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What good are timeouts if you dont use them

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Old
04-20-2011, 02:37 PM
  #51
DryIslandBartender
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A time out wasn't going to save this team last night.

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04-20-2011, 02:46 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
I can't think of a single goal San Jose scored last night that was the result of Quick flopping around. Every goal with the exception of the one that deflected in off Mitchell's stick was off a cross ice pass where Quick had to challenge the man that passed the puck because that player was in a scoring area.

Quick had the shooters. It's the defenses job to take the pass. They didn't do that. The defensive coverage in the 2nd was awful. The defense (forwards included) lost the weakside forward consistently throughout the 2nd period.
I forget which goal it was (and I can't watch them again!), the shot was from top of the slot, Quick's heels were practically on the goal line, not out cutting down the angle at all. And by crouching down, he just gives up more net as well.

Obvioiusly the D sucked in the 2nd. But like how the D helped Quick get the SO in game 2 (clearing the crease, etc.), Quick had the opportunity to return the favor by bailing them out and he couldn't do it.

Once it was 5-4 and then 5-5, Quick's game changed. He played nervous, not confident.

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04-20-2011, 03:06 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BerniernextRoy View Post
A time out wasn't going to save this team last night.
Again, no one is saying that it would have, but why not try? Shouldn't a coach try everything at his disposal to re-focus his team? Same with ice time. If Handzus and Penner are being exploited for their lack of foot speed on the counter attack, why not move Lewis up with Penner and Brown? Handzus and Poni have played well together. If Terry didn't want to use Westgarth anymore, just double shift Brown or Williams.

I think it would have shocked the players to see Terry call a time out in the 2nd period, it would have been so far from character for Terry that it might have just worked.

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04-20-2011, 03:13 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by BerniernextRoy View Post
A time out wasn't going to save this team last night.
... Who is saying it would have? Would it have hurt the team to try it, though?

And I'm not talking about him yelling or giving the team an earful. That's the LAST thing he needed to do. Just calm the team down, tell them to get back to playing hockey our way. Remind them to stay alert, and remind them that they're still ahead in the game.

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04-20-2011, 03:14 PM
  #55
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Calling the time out would have at least showed the team things are not going well. Yeh they know it but it shows them that things are bad enough we need to take a stopage.

The time out was not the reason we lost all by itself. But it could have been something if we called it. Maybe the guys calm down.

A coach is supposed to be able to read the game and notice momentum changes. It is obvious to almost everyone in the hockey world he should have done something. Instead he sits there looking bored. If he at least was yelling at them or something to let them know get your heads out of your ass and play the system so we can win this thing. He sits there not realizing this team is young. It is only the second play off for these guys and you could tell they were gripping after the 1st goal.

TM

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04-20-2011, 03:15 PM
  #56
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What are you guys doing for living? I assume you are all coaching ice hockey at high enough level, where you do have TV timeouts in between, so you exactly know how useless they are?

Amazing how easy it is to be smart in front of TV - or better said in front of VCR after the game has been long time finished.

I will repeat one more time that most people overrate the effect of a time out. It can have even negative effect in case things don't go well. Personally I think there is nothing worse than getting another goal AFTER a timeout (or goalie change). That one is a real killer.

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04-20-2011, 03:35 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... Who is saying it would have? Would it have hurt the team to try it, though?

And I'm not talking about him yelling or giving the team an earful. That's the LAST thing he needed to do. Just calm the team down, tell them to get back to playing hockey our way. Remind them to stay alert, and remind them that they're still ahead in the game.
He did all that during the TV timeouts. If they didn't listen to Murray in that instance, I don't think a timeout would have changed squat.

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04-20-2011, 08:44 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonySCV View Post
McClellan called a time out after the 2nd goal. Similar circumstances. Didn't help. The Sharks were still a mess mentally and defensively and gave up 2 more goals. If you're asserting that a perfectly-timed timeout would have stopped the bleeding, I assert that it wouldn't have made a hill of beans difference by previous in-game example.

If you want to point to an effective coaching tactic, it was McClellan pulling his goalie. Murray could have pulled Quick after the Sharks 4th goal. Maybe that would have helped, but I see little value in complaining about things that didn't take place.

The use or non-use of a time out is insignificant in the grand scheme of what went wrong with the Kings last night.
Between the second and thrid period I spoke with someone with far more hockey knowledge than anyone posting here. He thought that we shold have seen "the other Goalie" after the fourth goal, just to wake them up.

All I can say is that sitting there passively isnt something that CAN help. I wouldn't have minded that kind of move even though I dont think the goals were JQ's fault. A coach should coach. That implies taking some action. Jr could stand there passively just as well as TM did.

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04-20-2011, 09:10 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by BerniernextRoy View Post
He did all that during the TV timeouts. If they didn't listen to Murray in that instance, I don't think a timeout would have changed squat.
... Like I said - at some point, the coaches have to step in and get some control of the team. They didn't do that. If they're going to be leaders, they have to preach. They have to repeat themselves. They can't just sit there like wooden indians and say "Well, we told them to start tightening up". Well, obviously they didn't tell them enough. Repeat it. Repeat it again. Call time out, and repeat it again. Until the team is like "OK, OK! We get it!"

"Doing nothing" is not an acceptable thing for a head coach to do in that instance. The game meant too much, and it was slipping away. Most of the Kings had only 8 games of playoff experience prior to yesterday. They are learning, right? They needed something to shock them a bit. Maybe a time out would have done it. Maybe pulling the goalie would have done it. Maybe sitting a guy down for a long stretch would have done it. What other options does a coach have at his disposal? How did Handzus do on the draw? 1 for what - 18 or something? Why was he continuing to take the draws?

It's just ... I don't know. This one stings, and I'll tell you what - if I'm a head coach of an NHL team and I'm in the playoffs, and I see my team sinking like the Titanic, I'll be damned if I'm not going to go down fighting. I'm going to try just about anything I have at my disposal to try and stem the tide. At least I can walk away knowing that I just didn't stand there and let it happen. If that's all Murray's gonna do, why be behind the bench? Just go up in the booth with a headset and sit next to Bob and Jim.

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04-20-2011, 09:14 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
Between the second and thrid period I spoke with someone with far more hockey knowledge than anyone posting here.
Oh yeah? Would you say he has more, less or equal hockey knowledge than, let's say Terry Murray?

My second question would be, do you believe that amongst people with equal or more hockey knowledge than your Mr. X you could find nobody who wouldn't have changed the goalie? If you think there could be someone who would have kept Quick in, what is the point of the whole "someone with superb hockey knowledge said so" part of your post? You do know that this doesn't mean anything, I hope?

It's enough that we are losing our sanity here discussing latest Kings fiasco, it makes it much harder when some of us "know people who know hockey much more than you and he agrees with me"

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04-20-2011, 09:18 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... Like I said - at some point, the coaches have to step in and get some control of the team. They didn't do that. If they're going to be leaders, they have to preach. They have to repeat themselves. They can't just sit there like wooden indians and say "Well, we told them to start tightening up". Well, obviously they didn't tell them enough. Repeat it. Repeat it again. Call time out, and repeat it again. Until the team is like "OK, OK! We get it!"

"Doing nothing" is not an acceptable thing for a head coach to do in that instance. The game meant too much, and it was slipping away. Most of the Kings had only 8 games of playoff experience prior to yesterday. They are learning, right? They needed something to shock them a bit. Maybe a time out would have done it. Maybe pulling the goalie would have done it. Maybe sitting a guy down for a long stretch would have done it. What other options does a coach have at his disposal? How did Handzus do on the draw? 1 for what - 18 or something? Why was he continuing to take the draws?

It's just ... I don't know. This one stings, and I'll tell you what - if I'm a head coach of an NHL team and I'm in the playoffs, and I see my team sinking like the Titanic, I'll be damned if I'm not going to go down fighting. I'm going to try just about anything I have at my disposal to try and stem the tide. At least I can walk away knowing that I just didn't stand there and let it happen. If that's all Murray's gonna do, why be behind the bench? Just go up in the booth with a headset and sit next to Bob and Jim.
Well said. There seems to be a large group of King fans where everything is always alright, it's never time to panic, they're OK sitting next to Aunt Edna on the long trip to Wallyworld. I think if anything, last night proved to me that this is it for Murray and his coaching staff. The Kings do not need a players coach, there is no pressure from the media or fans, the weather is nice-this team needs a mean coach. Dude needs to rule with fear. Sensei Kreese, John Gruden, somebody with killer instinct cause this whole organization lacks it. You have players who show up to camp out of shape, rumored alcohol abuse or late night partying on the town, when a Kings players shows up in better shape he's applauded as though that shows dedication. The captain is soft spoken, Taylor was soft spoken, Andy Murray was soft spoken, where is the fire at on this team? Does anybody yell?

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04-20-2011, 09:23 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... Like I said - at some point, the coaches have to step in and get some control of the team. They didn't do that. If they're going to be leaders, they have to preach. They have to repeat themselves. They can't just sit there like wooden indians and say "Well, we told them to start tightening up". Well, obviously they didn't tell them enough. Repeat it. Repeat it again. Call time out, and repeat it again. Until the team is like "OK, OK! We get it!"

"Doing nothing" is not an acceptable thing for a head coach to do in that instance. The game meant too much, and it was slipping away. Most of the Kings had only 8 games of playoff experience prior to yesterday. They are learning, right? They needed something to shock them a bit. Maybe a time out would have done it. Maybe pulling the goalie would have done it. Maybe sitting a guy down for a long stretch would have done it. What other options does a coach have at his disposal? How did Handzus do on the draw? 1 for what - 18 or something? Why was he continuing to take the draws?

It's just ... I don't know. This one stings, and I'll tell you what - if I'm a head coach of an NHL team and I'm in the playoffs, and I see my team sinking like the Titanic, I'll be damned if I'm not going to go down fighting. I'm going to try just about anything I have at my disposal to try and stem the tide. At least I can walk away knowing that I just didn't stand there and let it happen. If that's all Murray's gonna do, why be behind the bench? Just go up in the booth with a headset and sit next to Bob and Jim.
Here's my problem with that.

You are ASSUMING they did nothing, and that's a HUGE assumption to make.

Just because the goaltender wasn't pulled, and I am on the fence on that, I can see it both sides, and the timeout wasn't called, you are assuming they didn't say a word, they didn't talk, they didn't communicate, that they just sat and watched.

That's an awfully big assumption to make when you have no idea what was said.

Like I said in the beginning, my whole problem wasn't the timeouts, it is whatever was said in the 2nd/3rd intermission either didn't take, or it was the wrong ****ing message, THAT to be is a bigger problem.

If it didn't take, that's a serious sign the players tuned him out, if it was the wrong message, that's a serious sign he didn't read the game properly.

The ONE thing that will help Murray I think, will be to see how the team comes out on Thursday night, if they come out flat, I think he may be gone for the right reasons, if they come out fighting, then I think he is doing his job properly, and no, not calling a timeout is not indicative if he is doing his job properly...

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04-20-2011, 09:44 PM
  #63
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I also want to say from our end that there is a time and place to bring all of this crap up and during the playoffs just isn't the time as far as I am concerned. Are there problems? ABSOLUTELY. The same one's that were here before the playoffs but the Kings aren't going to fire our coach or make any significant roster moves until after the season.

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04-21-2011, 10:23 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nex06 View Post
Oh yeah? Would you say he has more, less or equal hockey knowledge than, let's say Terry Murray?

My second question would be, do you believe that amongst people with equal or more hockey knowledge than your Mr. X you could find nobody who wouldn't have changed the goalie? If you think there could be someone who would have kept Quick in, what is the point of the whole "someone with superb hockey knowledge said so" part of your post? You do know that this doesn't mean anything, I hope?

It's enough that we are losing our sanity here discussing latest Kings fiasco, it makes it much harder when some of us "know people who know hockey much more than you and he agrees with me"
I realize you are new to these parts so I'm not insulted by your take.

BUT, I'm not going to quote the guy, as that would be unfair to him, speaking privately to me as he was. Others around here, who know me, may be able to figure out quite easily who I was talking about. I'd say his hockey pedigree, particluarly with respect to the defense, is very well established.

That said, I never said he agreed with me. I was all for calling a timeout. He thought a goalie change would have been in order, notwithstanding that the goals weren't Quicker's fault. I dont throw names around here to buttress my opinions, I think I can do just fine on my own without that. I was pointing out an angle that some on this board hadn't even considered.

But the concept of sitting and waiting for destiny to take its course is one that never sits well with me, in hockey or life.

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04-21-2011, 10:29 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Tikkanen View Post

The captain is soft spoken, Taylor was soft spoken, Andy Murray was soft spoken, where is the fire at on this team? Does anybody yell?
Maybe to the media, but several years back after one big loss to Detroit I had locker room passes with Jr. and AM closed the room and BLASTED every guy in the room at full volume. the media were outside and every one of them heard it. It could be heard down the hall and around the bend.

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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
I also want to say from our end that there is a time and place to bring all of this crap up and during the playoffs just isn't the time as far as I am concerned. Are there problems? ABSOLUTELY. The same one's that were here before the playoffs but the Kings aren't going to fire our coach or make any significant roster moves until after the season.
No doubt, but I am still shocked that he didnt call any timeout, and the whole TV timeout thing seems like post hoc justification to me.

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04-21-2011, 11:34 AM
  #66
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Here's my problem with that.

You are ASSUMING they did nothing, and that's a HUGE assumption to make.

Just because the goaltender wasn't pulled, and I am on the fence on that, I can see it both sides, and the timeout wasn't called, you are assuming they didn't say a word, they didn't talk, they didn't communicate, that they just sat and watched.

That's an awfully big assumption to make when you have no idea what was said.
... Again, they didn't use anything they had at their disposal. No line or defensive adjustments, no adjustments on the draw despite Handzus getting worked, no time out, no goalie change. They just didn't do enough, and that's giving them the benefit of the doubt that they did anything at all. I thought the game was one of the worst-coached games I've ever seen from a Kings' head coach, if not the worst. It was without a doubt the worst-coached period I've ever seen.

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Like I said in the beginning, my whole problem wasn't the timeouts, it is whatever was said in the 2nd/3rd intermission either didn't take, or it was the wrong ****ing message, THAT to be is a bigger problem.
... I disagree here as I thought the Kings played alright in the third period and in OT. They got back quite a bit of what they'd lost defensively, and they were creating some offensive chances. I don't consider the OT goal as part of the collapse. It was independent to me from what went down in the second period.

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The ONE thing that will help Murray I think, will be to see how the team comes out on Thursday night, if they come out flat, I think he may be gone for the right reasons, if they come out fighting, then I think he is doing his job properly, and no, not calling a timeout is not indicative if he is doing his job properly...
... I still believe that the Kopitar injury saved Murray's job. It's a ready made excuse, and whatever the Kings do positively in the playoffs from this point on will be credited to Murray and he'll be praised as a head coach that "overcame adversity" or whatever other B.S. that will be attached to it. Murray's going nowhere.

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04-21-2011, 03:03 PM
  #67
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Tonights game is a reflection on Terry Murray and Dustin Brown. Very cliche but it's time to circle the wagons, protect the house, whatever you want to call it. This is a very winnable series, a win brings it back to even and the pressure would then be back on the Sharks who are notorious for collapsing. I better see some messages sent tonight, I want to see some passion, some flair for the game, smart play on defense, no blown coverages and just a tiny ounce of emotion from the coach.

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04-21-2011, 04:17 PM
  #68
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Murray was saving his timeout for when the Kings regained a 4 goal lead with a minute to go in the 3rd following an icing call ala game 2

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04-21-2011, 05:38 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Murray
"That was the conversation on the bench the whole period, and certainly in the TV timeouts. Thatís exactly the stuff weíre talking about. `Settle it down here, make plays, show composure, everybody is good. Just do the right thing, back to home plate.í All those cliches that we talk to the players about, those catchphrases that they understand exactly what weíre talking about. Thatís why I didnít call timeout, because itís going through the whole period. Itís going through three timeouts with TV. That one extra timeout would not have made any difference in the message. We were talking, all three of us (coaches), and we were on the same page as far as the message that we were trying to get through
Wow, this just makes it worst. If all he has to offer during games are cliches, then I'm not surprised that the players tune him out during games. Maybe the timeout wouldn't have changed the message given, but it sure would get the attention of the players. If the message isn't being listened to during the normal TV timeout breaks, maybe the coach needs to try something different? Maybe show some emotion to get the players to listen? It's the ****ing playoffs and there may not be a tomorrow if you don't get the players attention during a game.

When the Capitals gave up 3 goals to fall behind 3-0, did Bruce just stand behind the bench and stare at the ice?

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04-21-2011, 06:02 PM
  #70
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Like winger23 posted, Murray was unwilling to call a timeout, if anything just to change the flow of the 2nd period onslaught, yet in game 2 with a 4-0 lead, he calls a timeout with 2:02 left in the 3rd.Which game was it more important, the end of gm 2 or the middle of gm 3? Explain that.

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04-21-2011, 06:53 PM
  #71
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I heard that Murray already took the TO in game 4 in advance. First minute, first period, watch for it.

Now, that was obviously a bad joke, but I don't really see how is it that much different from the reasoning in game 3. People do realize that not much could be said during such TO, and that only "the message of TO being taken" is what they were hoping for. Well, Kings finished badly, why not taking TO in first minute of the game 4, just to send a message? Because obviously that's the only way players could "get" the message. There is no way coaching staff could have been able to deliver the message without that timeout.

As for goalie change, I would be more inclined to that action. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't have anything AGAINST timeout, but its importance has been overrated. I am not even sure what is the problem: overrating the message of the TO or underrating the ability of coaching staff to give good advice to the team going down.

Let's hope game 4 doesn't need any Kings timeout.

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04-21-2011, 08:31 PM
  #72
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Wow, this just makes it worst. If all he has to offer during games are cliches, then I'm not surprised that the players tune him out during games. Maybe the timeout wouldn't have changed the message given, but it sure would get the attention of the players. If the message isn't being listened to during the normal TV timeout breaks, maybe the coach needs to try something different? Maybe show some emotion to get the players to listen? It's the ****ing playoffs and there may not be a tomorrow if you don't get the players attention during a game.

When the Capitals gave up 3 goals to fall behind 3-0, did Bruce just stand behind the bench and stare at the ice?
Actually that just confirms what some people have been saying, that the message was being delivered, there was no need to take a 30 second timeout, when the message was being delivered constantly throughout the period.

As far as cliche's, you do realize WHY they are cliche's right???

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04-21-2011, 08:46 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
Actually that just confirms what some people have been saying, that the message was being delivered, there was no need to take a 30 second timeout, when the message was being delivered constantly throughout the period.
OMFG. Message may have been delivered, but it was not being received.

Do you know what is said about people who do the same thing over and over and expect different results? If you want different results, you need to do something different.

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04-21-2011, 08:58 PM
  #74
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Normally, I like to give TM a noogie now and then.

However, I think TM deserved something much harsher than a noogie for not even calling a timeout the other night.

Seriously, TM, wake the **** up!!!

Text your players if you can ****in speak!

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04-21-2011, 11:18 PM
  #75
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I hope everyone saw the change in momentum after the timeout called by Murray.

Kind of destroys everyone saying that it wouldn't have changed anything in game 3.

None of the Sharks goals were scored back to back, yet a timeout changed the course of the game.

Could be a coincidence, but positive **** does happen if you change your methods.

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