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No Calder for Subban

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Old
04-19-2011, 08:41 PM
  #51
Forsead
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Obviously, this league has no idea how to judge a d-man to a forward, they have no idea of the complexity and the difficulty of the defensive postion when in PK's case, he had to take over Markov and Gorges absences and Spacek later on. Everybody would agree that as a freakin rookie, the guy ended a #1 d-man ON A TEAM THAT EVENTUALLY MADE THE PLAYOFFS.

Not Skinner nor Grabner's fault, and in Skinner's case it's tough to debate it, but they didn't make the playoffs. And especially in Grabner's case....isn't it a little easier to play a guy when you don't make the playoffs? Where's the pressure? While Subban had all the pressure in the world.

Anyway, it is the NHL. When a defenceman award will often if not always be given to a d-man with top 5 stats. When you can maybe finish 10th but could be the best defensive d-man in the game. So since the league can't respect that, as much as they need a defensive forward award, they'll need a defensive d-man one too....
Yeah, but don't forget he also had the third best number in goal for a rookie in the last 10 years, he also don't get too much icetime and he is a pretty good PKer.

Don't forget that for this award playoff are not even considered.

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04-20-2011, 03:23 AM
  #52
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Stiff competition this year. What else can you say?

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Old
04-20-2011, 07:54 AM
  #53
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This is gonna fire-up Subban, just watch for it.

And really, I prefer him not winning, and even better, not being nominated at all. He'll cost less on his next contract...

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Old
04-20-2011, 08:11 AM
  #54
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I think PK's +- hurt his case a fair bit, especially against Couture and Grabner. That stat does not reflect his contribution defensively at all, but that's what some people will look at.

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04-20-2011, 08:14 AM
  #55
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Who cares about the trophy?

The highest scoring defenseman in the league only had 20 goals this year...and Subban had 14 as a rookie. I think he's going to be one of the very best defensemen in the league. He has everything you could want...good size and elite skating ability which allows him to keep possession and get his lethal slapshot to the net...and he shoots righty too which is a rare commodity.

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04-20-2011, 08:42 AM
  #56
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Who cares about the trophy?

The highest scoring defenseman in the league only had 20 goals this year...and Subban had 14 as a rookie. I think he's going to be one of the very best defensemen in the league. He has everything you could want...good size and elite skating ability which allows him to keep possession and get his lethal slapshot to the net...and he shoots righty too which is a rare commodity.
I think it's mostly about the hate on the boards then anything else. See you're a Bruins fan and you can put aside the hate for a second and say PK is a hell of a player but not everyone can do that. There is a lot of hate towards the Habs on these boards, every player sucks and no one is worth anything + we overrate every single player. Anyways I couldn't care less about what people think, I got use to it after so many years and a person watching hockey in Atlanta isn't going to tell me who is good or not in this league.

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04-20-2011, 08:59 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Stiff competition this year. What else can you say?
Pretty much. I don't think this will affect PK in any way whatsoever, though. Contrary to what a lot of people might think, he's pretty selfless and puts the team first every time.

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Old
04-20-2011, 09:03 AM
  #58
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Pretty much. I don't think this will affect PK in any way whatsoever, though. Contrary to what a lot of people might think, he's pretty selfless and puts the team first every time.
I doubt it affects him as well, Skinner should win the Calder

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04-20-2011, 09:06 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
I doubt it affects him as well, Skinner should win the Calder
I am sure Subban will say Skinner only won it thanks to the five minutes Subban wore his jersey!

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04-20-2011, 09:13 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
I doubt it affects him as well, Skinner should win the Calder
Debatable - I like Skinner's game and I'm sure he'll probably win, but Grabner deserves some serious consideration as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucius View Post
I am sure Subban will say Skinner only won it thanks to the five minutes Subban wore his jersey!
Nicely done.

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Old
04-20-2011, 09:21 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Coldplay View Post
Debatable - I like Skinner's game and I'm sure he'll probably win, but Grabner deserves some serious consideration as well.
He is getting consideration by being in the final 3, I think Skinner takes it and Couture follows at #2

Pretty amazing that the Florida Panthers didn't have a roster spot for Grabner and placed him on waivers

Keep the team in Florida Gary!!!!

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04-20-2011, 09:34 AM
  #62
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I think PK's +- hurt his case a fair bit, especially against Couture and Grabner. That stat does not reflect his contribution defensively at all, but that's what some people will look at.
+/- is partly a consequence of the teamates a player has and in which situation he plays.

Subban's GAA per 60 minutes is among the best in the league among defensemen with 20+ minutes per game played.

The complete +/- stats (GF GA at ES+PP+SH) gives a better overall view.

Carlson's (66 GA 22:38toi/82) Goals Against Average is just a bit under Subban's GAA (68 GA 22:16toi/77) , has close to the same number of points, but the difference in +/- is only due to Carlson (93GFtotal 72ES 18:06EStoi) and his usual teamates (Ovy 85pts, Backstrom 65pts, Semin 54pts, Laich 48 pts, Knuble 40pts : total 292pts) getting more goals for at even strenght than Subban (78GFtotal 49ES 16:38EStoi) and his usual teamates (Plex 57pts, Cammy 47pts, Gio 46, AK 45 and Gomer 38 : total 233pts) considering the Habs are more proficient on the PP and have less skilled forwards.

Add this to the fact that while Subban got a lot of his points off the PP (29GF 3:04/77) vs (21GF 2:12), he played a lot of SH time (2:36) and allowed 11 goals vs 15 goals allowed by Carlson Carlson (2:19).

Subban allowed more goals at even strenght, but allowed less goals on the PK, which is as much if not more important than even strenght (especially since the term even strenght is meant to define the unit of 5, which has more talent on Washington's side).





Not another rookie has close to the impact that Subban had on the Habs this season. Just the fact that he's among the best goal scorers among ALL defensemen in the league should've got him a nomination. Subban has 3/4 of Grabner's PPG average, and that's usually the difference (3/4) between the best pointers among dmen vs forwards.

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Old
04-20-2011, 09:36 AM
  #63
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The choices are good ones tho I question Couture as he played 25 games last year so while technically a rookie, not sure if it is really fair. It is one of the reasons why Marchand was out of the running fairly early. I don't care for PK but there is no denying the kid's got some serious talent and honestly if you look at the numbers objectively, one has to question Couture's "rookie status." Skinner will win this award.

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Old
04-20-2011, 09:39 AM
  #64
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I think Grabner was a very bad choice...

But was PK in the Top 3 ? I doubt it... good cases can be made by Crawford, Carlsson, Hall, etc.

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Old
04-20-2011, 10:15 AM
  #65
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not surprised
figured he didnt have much of a shot
but he did have a great year!
can't take that away!

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Old
04-20-2011, 10:20 AM
  #66
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Rookie d-man playing #1 minutes on a good team > 30 goal scorer

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04-20-2011, 10:42 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldplay View Post
Debatable - I like Skinner's game and I'm sure he'll probably win, but Grabner deserves some serious consideration as well.
Personally I would have a problem with a 23 y.o. forward winning a Calder. I know it can happen and that age I think is not really supposed to be considered, but forwards develop usually fairly young, and at 24 y.o. are already getting close to their prime in terms of offensive potential, usually what they improve afterwards is their all-around game (and sometimes it actually makes their offensive numbers suffer because they take less stupid chances that might pay in terms of points in the long run but might cost your team games too).

I mean, just to make it clear Grabner is 2005 draft age. Would you consider Crosby, Bobby Ryan, Price, Kopitar, etc. rookies?

21 y.o. defenseman is much earlier in his development usually than a 24 y.o. forward, so if they're comparable in terms of worth I'd put the defenseman there. Skinner started the year at 18 y.o., which makes his stats that much more amazing to me, because he still has time before hitting his prime, guy will likely develop in a 40-45 goal scorer.

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04-20-2011, 10:44 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Patccmoi View Post
Personally I would have a problem with a 24 y.o. forward winning a Calder. I know it can happen and that age I think is not really supposed to be considered, but forwards develop usually fairly young, and at 24 y.o. are already getting close to their prime in terms of offensive potential, usually what they improve afterwards is their all-around game (and sometimes it actually makes their offensive numbers suffer because they take less stupid chances that might pay in terms of points in the long run but might cost your team games too).

21 y.o. defenseman is much earlier in his development usually than a 24 y.o. forward, so if they're comparable in terms of worth I'd put the defenseman there. Skinner started the year at 18 y.o., which makes his stats that much more amazing to me, because he still has time before hitting his prime, guy will likely develop in a 40-45 goal scorer.
It's not necessarily a bad point, but to me, if he's eligible, you judge his season. You don't judge it on a curve for his age. If he's eligible, he's eligible. End of story.

Now, whether the NHL should revise what makes someone eligible is a debate worth having...

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04-20-2011, 10:49 AM
  #69
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It's not necessarily a bad point, but to me, if he's eligible, you judge his season. You don't judge it on a curve for his age. If he's eligible, he's eligible. End of story.

Now, whether the NHL should revise what makes someone eligible is a debate worth having...
Well, I understand. It's just that when you end up in a tight situation (2 guys with comparable worth), I think that age should come into play.

If Grabner had 40 goals and 70 points, I would not say anything about his age because that would be amazing for his first season in the league. But now he has solid, but not out of the ordinary stats for a rookie, and he's 24, so for me unless there's nobody else deserving he'd get a pass.

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04-20-2011, 10:50 AM
  #70
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I guess it depends how you see it.

If it's an award for the rookie who had the best year then it's alright that Subban is not there.

But if you think about who will have the best career, (I,m not saying Skinner won't have a great career, I love the kid) or even more so, who is more valuable to his team? Than PK would have to be nominated instead of Grabner or Couture.

PK is already a number one defenseman on his team and he's playing 27 minutes a night now in the playoffs. Plays on the PP and the PK.

I agree that if he had more points (like 15 goals, 45 points) hecould have been nominated by the journalists.

I also think that if you do a draft where the GM's would pick among all this year's rookie class, PK would go in the top3, no question.

Anyway, I think Skinner gets it, also because he's the youngest of the bunch.

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Old
04-20-2011, 10:59 AM
  #71
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These 3 rookies have more goals than any of our scorer. I don't see why the complains....

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Old
04-20-2011, 12:19 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Obviously, this league has no idea how to judge a d-man to a forward, they have no idea of the complexity and the difficulty of the defensive postion when in PK's case, he had to take over Markov and Gorges absences and Spacek later on. Everybody would agree that as a freakin rookie, the guy ended a #1 d-man ON A TEAM THAT EVENTUALLY MADE THE PLAYOFFS.

Not Skinner nor Grabner's fault, and in Skinner's case it's tough to debate it, but they didn't make the playoffs. And especially in Grabner's case....isn't it a little easier to play a guy when you don't make the playoffs? Where's the pressure? While Subban had all the pressure in the world.

Anyway, it is the NHL. When a defenceman award will often if not always be given to a d-man with top 5 stats. When you can maybe finish 10th but could be the best defensive d-man in the game. So since the league can't respect that, as much as they need a defensive forward award, they'll need a defensive d-man one too....
Making the playoffs or not is a TEAM stat that doesn't distinguish between who's really carrying the weight and who isn't. The Calder is an award that is given to the rookie who performed the best, not how 70% of the team's success thanks to someone else (cough...Mr. Carey Price...cough) makes a player the "better" rookie.

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Old
04-20-2011, 12:22 PM
  #73
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Dont really care, hes going to be better than all three anyways.

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Old
04-20-2011, 12:37 PM
  #74
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Quote:
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I am sure Subban will say Skinner only won it thanks to the five minutes Subban wore his jersey!
Lol, I just saw this.

That's what happens when you ask the written press everywhere. In the south US cities they only see their team and the All-Star game, and I'm sure when Skinner goes to grab his trophy, half of them will be like "wait! I thought Skinner was that black guy!"

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04-20-2011, 03:54 PM
  #75
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I'm sure PKs eventual Norris will make up for it

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