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WCQF | Game 2 | Phoenix Coyotes @ Detroit Red Wings | 1:00 PM EDT | CBC, NBC |

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Old
04-18-2011, 07:09 AM
  #451
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
It sure looked to me that Detroit went into prevent mode (never works) and stopped the attack (with Detroit, the best defense is a great offense), and that, along with a couple undisciplined penalties, allowed Phoenix to claw within a goal.
Well, of course it did.

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04-18-2011, 07:15 AM
  #452
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Well, it didn't take long for this nonsense to rear its mushy head.
It's just reality, Bob. Pointing it out when it happens isn't nonsense.

For instance, last night the refs did everything they possibly could to keep Chicago in that series. 5 of the first 6 penalties were called on Vancouver, including the first 4.

I couldn't care less about either team, but in watching the game I saw that Chicago was getting a huge hand from the refs.

It took a game that Vancouver was handily controlling at ES and turned it into pretty much a coin-flip.

Same deal in the Washington game. The Caps had 5 straight penalties called against them from the second through the middle of the third.

Seriously, how often has a team up 2-0 ever had 4 or five straight PPs? I wonder why that is?

You don't, of course. You're blithely content to be mini Drew Sharp.

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04-18-2011, 08:19 AM
  #453
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
It's just reality, Bob. Pointing it out when it happens isn't nonsense.

For instance, last night the refs did everything they possibly could to keep Chicago in that series. 5 of the first 6 penalties were called on Vancouver, including the first 4.

I couldn't care less about either team, but in watching the game I saw that Chicago was getting a huge hand from the refs.
Nah, that's B.S. I hate the Hawks but honestly the Hawks were outskating and outplaying the Canucks by a solid margin in the first period and the penalties called on the Nucks were a pretty typical consequence of that.

One thing people often ignore as a factor is that when a team is getting outplayed they will do a lot of borderline stuff to halt the momentum of the other team and officials will eventually call those penalties even if they aren't much if you look at the plays isolated from context.

Chicago let the game slip away from them in the 2nd when they turned a 1-0 of theirs that should have been a 3-0 into a 1-2 with a few mistakes. That obviously deflated them.

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04-18-2011, 08:34 AM
  #454
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There's no conspiracy
I think something which needs to be addressed from time to time is the claim that there is a 'conspiracy'. I don't think there's a 'conspiracy'... I just think the NHL would prefer to have bigger markets deeper in the playoffs than smaller (because of the ratings, which helps dictate a better TV package, which means lots of money), they'd prefer to have series go longer than shorter (because of the greater gate revenue... which means money), and they'd like the teams they spend lots of ad bucks on to do well (better ad rates and more revenue... which, big surprise, means money).

That's not conspiratorial or tinfoil hat-ism... it's just common business sense.

Although they are usually bad at their jobs, NHL refs aren't complete idiots. They are assigned to their playoff roles (and the extra cash that comes with them... hey look, money again) by the league. I would think the NHL's general preferences are pretty obvious, even to officials. Given that, even absent a direct linkage of communication between the NHL and officials (which would demonstrate an actual conspiracy), I think officials are smart enough to know which side of their bread is buttered.

In other words, refs that reffed in a manner that nudged games against the general league preferences wouldn't be reffing playoff games.

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It's pretty obvious to me for example that teams complaining about things like Wings screening the goalie or Wings running picks does have an effect. Similarly things during games can affect officiating. Refs are much more likely to call a "weak" penalty if they notice the guy in question has been walking a very thin line before etc.
I agree with all of that. There's the in-game salesmanship of coaches and players and crowds. There's the in-series salesmanship of coaches in their pressers. There's the basic reality that a team up 3 or 4 goals isn't going to get a call that they'd get if it were tied, or that a team up 2 or 3 games in a series is only going to get were the series closer.

And since the Wings have been a really good team most of the time and they've been on the way ahead side of the ledger much more often than they've been on the way behind side... those 'even up the game/series' calls are going to be against them well more often than not.

Those, I don't particularly mind. Happens in every sport and at pretty much every level of every sport. Part of the deal.

The things I tend to mind are the really, really heavy-handed and obvious attempts to nudge series, like the Pitt/Washington game 7 a couple years ago, Detroit's game 2 this year, pretty much the first four games of the SJ series last year until that series wasn't in doubt, the Washington and Vancouver game 3's last night... stuff like that.

That makes the league look ugly.

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Old
04-18-2011, 08:45 AM
  #455
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Nah, that's B.S. I hate the Hawks but honestly the Hawks were outskating and outplaying the Canucks by a solid margin in the first period and the penalties called on the Nucks were a pretty typical consequence of that.
Obviously I disagree with that assessment, but did the Hawks not commit one single penalty the first 29:55 of the game?

I mean, come on. The refs were leaning pretty hard on the Canucks and not all that hard on the Hawks.

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One thing people often ignore as a factor is that when a team is getting outplayed they will do a lot of borderline stuff to halt the momentum of the other team and officials will eventually call those penalties even if they aren't much if you look at the plays isolated from context.
The key word is, of course, 'eventually'. How 'eventually' it is depends on quite a few factors.

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Chicago let the game slip away from them in the 2nd when they turned a 1-0 of theirs that should have been a 3-0 into a 1-2 with a few mistakes. That obviously deflated them.
I agree. When they were only up 1-0 after 1, that was it for them because we have to know that the refs aren't going to but Chicago on 4 PPs every period. Chicago had a huge chance to salt game 3 early. Partially because they were playing well, but also partially because the refs gave them 4 PPs to Vancouver's none in the 1st when it should have been 3-1 or 4-2 based on what was actually happening out on the ice.

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04-18-2011, 09:11 AM
  #456
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The thing is I didn't notice obvious infractions by the Hawks that should have been called for sure but weren't. I mean even the Nucks fans were saying that their team hadn't done much in the first period. The Hawks were desperate and playing for playoff survival. Chicago still has enough offensive weapons to force other teams into obstruction if they play well.

I am sure if you followed the rules to the letter you could have called something on the Hawks too but then you'd probably have 20 to 15 minors in one period. The officials have to be selective due to the sheer amount of grey area in hockey rule interpretation.

It's possible Chicago gets friendlier officiating at home than others, I don't know, I just didn't find it that egregious last night.

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04-18-2011, 11:24 AM
  #457
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Originally Posted by RaySheppard View Post
So...What did you think of Koharski's 'phantom hook' call on Datsyuk?....It was against Anaheim..bit of a turning point...
I thought that was a brutal call that had no place in the game of hockey, especially at that point in the game.

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04-18-2011, 12:38 PM
  #458
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Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
The thing is I didn't notice obvious infractions by the Hawks that should have been called for sure but weren't.
And all four Nucks penalties should have been called for sure, and were?

That's the point. That's what 'nudges' are. Calling all the 75-100% sure penalties one way, but only the 95-100% sure things the other.

Letting one team get away with the maybes and the other team not is how you shift a series most effectively. Just swallowing the whistle one way and calling 6 penalties the other is so obvious the NHL would be the WWE in two weeks if they did that instead.

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04-18-2011, 12:52 PM
  #459
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Helm lined him up when Jovo was square (numbers showing). Helm came in toward the boards, full speed, in a direct, straight line at the boards. Jovo turned to avoid a full smash from behind, so it didn't look as bad.
What you can see from that still, remembering how fast Helm is coming in, is how very close that is to full-on boarding. Now imagine you're the official.

As for the Doan hit on Franzen, I wouldn't have though it was a bad penalty if it was called. The Wrong call? Maybe. But one that you can understand a ref making, given the circumstances.
Franzen did appear to lose an edge by himself, though. Did Doan know that? Meh. He might have done that Franzen was vulnerable (skate tied up).
If Doan knew Franzen was vulnerable as he was, then that's an extremely dangerous hit to make. But that's a hard thing to call.
Sometimes, it's better to be smashed right up against the boards than it is to go in from two feet away.
I don't think Franzen is hurt if his skate wasn't tied up with the other guy. And I think it's really difficult to penalize Doan for checking a guy who was offbalance.
If the ref had been watching the play and had a good angle, he'd have seen that the hit was shoulder-to-shoulder and shoulder-to-boards. If he called it based on Jovo's body position after the hit, Jovo actually was turned face-towards-the-ice when he fell. If he had been boarded, he'd either be face-towards-the-glass or he'd be right along the boards. It's hard to hit a guy in the back and have him bounce off the boards facing you.

I mean, when you look at the Torres hit and the Franzen hit and you see that those aren't penalties, there's no way that the Helm hit can be called. At least, not if the league is pretending the same standards exist across the board.

I'm not suggesting the league or specific refs are "out to get" the Wings, but I am suggesting that the league and specific refs are incompetent and are not using equal standards on all hits.

On the subject of goals being waved off because of "interference", they damn well are out to get the Wings because the standard for the Wings is nowhere near the standard set for any other team. Even if it's not Homer, there's a dotted red line for the Wings and a regular black line for other teams.

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04-18-2011, 01:51 PM
  #460
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Whatevs, Doc.
You keep arguing about the injustices against the Red Wings.

Yep, the good old Red Wings, who've won more cups than anyone since the 80s, 20 straight playoff berths and more playoff wins than anyone since who knows when, they're being picked on by officials.
Mod: deleted.
Wait, I constantly complain about the injustices?

Oh wait, because I'm not taking the "PC" train like you, I must be a silly Wings homer.

Silly me. I'll get my tin foil hat on and continue the "Conspiracy" posts that I never have started.

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04-18-2011, 02:18 PM
  #461
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Wait, I constantly complain about the injustices?

Oh wait, because I'm not taking the "PC" train like you, I must be a silly Wings homer.

Silly me. I'll get my tin foil hat on and continue the "Conspiracy" posts that I never have started.
In a box at the door, next to the "save an octopus, throw a Buttman" tshirts.

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04-18-2011, 02:21 PM
  #462
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Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
If the ref had been watching the play and had a good angle, he'd have seen that the hit was shoulder-to-shoulder and shoulder-to-boards. If he called it based on Jovo's body position after the hit, Jovo actually was turned face-towards-the-ice when he fell. If he had been boarded, he'd either be face-towards-the-glass or he'd be right along the boards. It's hard to hit a guy in the back and have him bounce off the boards facing you.

I mean, when you look at the Torres hit and the Franzen hit and you see that those aren't penalties, there's no way that the Helm hit can be called. At least, not if the league is pretending the same standards exist across the board.

I'm not suggesting the league or specific refs are "out to get" the Wings, but I am suggesting that the league and specific refs are incompetent and are not using equal standards on all hits.

On the subject of goals being waved off because of "interference", they damn well are out to get the Wings because the standard for the Wings is nowhere near the standard set for any other team. Even if it's not Homer, there's a dotted red line for the Wings and a regular black line for other teams.
i think this is about right...


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04-18-2011, 02:46 PM
  #463
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i think this is about right...

I still remember in the 06 Edmonton series when Homer was leaving the offensive zone after the Oil cleared the puck, and Roloson skated out past the dots - PAST THE DOTS - ran into him from behind, and fell down. 2 minutes for Homer. For goalie interference 40 feet from the net. Hilarious.

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04-18-2011, 03:23 PM
  #464
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Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
If the ref had been watching the play and had a good angle, he'd have seen that the hit was shoulder-to-shoulder and shoulder-to-boards. If he called it based on Jovo's body position after the hit, Jovo actually was turned face-towards-the-ice when he fell. If he had been boarded, he'd either be face-towards-the-glass or he'd be right along the boards. It's hard to hit a guy in the back and have him bounce off the boards facing you.
When the moment that hit began, Jovo was at a 45 degree angle to the boards. I think that's clear.
Helm comes it at a 90 degree angle and rams him into the boards. Jovo is able to squeeze out of the head-on-smash, but was still injured on the play.
You want to run a guy into the boards from behind, prepare for two minutes or more.
Cry about it all, I don't care.

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I mean, when you look at the Torres hit and the Franzen hit and you see that those aren't penalties, there's no way that the Helm hit can be called. At least, not if the league is pretending the same standards exist across the board.
That's silly talk. The league is "pretending?"
Puhlease.
What was wrong with the Torres shot? The only thing wrong with it, MAYBE, is that Eberle had lost control of the puck. But if that hit connects with Eberle's shoulder, nobody cares.
I already told you that I wouldn't complain if Doan was called for two minutes there, even if I don't think the refs necessarily made the wrong call.


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I'm not suggesting the league or specific refs are "out to get" the Wings, but I am suggesting that the league and specific refs are incompetent and are not using equal standards on all hits.
You've got 60+ plus refs who will never all be on the exact same page. It's impossible. Some refs let some stuff go. Some let other stuff go and crack down on other things.

I prefer the guys who let them play, calling the obvious, the dangerous infractions, and the infractions that prevent or cause scoring chances. If I reffed, that's how I'd do it.



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On the subject of goals being waved off because of "interference", they damn well are out to get the Wings because the standard for the Wings is nowhere near the standard set for any other team. Even if it's not Homer, there's a dotted red line for the Wings and a regular black line for other teams.
Baloney.
I'll give you that Homer has earned the extra scrutiny from the refs, but I don't see Cleary and Franzen getting waved off 5 times a year.

And you know what, Homer FINALLY got the point and he's backed off a good 12-18 inches.
Finally. And has it hurt his game? Nope.
He provides screens on what? Two goals the other night? TIpped in another?
If only he'd have realized that earlier

Whine about the doublestandard all you want. But if you're ref and Homer's out there, you know that if the Wings get a goal because of Homer's interference, you're going to be the one who has to tell your boss why you didn't keep an eye on the game's most famous crease crasher.

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04-18-2011, 04:04 PM
  #465
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post

That's silly talk. The league is "pretending?"
Puhlease.
What was wrong with the Torres shot? The only thing wrong with it, MAYBE, is that Eberle had lost control of the puck. But if that hit connects with Eberle's shoulder, nobody cares.
I already told you that I wouldn't complain if Doan was called for two minutes there, even if I don't think the refs necessarily made the wrong call.
But it didn't. And nothing in Torres' past says that he at all didn't intend to hit Eberle in the head.

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04-18-2011, 04:27 PM
  #466
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But it didn't. And nothing in Torres' past says that he at all didn't intend to hit Eberle in the head.
Right.
I assume you cheer when Kronwall explodes into somebody's jaw, right?

You tell me what was illegal about Torres' hit.
He never came close to leaving his feet, even after the hit.
It kept his arms down and didn't even deliver the forearm, like Kronwall always does at the end of the hit.
You can't blind side, because Torres is coming straight up the ice.

It's like the Jason Williams hit a few years ago.
Completely clean. And super hard. But that's not illegal. I guy his head down as Eberle does, and big a guy Torres is going to wipe him out.
That's hockey.
Suspending a guy for 4 games for a good hit? That's ridiculous.

I'll give refs the benefit of the doubt on bang-bang play that happens right in front of them. But the NHL had days to watch that replay, and idea that Torres hit is something that needs to be punished tells you a lot about the lollipops running this league.

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04-18-2011, 04:36 PM
  #467
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Torres' hit was illegal because it was interference, that needs to be clarified. By the rules of the sport he has to play the puck there or play the man after the guy played the puck.

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04-18-2011, 04:45 PM
  #468
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Right.
I assume you cheer when Kronwall explodes into somebody's jaw, right?

You tell me what was illegal about Torres' hit.
He never came close to leaving his feet, even after the hit.
It kept his arms down and didn't even deliver the forearm, like Kronwall always does at the end of the hit.
You can't blind side, because Torres is coming straight up the ice.

It's like the Jason Williams hit a few years ago.
Completely clean. And super hard. But that's not illegal. I guy his head down as Eberle does, and big a guy Torres is going to wipe him out.
That's hockey.
Suspending a guy for 4 games for a good hit? That's ridiculous.

I'll give refs the benefit of the doubt on bang-bang play that happens right in front of them. But the NHL had days to watch that replay, and idea that Torres hit is something that needs to be punished tells you a lot about the lollipops running this league.

Ah, but you're forgetting the charging rule the league has as well.

I love playoff hockey because the hitting goes up, but I never like having a guy lined up for a hit from across the ice and having some player race towards him with one purpose only. Torres doesn't know or care where the puck is half the time. He's like a Tootoo whose purpose it seems is to just look for a target and accelerate towards at top speed. These aren't hockey plays, which are legit if a puck is in play and you want to knock it loose because you were there competing for it or that play. No, these plays are meant to target players specifically. At some point, we can agree that there's a reason some players get that reputation for being dirty. They aren't making good hockey plays any more. They're trying to injure fellow players.

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04-18-2011, 05:19 PM
  #469
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
And all four Nucks penalties should have been called for sure, and were?

That's the point. That's what 'nudges' are. Calling all the 75-100% sure penalties one way, but only the 95-100% sure things the other.

Letting one team get away with the maybes and the other team not is how you shift a series most effectively. Just swallowing the whistle one way and calling 6 penalties the other is so obvious the NHL would be the WWE in two weeks if they did that instead.
It seems some fans can't see it. Should it surprise me? I do know know.
But that is exactly what the home team gets, the home team gets PPs on some questionable calls, while the road team does not get PPs on very clear penalties. That is how it should be, but not when it comes to the Wings. The Coyotes get over 3min and 30 secons 5 on 3 through game 1&2, the Wings not a sec. I do not know how more obvious it can get.
CB argues cause he now sees that last season 2nd round exit was clearly the refs job. There's no way the Sharks eliminate the Wings without the refs' help.
Now, we the Wings should not accept this *****.

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04-18-2011, 05:28 PM
  #470
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Ah, but you're forgetting the charging rule the league has as well.

I love playoff hockey because the hitting goes up, but I never like having a guy lined up for a hit from across the ice and having some player race towards him with one purpose only. Torres doesn't know or care where the puck is half the time. He's like a Tootoo whose purpose it seems is to just look for a target and accelerate towards at top speed. These aren't hockey plays, which are legit if a puck is in play and you want to knock it loose because you were there competing for it or that play. No, these plays are meant to target players specifically. At some point, we can agree that there's a reason some players get that reputation for being dirty. They aren't making good hockey plays any more. They're trying to injure fellow players.
Not to mention unsportsmanlike conduct, which can act as a catch-all for this type of stuff. Maybe my idea of unsportsmanlike conduct is different from everyone else's, but running at a guy's head fits the bill for me.

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