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Is EDM a better team than us, now that they have Pronger and Peca?

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Old
08-09-2005, 09:43 AM
  #201
dynastydays
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I'm done. I refuse to get into a one-liner debate with someone obviously chumming bait in the waters. In no way shape or form did I insult either teams chances, or changes. I posted my thoughts on the teams outlooks and I stand by what I said... the personal attack isnt really that personal, I do not know you and maybe was a little harsh... apologies. But evaluate the reason behind it as you wish, putting words in my mouth for the sake of poking the fire isn't something im intersted in continuing here.


Last edited by Badger Bob: 08-09-2005 at 10:18 AM. Reason: removed referenced troll
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08-09-2005, 09:53 AM
  #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abracanada
Ah, okay, I get it now I think. When Pronger is an Oiler, there are other elements to his game that Baron couldn't do in his dreams, therefore the stat does not give the whole picture.

On the other hand, since Regehr is a Flame, he is a bum and the stat does give the whole picture.
What you get is a trip to the nuthouse if you look at Regehr and Pronger in the same stance.
Pronger since he came into the NHL has been one of the better offensive defensemen in the league, played some of the toughest minutes, most minutes, and flat out dominated games with his size and skill.
Baron playes tough minutes but common....

Where have I said Regehr is a "bum"? If you want to make up things in order to make a point, why not right fantasy novels?

Regehr is a good dman on the Flames. I don't see him as their best, and I agree with others on the shift charts, and that Lydman is severly underrated. Is that a bad thing to say? I mean Lydman is on the Flames afterall, so it's not like I'm bashing anybody here.

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08-09-2005, 10:17 AM
  #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abracanada
A downgrade in character?

Since Calgary's final appearance, Martin Gelinas, Craig Conroy, Chris Clark, Ville Nieminen, Oleg Saprykin, Mike Commodore and Denis Gauthier are all gone.

And Amonte, Langkow, Wiemer, McCarty and Phaneuf are in. Tell me, which one of those gentlemen lacks character?

Well let's just say Phaneuf is completely unproven at the NHL level. He's going to be exposed here and there while he learns the tempo of the game. Also that's one hell of an overhaul don't you figure? Going to take a bit for that team to 'gel' as it were.

Let's see no Salo for us. No starting the season with Ryan smyth as center add Peca, no Oates to spoon feed easy minutes to. No concerns about losing face-offs continually (see Ryan Smyth as center). No brittle York. No wasted time with Chimera. A clueless Eric Brewer on the PP is replaced by Pronger. Psst Conklin isn't as good as Markannen, but if you double Conks games he comes out as a carbon copy of Thomas Vokoun stats-wise. Conks might not be that good but Mac T knows when to play him. Hell of a back up, I'd say. If Kipper get's injured at the same time Markannen does your team is going to be exposed to the nth power when we've got Conks and you've got...?. Face it we've got 4 solid lines. Finally, no spare parts.

The PP and PK both went for hell at the same time last year. The PK was solved. The PP with Nedved improved too. If the PP is even just marginally good this year you're going to find a team that's more superior overall than you thought possible.

Some guy on here claimed that the Oilers were Pronger and an AHL team. Nice try but what does that say about a team that has Iggy and Kipper, and still wound up only 5 meager points ahead of us, Tim Horton's league?


Last edited by Boilers*: 08-09-2005 at 10:29 AM.
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Old
08-09-2005, 11:25 AM
  #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Belcriss
prolly about the same as they did for you all through the 80's and 90's
You kinda lost me there. Are we talking recent or 20 years ago now?

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08-09-2005, 11:30 AM
  #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryz
You kinda lost me there. Are we talking recent or 20 years ago now?
Are we talking the Flames team of a year ago or the current one? If a flames fan wants to brag about a potential cup to somebody than expect an Oiler fan to bring up their cups. Otherwise let it die, because as far as I'm concerned anything can happen in the NHL. Some more likely than others of course.

Right now I see the Flames and Oilers pretty close, and that it would be foolish to write either one off. The NW is up for grabs this year, and it could be one of the most exciting seasons in a long time.

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08-09-2005, 11:38 AM
  #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryz
WOW. Just WOW. Being an Oil fan I certainly don't expect you know as much about the Flames as your own Oilers, but maybe you should stop talking. Saying Lydman, Ference and Warrener play harder minutes than the Regher-Leopold pairing. Just stop it. I don't know whether to laugh at you trying to pass off something so stupid, or just laugh at the fact that you are an Oil fan making these claims.
The NHL keeps track of a lot of obscure things... one of them being what is called a shift chart.

The shift chart works as follows:

It tracks the amount of time a player is on the ice. It also tracks who was on the ice with said player (from his team), and also who was on the ice against said player (from the opposition).

Give it a whirl, and I'm sure you'd be astonished about what you'd find.

http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.p...er#post2942314

It's pretty simple to use, and I think igor still has it set up.

It's quite cool what you can figure out with it.

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Old
08-09-2005, 11:57 AM
  #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kruezer
DB, I still would like to see the home/away splits on those minutes if at all possible, I would like to see how much Sutter does want those guys out there, or if he's getting out-coached and has them out there against what he wants.
quick glance through...

teams like Columbus try to avoid the Nash vs Regehr combo... Sutter kept trying to get Lydman and/or Warrener out there against him, and Columbus kept trying to get him out there with Lydman and/or Warrener. Result... Nash had 1 goal and was something like -6 in 4 games. Conversely, in the playoffs on the road (Crawford's matchup), Naslund got 1 goal and 5 assists in 4 games. At home (Sutter's matchup), Naslund got 1 goal and 2 assists in 3 games.

Teams like Vancouver and St. Louis (pretty smart bench managers there with Quenneville and Crawford), really went after Gauthier and Leopold. Sutter was always trying to counter with Warrener and Lydman again.

Regehr wasn't a guy either sutter or good opposing coaches tried to target or get away from. He wasn't hidden per say (as he got fairly similar minutes home and away), but it certainly wasn't Warrener and Lydman like (where sutter got his matchups at home, and many of the good coaches got there's on the road).

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08-09-2005, 03:17 PM
  #208
JonathanK
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Defence-
1)Edmonton 2)Vancouver 3)Calgary

Forward-
1)Vancouver 2)Calgary 3) Edmonton

Goaltending-
1)Calgary 2)Edmonton 3)Vancouver(only because of Cloutier's inconsistency)

When looked at this way, all three teams are almost equal.

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Old
08-09-2005, 04:23 PM
  #209
kruezer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
quick glance through...

teams like Columbus try to avoid the Nash vs Regehr combo... Sutter kept trying to get Lydman and/or Warrener out there against him, and Columbus kept trying to get him out there with Lydman and/or Warrener. Result... Nash had 1 goal and was something like -6 in 4 games. Conversely, in the playoffs on the road (Crawford's matchup), Naslund got 1 goal and 5 assists in 4 games. At home (Sutter's matchup), Naslund got 1 goal and 2 assists in 3 games.

Teams like Vancouver and St. Louis (pretty smart bench managers there with Quenneville and Crawford), really went after Gauthier and Leopold. Sutter was always trying to counter with Warrener and Lydman again.

Regehr wasn't a guy either sutter or good opposing coaches tried to target or get away from. He wasn't hidden per say (as he got fairly similar minutes home and away), but it certainly wasn't Warrener and Lydman like (where sutter got his matchups at home, and many of the good coaches got there's on the road).
Interesting, That seems about right though, Warrener/Lydman being the best defensively with Regehr somewhere in the middle and Gauthier and Leopold at the bottom. Ference is really tough to get a read on, but hey he's cheap and effective, and has stated he'd do anything to play in Calgary, he is definetaly worth keeping.

Another thing I wonder about is whether or not specific player matchups style-wise play a factor at all (such as having Regehr out against Bertuzzi). In other words, do the 'physical' matchups you always hear about actually exist? Or is it just another media invention?

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Old
08-09-2005, 07:08 PM
  #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodsport
Some guy on here claimed that the Oilers were Pronger and an AHL team. Nice try but what does that say about a team that has Iggy and Kipper, and still wound up only 5 meager points ahead of us, Tim Horton's league?
That one needed to be pointed out!!! The fact is that Calgary is based on and rely heavily on their stars. As Iggy goes, so does Calgary, that said with-out goaltending "like the Oilers" they weren't going anywhere. IMO Iggy and Kipper are more important to the Flames than any 2 Oilers IMO. That IMO means that the Oilers are deeper, but not neccesarily better. We will find out soon enough!!!

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08-09-2005, 07:30 PM
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NAE2
Defence-
1)Edmonton 2)Vancouver 3)Calgary
Are you kidding me ?? The Oilers defence ranked higher then Calgary's ?? That is a joke.

Pronger is the best but the Flames depth absolutely demolishes the Oilers.

1) Calgary 2) Vancouver 3) Edmonton

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08-09-2005, 10:23 PM
  #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garfield
Are you kidding me ?? The Oilers defence ranked higher then Calgary's ?? That is a joke.

Pronger is the best but the Flames depth absolutely demolishes the Oilers.

1) Calgary 2) Vancouver 3) Edmonton
Colour me convinced.

I mean, that argument is just so freaking powerful that I have no choice but to agree fully...


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Old
08-09-2005, 10:48 PM
  #213
dynastydays
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
Colour me convinced.

I mean, that argument is just so freaking powerful that I have no choice but to agree fully...

Reminds me of that time Peter volunteered at the hospital ward for children with terminal illnesses.

... haha sorry for the obscurity. "so freaking powerful" just reminded me of The Family Guy, couldnt resist

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08-10-2005, 01:18 PM
  #214
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IMO one big reason the Oilers missed the playoffs was because of the record within their own division. The Flames Canucks and Avalanche with Iginla Naslund and Sakic were able to beat the Oilers strictly because of higher talent. The addition of Pronger and Peca are huge. No longer will the likes of Iginla Sakic and Naslund be able to run free against the Oilers. Peca is going to give these guys fits and turn around and score the back breaking goal to win the tight hockey games. I think Calgary will suffer with the new rules as they have built their team around the NEAUTRAL ZONE TRAP. All in all the Flames still have a good hockey team and I'm definately looking forward to the Battle of Alberta. As far as Flames fans considering Sutter miles ahead of MacT as a head coach. I want to know how many Stanley Cup rings D. Sutter has to his name? Kudos to the Flames going to the finals in 04, but remember Flames fans with the new rule changes you guys could find your team on the outside looking in come springtime as you have come to get used to in years prior to 04.

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08-10-2005, 02:28 PM
  #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kruezer
Interesting, That seems about right though, Warrener/Lydman being the best defensively with Regehr somewhere in the middle and Gauthier and Leopold at the bottom. Ference is really tough to get a read on, but hey he's cheap and effective, and has stated he'd do anything to play in Calgary, he is definetaly worth keeping.

Another thing I wonder about is whether or not specific player matchups style-wise play a factor at all (such as having Regehr out against Bertuzzi). In other words, do the 'physical' matchups you always hear about actually exist? Or is it just another media invention?
Is this statistic a result of being better defensively, or having more speed. Are the minutes played the toughest minutes or are they the minutes played against the most offensively productive (and usually, faster) players? It all depends on the bias of the coach. If the coach believes you need to match speed with speed in order to cope with faster players, you are going to get numbers similar to the ones posted earlier. Is Lydman the best defensive defenseman, or the fastest? Is Ferrence known for his defensive game, or his speed?

Any GM who would use one single statistic like the one being discussed here in order to assign abilities to his players, would be looking to have his pockets picked. There is a reason Regehr played on Team Canada at the Olympics, and Ferrence didn't.

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08-10-2005, 03:01 PM
  #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garfield
Are you kidding me ?? The Oilers defence ranked higher then Calgary's ?? That is a joke.

Pronger is the best but the Flames depth absolutely demolishes the Oilers.

1) Calgary 2) Vancouver 3) Edmonton
Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure it does.


Last edited by Badger Bob: 08-10-2005 at 04:28 PM.
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