanahan, or Stevens of that year, or Robitaille, etc, was simply better.

Philadelphia, I believe I conceded that point about a stacked team.

Florida, again, I believe other teams, were deeper and better that year.

Now onto the other point, about the lockout, and how the game has simply passed him by, I don't agree, I don't think 3 seasons, where 2 of them he has made the playoffs with an extremely young team, is A.) enough to judge that on, and B.) he has made the playoffs 2 out of three years, with a very young team, if the game has truly passed him by, he wouldn't be making the playoffs .667% of the time.

Tell me this, if the Kings were at any rate successful on the power play and didn't show the exuberance of youth in the mental toughness and preparedness of the game, would anyone really be *****ing about Terry Murray? You would easily be adding on 7-9 more wins just with a successful powerplay and a mentally tougher team, and that's a minimum 112 point season, ok, maybe I shot too high there, we can even say 4-6 games, and that's still a 106 point season in one of the toughest divisions in the history of the league.
That is a fair point that will need some actual consideration (would I still be on TM's back if we were more successful on the PP) but my top of the head answer is yes due to the fact that TM is the final answer in all things that happen on the ice and of course the fact that he has lost my respect in the character dept.

But those two points are less factual based in where they come from and more fan or emotionally based and as such I will take the time to consider your point. It wasn't TM's fault that we lost Harpo and all that he brought to the team not only in our defencive abilities but also in how effective he was in getting the most out of the offencive nature of our more mobile young Dmen.

I will also give you something that I am struggling with on TM. I have said before that the proudest moment of my time playing hockey was when I was an Ottawa 67 under Brian Kilrea. If you take a look at TM's career in total you will see that he spent some time with the 67's too and some of my bias, though I try not to let it comes from that time.

It does seem like we are now getting down to the nitty gritty on TM though that we are throwing his coaching record prior to his time with us away we can get a true look at the pro's and con's of TM as a coach.

As I consider your question I have one for you, TM was known as a trap slow tempo coach prior to the lockout, with the elimination of the center ice red line (or amendment of it) coupled with his preference for over utilizing neutral zone scheme's in an attempt to circumvent the trap ruling do you still think that he is capable of leading a team to the cup in this up tempo offence oriented league as it is today?

TM is imo picking scraps up off the floor in the manner that he coaches the team today which much like Trotz and other's who still use these dated systems is going to be effective enough during the regular season but unless he has himself, his staff and his team ready to pick up the tempo during the playoffs isn't going to get him close to the cup unless he gets extremely lucky.

There were two penalties taken over the past week's worth of games this season that sat directly on TM's shoulders, both bench minors with one of them being a too many men on the ice penalty on the powerplay (I believe it is on the PP but my memory is shakey. I am on the road and not getting more than two or three hours sleep at night). Those types of penalties are really telling on how well a coach is doing and at this time of year and this being his third season those sort of things are almost inexcusable.

Now to your question.....

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04-15-2011, 02:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post

As I consider your question I have one for you, TM was known as a trap slow tempo coach prior to the lockout, with the elimination of the center ice red line (or amendment of it) coupled with his preference for over utilizing neutral zone scheme's in an attempt to circumvent the trap ruling do you still think that he is capable of leading a team to the cup in this up tempo offence oriented league as it is today?
I think his system fits his personnel to be honest. It's hard to say that "he can't change with the times" or that "his system is outdated" when you see what the Kings have in personnel.

It very well be that TM and DL met and TM said look, this is my system, I want guys like this....

It could very well be that DL got big power guys because DL likes big power guys.

Fact is, if you tried to open it up and play a neutral zone puck possession game like Detroit did, LA would lose and lose big, they don't have the "talent" to do that. They have guys that can carry the puck, but once they hit traffic, they would lose it, so they can regroup or chip it, the system dictates they chip it.

Once we get past guys like Handzus, Smyth, Poniarkovsky, etc, and we get the Schenn, Lotkionov, Moller, Toffoli, Vey, Weal, Kozun, let's see if he changes then.

THEN we will be able to tell if the game has passed him by.

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04-15-2011, 02:11 AM
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Fair enough

Lets pick this back up after the playoffs

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04-15-2011, 02:13 AM
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Fair enough

Lets pick this back up after the playoffs
Sounds good..

BTW, where are you based out of, or located? I know you do a lot of scouting etc, just curious.

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04-15-2011, 02:22 AM
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We drew blood... That is very important, even in a loss. We know we can beat them now. Just have to go our there and follow through. GO KINGS!

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04-15-2011, 02:26 AM
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Based out of Twillingate Isl NewFoundland but am on the road (have been for over two months now) and will be for another month and a half. Not all hockey stuff by the way, my primary work is as a traveling Mu/luthier. I balance all three the best that I can and take work whenever/where ever I can. That said I did just about a week ago get passed over by an NHL club for an advanced scout position.

A little of my not willing to bend and allot of their wanting more than I can give seasoned with a bit of my lacking some tech skills and there you go. It was great to be considered so closely but I don't know what I would have done if I had actually been offered the job.

Thank goodness there is still room for freelance workers like me or I would be in my woodshack for good!

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04-15-2011, 02:33 AM
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Based out of Twillingate Isl NewFoundland but am on the road (have been for over two months now) and will be for another month and a half. Not all hockey stuff by the way, my primary work is as a traveling Mu/luthier. I balance all three the best that I can and take work whenever/where ever I can. That said I did just about a week ago get passed over by an NHL club for an advanced scout position.

A little of my not willing to bend and allot of their wanting more than I can give seasoned with a bit of my lacking some tech skills and there you go. It was great to be considered so closely but I don't know what I would have done if I had actually been offered the job.

Thank goodness there is still room for freelance workers like me or I would be in my woodshack for good!
Twillingate, I saw that in your sig, didn't realize it was a real place heh,

Whenever you know you are on your way to the GTA, gimme a shout....

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04-15-2011, 02:41 AM
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Yep its a real place. Think CornerGas on a beautiful little coastal isl area and you got it pretty much sorted out. Great place.

The GTA huh, Cool!

Next time around. I will be there on my way back through to home. Gotta eat at 99's at least one time.

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