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Are the Bruins the Sens of old?

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Old
04-16-2011, 10:29 PM
  #26
trentmccleary
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Depends, Ottawa had 4 objective chokes (& 4 upsets of their own):

- 99 v. Buff
- 01 v. Tor
- 03 v. NJ
- 06 v. Buff

How many chokes is Boston up to?

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04-16-2011, 10:32 PM
  #27
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Kessel/Seguin does it really matter? They need skill.


Last edited by Magix: 04-16-2011 at 11:09 PM.
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Old
04-16-2011, 10:32 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
Depends, Ottawa had 4 objective chokes (& 4 upsets of their own):

- 99 v. Buff
- 01 v. Tor
- 03 v. NJ
- 06 v. Buff

How many chokes is Boston up to?
04 v. Toronto was a pretty huge choke job. Not because of the standings (Ottawa was of course the 5th seed) but because of the matchup and the way game 7 played out.

Ottawa was usually good enough to make a run of things (a lot of game 7 losses) but never quite good enough to get over the hump.

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04-16-2011, 10:33 PM
  #29
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so do we compare any favoured team that loses in the playoffs to the 'sens of old' now?

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04-16-2011, 10:45 PM
  #30
trentmccleary
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Originally Posted by jordan7hm View Post
I don't think that year counts.

I don't count that year at least. That was a different kind of Sens team and there were good results because of it. We're talking about the Sens from about 2001-2006 (or I am at least).
From 2002 to 2006;
- Ottawa won 5 playoff series... (Boston has won 4 playoff series in the past 19 years).
- were 2 1/2 mins away from the SCF's.
- had 2 of those 4 postseasons cut short by terrible goaltending.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jordan7hm View Post
04 v. Toronto was a pretty huge choke job. Not because of the standings (Ottawa was of course the 5th seed) but because of the matchup and the way game 7 played out.

Ottawa was usually good enough to make a run of things (a lot of game 7 losses) but never quite good enough to get over the hump.
2004? Lalime lost to Belfour. The Leafs were old, slow, pathetic and embarrassing. They looked like they all need to be sent to the glue factory. Ottawa owned them all over the ice.

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04-16-2011, 10:48 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
From 2002 to 2006;
- Ottawa won 5 playoff series... (Boston has won 4 playoff series in the past 19 years).
- were 2 1/2 mins away from the SCF's.
- had 2 of those 4 postseasons cut short by terrible goaltending.




2004? Lalime lost to Belfour. The Leafs were old, slow, pathetic and embarrassing. They looked like they all need to be sent to the glue factory. Ottawa owned them all over the ice.
At the end of the day...it could be worse for us Sens fans.

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04-16-2011, 10:48 PM
  #32
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A few differences:

Lalime wasn't considered to be nearly as good as Joseph, and he played like it. Thomas is considered Price's equal and is choking.

Sens were soft, Leafs tough; this helped them. B's are tough, Habs soft; didn't help as Habs are MENTALLY tougher than Bruins like Leafs v. Sens.

3 out of the 4 years the Leafs had more points than the Sens and were favoured. Bruins are heavy favourites.


Similarity: Leafs played collapsing D around Joseph, same with Habs / Price. It worked very well, not allowing great chances, having a great goalie to always make the first save. Kind of like Craig Anderson.

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04-16-2011, 10:52 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
From 2002 to 2006;
- Ottawa won 5 playoff series... (Boston has won 4 playoff series in the past 19 years).
- were 2 1/2 mins away from the SCF's.
- had 2 of those 4 postseasons cut short by terrible goaltending.




2004? Lalime lost to Belfour. The Leafs were old, slow, pathetic and embarrassing. They looked like they all need to be sent to the glue factory. Ottawa owned them all over the ice.
Are we arguing? I agree with you, I think. Except I think goalies are part of the team and are included in the choking. 03/04 was a chokejob, losing to the leafs 2-0 in three of the games and then that debacle in game 7 (and really, it was only 4 goals... not insurmountable for a team that has a backbone).

Also, we choked in game 7 against Jersey, failing to complete an epic comeback.

I don't think Boston is near where Ottawa was. That run of choking lasted a good 6 seasons. San Jose is the team I would think is closest.

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04-16-2011, 10:53 PM
  #34
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Why do keep trading their star skilled players everytime that player finally hits their prime, just like Thornton and Kessel.

I bet you they will trade Seguin soon as he hits prime for draft picks and prospects and will have to restored developing another player.0

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04-16-2011, 11:03 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Afro Thunder View Post
Why do keep trading their star skilled players everytime that player finally hits their prime, just like Thornton and Kessel.

I bet you they will trade Seguin soon as he hits prime for draft picks and prospects and will have to restored developing another player.0
Thornton trade was a mistake. Teams make them (and lots of people lost their jobs because of it). Kessel trade related to his cost and his alleged character issues. (Also VERY important to note that he was not a Chiarelli draft pick.)

There's a reason Kessel dropped in his draft year, and unless he's changed significantly (with rumours out there that he hasn't) he's the kind of guy you don't want on your team, regardless of skill level.

I don't think you can take these two examples and use them to say that Boston trades their skilled players away.

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Old
04-16-2011, 11:07 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jordan7hm View Post
I believe in accountability. Failure is not acceptable in any aspect of a business, particularly failure in personnel management and operations. I guess you're ok being mediocre though. That's cool, but I'd rather you cheer for a different team in that case. Perhaps the Leafs could use another fan. I hear they enjoy mediocrity. You'd fit right in. Or BM is hiring again. I believe that one of the job qualifications is an inability to say no. Maybe that's your style?
I believe Murray would have no problem admitting himself that he's made mistakes like everybody does. To put most of the blame on a single person is just wrong and way too simplified, life is a lot more complicated. He's part of the blame (particulary with coaching hirings and 2-3 signings/trades) but overall he has done an adequate job. Reality is complicated beast, you have to deal with a lot of things you don't control, that's why time is what you have to work against.

CIRCUMSTANCES is the key word here and something you have to deeply analyze... Injuries/regression (Redden, Spezza, Michalek, Kuba...), time (Alfie getting older...), personal decisions (Emery behaviour, Heatley/Corvo trade demand...) are not things you control and some teams just face more adversity than others at some point in TIME. That's WHY you absolutely NEED a deep and talented prospect pool, to overcome those problems in a efficient manner instead of patching the UFA/trade way... We didn't have that luxury for a while (check our drafting 2002-2007)


Now I have 2 questions for you :

- If you make the playoffs for 11 straight years, what's the best way to remain as a playoff/Cup contender?

- Look at all the teams who had success since the lock-out, how were they built?

I'll answer for you to save time : Deep and talented prospect pool built with strong drafting.

If you don't have one (Hennessy, Zubov, Nikulin, Bass, Lee, Elliott don't cut it) and you lose players like Chara, Redden, Havlat, Emery and Heatley for almost nothing (except Michalek and two 2nds) in 2-3 years, you're doomed. This league is way too competitive (parity) in case you haven't noticed.

Clear enough?

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Old
04-16-2011, 11:08 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Afro Thunder View Post
I bet you they will trade Seguin soon as he hits prime for draft picks and prospects and will have to restored developing another player.0
If Seguin even turns into a good player. Hasn't Julien basically refused to play Seguin this year?

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Old
04-16-2011, 11:11 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by arglebargle View Post
If Seguin even turns into a good player. Hasn't Julien basically refused to play Seguin this year?
No. Seguin's gotten plenty of chances. And he's played like... well, an 18-year-old.

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Old
04-16-2011, 11:14 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by jordan7hm View Post
Are we arguing? I agree with you, I think. Except I think goalies are part of the team and are included in the choking. 03/04 was a chokejob, losing to the leafs 2-0 in three of the games and then that debacle in game 7 (and really, it was only 4 goals... not insurmountable for a team that has a backbone).
It's a little different wen you can pinpoint one specific player as the problem, especially when; it was recurring with Ottawa & 2006 was because we didn't have our starting goalie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jordan7hm View Post
Also, we choked in game 7 against Jersey, failing to complete an epic comeback.
We lost 3-2 in a 7th game against a veteran playoff team that finished what? 3 point behind us in the standings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jordan7hm View Post
I don't think Boston is near where Ottawa was. That run of choking lasted a good 6 seasons. San Jose is the team I would think is closest.
I'm not sure you've looked to find comparables at all.

St.Louis was a good for a lot of years and didn't win anything. Even posted the unique embarrassment of winning the President's Trophy and getting eliminated in the 1st round (then again, Detroit did that too).
Vancouver was too and is onto their 2nd powerhouse team now.
San Jose is definitely up there.
Boston is also on their 2nd powerhouse in recent years, but has consistently lost to underdog Montreal teams... as opposed to higher seeded Leaf teams.
Philadelphia has been amongst the top teams in the league most years since the mid-1990's alongside Detroit, New Jersey and Colorado. Except that Philly sticks out like a sore thumb in that list for some reason.

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Old
04-16-2011, 11:17 PM
  #40
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The choking moniker is media driven....all it takes is some common sense to realize there are 30 teams in the league, 16 make the playoffs...not an easy championship to win.

I know there's reasons they stick with 16 teams, but if your going to play an 82 game season, it's silly to give over half the teams in the league a shot at the title.

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04-16-2011, 11:18 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
The choking moniker is media driven....all it takes is some common sense to realize there are 30 teams in the league, 16 make the playoffs...not an easy championship to win.

I know there's reasons they stick with 16 teams, but if your going to play an 82 game season, it's silly to give over half the teams in the league a shot at the title.
Yeah, random is as random does. Variance will produce huge upsets, weird streaks and the like. It's the media that picks up the few that occur and stand out, remove the details to simplify, and run with them, making us think something is there beyond the randomness of life.

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Old
04-16-2011, 11:26 PM
  #42
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He's part of the blame (particulary with coaching hirings and 2-3 signings/trades) but overall he has done an adequate job.
How is not exiting the first round adequate. How are two seasons of bottom 7 performances adequate. What are your expectations? Are you just happy if Ottawa makes it to the dance? Maybe the problem is that you have low expectations and should raise them. Some people are ok with D-, but myself I prefer to try and get an A.

Quote:
- if you make the playoffs for 11 straight years, what's the best way to remain as a playoff/Cup contender?

-Look at all the teams who had success since the lock-out, how were they built?
There have been two types of teams with success since the lockout. The more obvious type is the Pittsburgh / Chicago / Washington model. Tank horribly for year after year and hope to get lucky with draft picks. Oh joy!

The less obvious type is the Detroit model. Ottawa followed the Detroit model for years, in fact Ottawa was one of the more obvious proponents of it. Draft wisely and develop players slowly. Fill in the gaps with good free agent acquisitions and the occasional trade. This isn't necessarily a recipe for a cup win, but as Atlanta, NYI, Florida and St. Louis demonstrate, neither is the tanking strategy. And when this strategy doesn't result in a cup win, it still results in a playoff appearance and a reason for the fans to cheer each and every night.

The team Ottawa brought to the cup finals followed this model exactly, and there is no reason why it could not have continued with better management (and coaching, which at the end of the day is management's responsibility). Drafting with this model is not about fancy names, it's about guys who ply their trade in the minors while learning to be pros, about guys who develop properly overseas or in college and who come to the pros a lot more NHL ready (guys like Regin, Greening, Condra, Gryba, etc). Muckler's picks aren't done yet - 4 years after he's gone. That's what the model we were using banked on. In the meantime we could have continued to sign good mid-tier free agents and make fairly minor trades to shore up the team. It's not like this was an old team the year we went to the finals. They were young and had potential. In the intervening years all of that potential has been dumped as Murray tried to reshape this team to fit his ideal. His ideal sucks though, and that's why the guy has never won a stanley cup.

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Old
04-16-2011, 11:34 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
It's a little different wen you can pinpoint one specific player as the problem, especially when; it was recurring with Ottawa & 2006 was because we didn't have our starting goalie.



We lost 3-2 in a 7th game against a veteran playoff team that finished what? 3 point behind us in the standings?



I'm not sure you've looked to find comparables at all.

St.Louis was a good for a lot of years and didn't win anything. Even posted the unique embarrassment of winning the President's Trophy and getting eliminated in the 1st round (then again, Detroit did that too).
Vancouver was too and is onto their 2nd powerhouse team now.
San Jose is definitely up there.
Boston is also on their 2nd powerhouse in recent years, but has consistently lost to underdog Montreal teams... as opposed to higher seeded Leaf teams.
Philadelphia has been amongst the top teams in the league most years since the mid-1990's alongside Detroit, New Jersey and Colorado. Except that Philly sticks out like a sore thumb in that list for some reason.
I was looking at recent comparables trent. I realise that St. Louis had that 25 year appearance streak. I realize that Vancouver has had long streaks of regular season success as well, as have lots of other teams in NHL history. That's all well and good, but I believe we were comparing a current Boston team and I was trying to think of the next closest team right now, not from 15 years ago.

Also not only has Boston not actually lost this series yet (I think they will but you never know), but they did beat Montreal with the core of this team a couple years ago. So not quite the same thing as those Ottawa v Toronto matchups at all.

Vancouver hasn't been this good for that long. And they're better than any Ottawa team except the one that had Hasek in nets. That was the best Ottawa team since the rebirth of the sens. I don't think they're a good comparable either.

San Jose meanwhile has been good but rarely absolutely dominant. They have a lot of guys who put up big numbers in the regular season but dissapear in the playoffs. They have had goaltending question marks (even though never quite as bad as Lalime, Nabakov wasn't exactly a stalwart playoff performer). Some pretty similar issues as Ottawa had. No rivalry like Ottawa v TO though.

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Old
04-16-2011, 11:55 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by jordan7hm View Post
How is not exiting the first round adequate. How are two seasons of bottom 7 performances adequate. What are your expectations? Are you just happy if Ottawa makes it to the dance? Maybe the problem is that you have low expectations and should raise them. Some people are ok with D-, but myself I prefer to try and get an A.



There have been two types of teams with success since the lockout. The more obvious type is the Pittsburgh / Chicago / Washington model. Tank horribly for year after year and hope to get lucky with draft picks. Oh joy!

The less obvious type is the Detroit model. Ottawa followed the Detroit model for years, in fact Ottawa was one of the more obvious proponents of it. Draft wisely and develop players slowly. Fill in the gaps with good free agent acquisitions and the occasional trade. This isn't necessarily a recipe for a cup win, but as Atlanta, NYI, Florida and St. Louis demonstrate, neither is the tanking strategy. And when this strategy doesn't result in a cup win, it still results in a playoff appearance and a reason for the fans to cheer each and every night.

The team Ottawa brought to the cup finals followed this model exactly, and there is no reason why it could not have continued with better management (and coaching, which at the end of the day is management's responsibility). Drafting with this model is not about fancy names, it's about guys who ply their trade in the minors while learning to be pros, about guys who develop properly overseas or in college and who come to the pros a lot more NHL ready (guys like Regin, Greening, Condra, Gryba, etc). Muckler's picks aren't done yet - 4 years after he's gone. That's what the model we were using banked on. In the meantime we could have continued to sign good mid-tier free agents and make fairly minor trades to shore up the team. It's not like this was an old team the year we went to the finals. They were young and had potential. In the intervening years all of that potential has been dumped as Murray tried to reshape this team to fit his ideal. His ideal sucks though, and that's why the guy has never won a stanley cup.
The thing is that, in recent memory, Detroit is the ONLY example of this model. There are MANY examples of the build a successful team by being terrible theory...and you're going to use Detroit as the model to follow??? If I was a betting man....

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04-16-2011, 11:56 PM
  #45
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The current holder of the Alexei Yashin team award (i.e. great in regular season, disappointing in the post-season) is currently being held by the Sharks, after they wrested it away from the Senators, with honourable mention to the Canucks and Capitals.

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Old
04-16-2011, 11:59 PM
  #46
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I was looking at recent comparables trent. I realise that St. Louis had that 25 year appearance streak. I realize that Vancouver has had long streaks of regular season success as well, as have lots of other teams in NHL history. That's all well and good, but I believe we were comparing a current Boston team and I was trying to think of the next closest team right now, not from 15 years ago.

Also not only has Boston not actually lost this series yet (I think they will but you never know), but they did beat Montreal with the core of this team a couple years ago. So not quite the same thing as those Ottawa v Toronto matchups at all.

Vancouver hasn't been this good for that long. And they're better than any Ottawa team except the one that had Hasek in nets. That was the best Ottawa team since the rebirth of the sens. I don't think they're a good comparable either.

San Jose meanwhile has been good but rarely absolutely dominant. They have a lot of guys who put up big numbers in the regular season but dissapear in the playoffs. They have had goaltending question marks (even though never quite as bad as Lalime, Nabakov wasn't exactly a stalwart playoff performer). Some pretty similar issues as Ottawa had. No rivalry like Ottawa v TO though.
Well, you'd have to look at the past comparables as well... lest you keep using a poor example simply because it's at hand and convenient. At this point, quite a few of these so-called potential early decade Sens teams would actually need to be a lot more successful to compare to the teams within your stated timeline of 01-06. Boston for example has almost already used up all of their failures without producing any of the same successes. They lose in the first round this year and all they have to do next year is win the President's Trophy and get within 2 1/2 mins away from the SCF's in a Game 7.

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04-17-2011, 01:58 AM
  #47
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The Bruins look TERRIBLE out there. It's actually hard to watch.

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04-17-2011, 02:53 AM
  #48
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The Bruins look TERRIBLE out there. It's actually hard to watch.
All I know is that when Julien gets canned for epic failing with the Bruins, that the Sens don't think of hiring him. There is something about how boring the B's play and how they perform in the playoffs that have me wanting nothing to do with Claude's "system".

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04-17-2011, 03:50 AM
  #49
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I was looking at recent comparables trent. I realise that St. Louis had that 25 year appearance streak. I realize that Vancouver has had long streaks of regular season success as well, as have lots of other teams in NHL history. That's all well and good, but I believe we were comparing a current Boston team and I was trying to think of the next closest team right now, not from 15 years ago.

Also not only has Boston not actually lost this series yet (I think they will but you never know), but they did beat Montreal with the core of this team a couple years ago. So not quite the same thing as those Ottawa v Toronto matchups at all.

Vancouver hasn't been this good for that long. And they're better than any Ottawa team except the one that had Hasek in nets. That was the best Ottawa team since the rebirth of the sens. I don't think they're a good comparable either.

San Jose meanwhile has been good but rarely absolutely dominant. They have a lot of guys who put up big numbers in the regular season but dissapear in the playoffs. They have had goaltending question marks (even though never quite as bad as Lalime, Nabakov wasn't exactly a stalwart playoff performer). Some pretty similar issues as Ottawa had. No rivalry like Ottawa v TO though.
What are you even trying to argue here? What is your point? Why are you even a fan of the Sens? St louis streak of playoff failures dont count because it happened before the Sens failures. The Bruins arent at the level of past Ottawa choke jobs. Vancouver is better than any team the Sens have ever had. San Joses goaltending sucks but ours was much worse. Our current team sucks because our GM is a failure. Youre just arguing for the sake of arguing because other than that I don't see any reason why you would be a Sens fan unless your a masochist.

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04-17-2011, 04:51 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
Depends, Ottawa had 4 objective chokes (& 4 upsets of their own):

- 99 v. Buff
- 01 v. Tor
- 03 v. NJ
- 06 v. Buff

How many chokes is Boston up to?
THIS THIS THIS THIS!

I am SICK of people saying we choked against the HIGHER SEEDED Leafs.

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