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WCQF Gm#5: KINGS @ SHARKS - Saturday, 4/23 @ 7:30 pm | FS-Prime, Versus, TSN, RDS

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Old
04-23-2011, 06:26 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by OK Computer View Post
Is it a coincidence that two straight years TM's seemingly amazing (yes, I will give him that much) regular season D scheme gets exposed come playoff time?

Dumb penalties over and over and over and over again all year long especially by young players = BAD COACHING, plain and simple.

No, but he time and time again puts the wrong guy in the circle for crucial faceoffs, gives Handzus 100 draws in a game when he's hitting at like a 5% clip, etc.
TM could go crazy or bench said player for making mistakes, or dumb penalties. It isn't a sign of bad coaching if he weren't to do so with one of the younger players, like Clifford or Doughty. There is a reason he goes off on Poni, Penner, Frolov, etc. These guys are veterans who should know better then to take dumb penalties, not play well defensively, making ill advised passes. When it comes to the young guys though, you don't want to mess with their psyches by yelling or benching them if they make a mistake or take a dumb penalty. Young players are going to do that. You rather him go off on them, then have those players play tentatively and not be aggressive. I think that would be bad coaching.


Last edited by JR28: 04-23-2011 at 06:34 PM.
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04-23-2011, 06:30 PM
  #102
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I'll be watching through thick and thin, besides this may be the last Kings game of the year and I'm not going to miss it.

My gut feeling is the Kings come out play tough win the game, give us all hope and come back home and get completely dominated by the Sharks, its the Kings way

and **** the ********* briggs and their ****** song

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04-23-2011, 06:31 PM
  #103
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Cmon.....be honest about this, do you really think Toews and Kane are the youth the Kings have ffs?

Seriously, people yell, "Youth makes mistakes" and you come back with what, the #1, and #2 Overall picks in consectutive years, and say, but hey, they won, LIKE ALL YOUTH ARE THE SAME.

My god...seriously bud? You can't distinguish the nuances of the Hawks youth and the Kings youth??
Drew Doughty was drafted 2nd overall. Jack Johnson was drafted 3rd overall. What exactly is your argument? Our youth isn't skilled enough or they are too dumb to be as smart Kane and Toews? And if our youth CORE isn't smart enough, then why does it matter whether they are young or not, make mistakes or not? Or are you assuming that after the top 3 in the draft at the forward position, the player gets progressively dumber and more prone to mistakes? Show me the empirical data on that. While you're at it, remind me in what round Datsyuk and Zetterberg were drafted again?

Claiming that youth make mistakes and that is why we haven't had success is an excuse. Our CORE is not young enough for that out.

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04-23-2011, 06:38 PM
  #104
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Drew Doughty was drafted 2nd overall. Jack Johnson was drafted 3rd overall. What exactly is your argument? Our youth isn't skilled enough or they are too dumb to be as smart Kane and Toews? And if our youth CORE isn't smart enough, then why does it matter whether they are young or not, make mistakes or not? Or are you assuming that after the top 3 in the draft at the forward position, the player gets progressively dumber and more prone to mistakes? Show me the empirical data on that. While you're at it, remind me in what round Datsyuk and Zetterberg were drafted again?

Claiming that youth make mistakes and that is why we haven't had success is an excuse. Our CORE is not young enough for that out.
Again, comparing apples to oranges ffs, Defense is the HARDEST position in the game, harder than yes, even goaltending, it takes young D, easily a few seasons if not 4-5 more seasons to get acclimated to the game ffs...

Funny how you bring up Datsuk and Zetterberg, like they didn't have great mentors in Detroit, tell me again who was mentoring Doughty and Johnson...oh wait...that's right..no one really,

My god, you are going to take this as an insult, but you are acting like you are new to the game ffs. You say you have cheered since 1980, congrats, that doesn't mean you know a damn thing about the game ffs.

Even in Chicago, first year, they LOST, they didn't win the cup automatically, they also had a superb mentor in Savard and Bowman ffs.

If you would just quit comparing apples to oranges, you might make a bit of sense, but if you want to say all youth is the same, you don't make sense, at all.

That's like saying the 30th OA pick has the same talent as the #1 OA pick because they are 18 years old ffs.

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04-23-2011, 06:45 PM
  #105
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This smacks of desperation. Can't coach the team to victory so let's make such drastic changes for the sake of changes that lightning may strike and something good will come out of it. It's like throwing your dick into a crowd and hoping to hit Jessica Alba in the...er...smile.
ha ha... this

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04-23-2011, 06:46 PM
  #106
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How old were Toews and Kane when the Blackhawks won the Cup last season? Who was their captain? Youth, at this point, is an excuse. As is Kopitar.
So? You're taking about a 3rd overall pick and a 1st. Not to mention if either of them had been injured the Blackhawks likely wouldn't have won. Same with the Pens. They won because they had a TWO 1st overall and a 2nd overall picks and guess what... they aren't going to win again without them.

We're one of the best young teams in hockey but lets be realistic. Crosby, Malkin, and Fluery are better then our top-3. We're closer to Kane, Toews, and Keith.... We've got more depth then the Blackhawks except that our best player is out and theirs is still around.

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If YOUTH is the one they use, then they should hang their head in shame for having FIVE & THREE years respectively to develop said youth CORE and fail.
Don't be absurd. Look at the Canucks. The Sedins are getting all this hype, and they should be, but they didn't start to become star players till they were 25-26 years old! 6 years ago people were talking about how the Sedins would be nothing but a great 3rd line....Kopitar has outscored them in each of his first years in the NHL when compared by age! Hell, Doughty as a d-man has outscored them at the same age.

Next year we'll be better. No question in my mind of that.

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04-23-2011, 07:01 PM
  #107
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Lost in all this bickering/complaining, is the fact that the team has actually played pretty well. They've shown that they can more than compete with the Sharks, and I think that's what makes this series frustrating for Kings' fans.

The problem has obviously been defensive break downs, particularly on home ice. It's not a systemic problem, but a mental one. Can TM be blamed for that? I suppose there's a train of thought that says he can, but I'm yet to hear it.

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04-23-2011, 07:03 PM
  #108
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Lost in all this bickering/complaining, is the fact that the team has actually played pretty well. They've shown that they can more than compete with the Sharks, and I think that's what makes this series frustrating for Kings' fans.

The problem has obviously been defensive break downs, particularly on home ice. It's not a systemic problem, but a mental one. Can TM be blamed for that? I suppose there's a train of thought that says he can, but I'm yet to hear it.
I think it falls on both, mainly the players, but TM has to be able to focus them when he sees the game getting away from them...but it's ultimately up to the players to perform.

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04-23-2011, 07:25 PM
  #109
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Again, comparing apples to oranges ffs, Defense is the HARDEST position in the game, harder than yes, even goaltending, it takes young D, easily a few seasons if not 4-5 more seasons to get acclimated to the game ffs...

Funny how you bring up Datsuk and Zetterberg, like they didn't have great mentors in Detroit, tell me again who was mentoring Doughty and Johnson...oh wait...that's right..no one really,

My god, you are going to take this as an insult, but you are acting like you are new to the game ffs. You say you have cheered since 1980, congrats, that doesn't mean you know a damn thing about the game ffs.

Even in Chicago, first year, they LOST, they didn't win the cup automatically, they also had a superb mentor in Savard and Bowman ffs.

If you would just quit comparing apples to oranges, you might make a bit of sense, but if you want to say all youth is the same, you don't make sense, at all.

That's like saying the 30th OA pick has the same talent as the #1 OA pick because they are 18 years old ffs.
I am not saying any such thing. You are. Don't build a straw man. Your "excuse" for their performance is youth. I simply state that is not an excuse. They are not young enough to use that as an excuse and there have been far too many teams with youth as young if not younger than us that have performed in the playoffs.

This performance in these playoffs falls on the team and coaching staff failing. They have underperformed at the most critical time of the season, Kopitar notwithstanding. They have given this series away.

And regarding the "insult", I have accepted that just about everything you say comes with a condescending and insulting tone. I will chalk that up and give you the excuse of youth or lack of maturity. You pick.

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04-23-2011, 07:27 PM
  #110
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So? You're taking about a 3rd overall pick and a 1st. Not to mention if either of them had been injured the Blackhawks likely wouldn't have won. Same with the Pens. They won because they had a TWO 1st overall and a 2nd overall picks and guess what... they aren't going to win again without them.

We're one of the best young teams in hockey but lets be realistic. Crosby, Malkin, and Fluery are better then our top-3. We're closer to Kane, Toews, and Keith.... We've got more depth then the Blackhawks except that our best player is out and theirs is still around.



Don't be absurd. Look at the Canucks. The Sedins are getting all this hype, and they should be, but they didn't start to become star players till they were 25-26 years old! 6 years ago people were talking about how the Sedins would be nothing but a great 3rd line....Kopitar has outscored them in each of his first years in the NHL when compared by age! Hell, Doughty as a d-man has outscored them at the same age.

Next year we'll be better. No question in my mind of that.
The results disagree with your assessment that we are "one of the best young teams in hockey"

For every Sedin example you give me, I will give you three times as many kids who have performed admirably during the season and playoffs and led their teams to success. This isn't a linear analysis. There are going to be examples on both sides. I simply choose not to adopt the "they're too young to be winners" mentality of some. It's that simple.

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04-23-2011, 07:34 PM
  #111
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Yo Zad ...

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04-23-2011, 07:37 PM
  #112
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I am not saying any such thing. You are. Don't build a straw man. Your "excuse" for their performance is youth. I simply state that is not an excuse. They are not young enough to use that as an excuse and there have been far too many teams with youth as young if not younger than us that have performed in the playoffs.

This performance in these playoffs falls on the team and coaching staff failing. They have underperformed at the most critical time of the season, Kopitar notwithstanding. They have given this series away.

And regarding the "insult", I have accepted that just about everything you say comes with a condescending and insulting tone. I will chalk that up and give you the excuse of youth or lack of maturity. You pick.
It's not an insult ffs, you can be a fan and not know anything about the game, hell most people are.

You want to say youth is not an excuse, and then point out extraordinary youth as an example. Then, you say that, Doughty is extraordinary, which he is, AT THE HARDEST POSITION TO LEARN IN THE GAME.

I don't think you quite grasp that, which comes with not knowing the game, otherwise you wouldn't so blatantly point out that, well Kane and Toews are young....

Yes, this Kings team is young, NO it's not the same youth as the Hawks ffs, yes this Kings team will be prone to overexuberance at times, mistakes, mental breakdowns etc.

YES it is a combination of players, staff, that need to focus better, BUT THAT'S THE PROBLEM, youth, they DON'T KNOW ANY BETTER AT THIS POINT IN TIME, That is where Murray comes in, but barring any Darth Vader mind tricks, he can only do so much.

Also, regarding tone, you show me how to put exasperated in a ****ing tone on the internet, and I will do that each time you compare apples to oranges and try to tell me they are the same ****ing thing...deal?

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04-23-2011, 07:37 PM
  #113
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How do you have 2,500+ posts on an internet message board for a hockey team and then go to the icehouse to watch a ****** comedian during what might be said team's last game of the season? For shame.
it was a birthday gift so its either not go to the show with the person who bought the tickets for me and piss her off or not watch the game and piss off nobody.... tough choice
besides...thats what TiVo is for

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04-23-2011, 07:38 PM
  #114
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The results disagree with your assessment that we are "one of the best young teams in hockey"

For every Sedin example you give me, I will give you three times as many kids who have performed admirably during the season and playoffs and led their teams to success. This isn't a linear analysis. There are going to be examples on both sides. I simply choose not to adopt the "they're too young to be winners" mentality of some. It's that simple.

This I gotta see,

Hell,I will spot you Kane and Toews...

Ready....go.....show me other KIDS that have LED their TEAM to SUCCESS.......

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04-23-2011, 07:44 PM
  #115
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Go Kings Go!!

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04-23-2011, 07:48 PM
  #116
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The results disagree with your assessment that we are "one of the best young teams in hockey"

For every Sedin example you give me, I will give you three times as many kids who have performed admirably during the season and playoffs and led their teams to success. This isn't a linear analysis. There are going to be examples on both sides. I simply choose not to adopt the "they're too young to be winners" mentality of some. It's that simple.
I think we are one of the best young teams in hockey right now and will only get better next year, while probably being younger. However I am not using being young as an excuse for losing or the fact that we are without Kopi. The fact is, outside of a couple of periods, the Kings have been the better team in this series. It isn't youth that allowed us to lose a 4-0 lead, the turning point of this series so far. It was a team meltdown, young and old and also a coaching failure. Should that mean the coach should be fired or players be sent away, no. I believe that young teams need to learn from losing, before they can win. Detroit went through it, Pittsburgh went through it, Chicago went through it. Most all Stanley cup Champions or dominant teams year after year have learned this. Even the great Edmonton Oilers learned it, after blowing a 5 goal lead in the third period. Or take a football analogy. The Denver Broncos lost 3 Super Bowls by huge margins, then finally won 2. It takes losing to learn, sometimes badly losing, before you can win. I believe with this series (if we lose) and the 2 losing streaks we went through this season (November and January) have taught this team well. They will learn from this and become stronger in the years to come because of it.

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04-23-2011, 07:50 PM
  #117
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You guys bickering about what you're bickering about, really I just don't get it to be honest. I'm definitely going to watch the game but I'm going to keep myself from getting emotionally involved as long as possible. They have to win this game or take a 2 goal lead at some point to get the emotions out of me that I had the last few nights.

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04-23-2011, 07:52 PM
  #118
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Yo Zad ...
ha ha. Ok, ok. I'll stop. I am frustrated.

I just wrote this elsewhere but it seems applicable here.

Itís been a tough week for our team and fans. Goodness knows, my head is still spinning especially after that game 4 performance. Regardless, let us not forget that we are all Kingsí fans. We want the same thing Ė this team to win. We take their success and failure personally because we are emotionally and financially invested in it and, for some, have been so for decades.

JDM will be at the San Jose game tonight, as I was there for game two. We are not crazy. We do this because we love this team and marching behind enemy lines to cheer the team on is a badge we wear with honor regardless of the series deficit. So, regardless of what happens, letís not forget that we are all on the same team and part of the same cause. We have the entire off season to analyze and dissect what went right and wrong. For now, GO KINGS!

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04-23-2011, 07:54 PM
  #119
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I think we are one of the best young teams in hockey right now and will only get better next year, while probably being younger. However I am not using being young as an excuse for losing or the fact that we are without Kopi. The fact is, outside of a couple of periods, the Kings have been the better team in this series. It isn't youth that allowed us to lose a 4-0 lead, the turning point of this series so far. It was a team meltdown, young and old and also a coaching failure. Should that mean the coach should be fired or players be sent away, no. I believe that young teams need to learn from losing, before they can win. Detroit went through it, Pittsburgh went through it, Chicago went through it. Most all Stanley cup Champions or dominant teams year after year have learned this. Even the great Edmonton Oilers learned it, after blowing a 5 goal lead in the third period. Or take a football analogy. The Denver Broncos lost 3 Super Bowls by huge margins, then finally won 2. It takes losing to learn, sometimes badly losing, before you can win. I believe with this series (if we lose) and the 2 losing streaks we went through this season (November and January) have taught this team well. They will learn from this and become stronger in the years to come because of it.
I hope you're right. From your keyboard to the Hockey God's eyes and ears.

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04-23-2011, 07:58 PM
  #120
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ha ha. Ok, ok. I'll stop. I am frustrated.

I just wrote this elsewhere but it seems applicable here.

Itís been a tough week for our team and fans. Goodness knows, my head is still spinning especially after that game 4 performance. Regardless, let us not forget that we are all Kingsí fans. We want the same thing Ė this team to win. We take their success and failure personally because we are emotionally and financially invested in it and, for some, have been so for decades.

JDM will be at the San Jose game tonight, as I was there for game two. We are not crazy. We do this because we love this team and marching behind enemy lines to cheer the team on is a badge we wear with honor regardless of the series deficit. So, regardless of what happens, letís not forget that we are all on the same team and part of the same cause. We have the entire off season to analyze and dissect what went right and wrong. For now, GO KINGS!
Zad,

Serious question, I don't get the frustration, I mean, I understand the disappointment in not winning, I understand cheering, being a fan etc.

I don't understand from anyone, and not just you though, the frustration.

Frustration to me stems from expectations that aren't met, I am not sure what expectations you can have for any team other than to show up, compete, and be entertaining.

Maybe I have been around the game for so long that I know not to expect things in sports as funny bounces happen, ask Martinez lol.

There are plenty of things to be frustrated about in life in general, sports for me isn't one of them, not even close to the top of the list. Mother in laws, absolutely, a Kings team that is competing and entertaining, not so much...

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04-23-2011, 08:05 PM
  #121
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Zad,

Serious question, I don't get the frustration, I mean, I understand the disappointment in not winning, I understand cheering, being a fan etc.

I don't understand from anyone, and not just you though, the frustration.

Frustration to me stems from expectations that aren't met, I am not sure what expectations you can have for any team other than to show up, compete, and be entertaining.

Maybe I have been around the game for so long that I know not to expect things in sports as funny bounces happen, ask Martinez lol.

There are plenty of things to be frustrated about in life in general, sports for me isn't one of them, not even close to the top of the list. Mother in laws, absolutely, a Kings team that is competing and entertaining, not so much...
That's fair. We can respectfully disagree on such issues. For me, beating a team 4-0, then having a 4-0 lead in the following game only to lose 6-5 and following that up with another 6 goals against performance is beyond disappointment. Disappointment is losing despite best effort, not a total and utter collapse. But, I see your perspective. Reasonable minds can disagree on such things.

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04-23-2011, 08:08 PM
  #122
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Zad needs a hug ... I'd say GROUP hug ... but Crue11 and Shellz and the other ladies aren't around ... so really what's the point

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04-23-2011, 08:12 PM
  #123
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Zad,

Serious question, I don't get the frustration, I mean, I understand the disappointment in not winning, I understand cheering, being a fan etc.

I don't understand from anyone, and not just you though, the frustration.

Frustration to me stems from expectations that aren't met, I am not sure what expectations you can have for any team other than to show up, compete, and be entertaining.

Maybe I have been around the game for so long that I know not to expect things in sports as funny bounces happen, ask Martinez lol.

There are plenty of things to be frustrated about in life in general, sports for me isn't one of them, not even close to the top of the list. Mother in laws, absolutely, a Kings team that is competing and entertaining, not so much...
I am disappointed and frustrated by this series, more so then last season against the Canucks. I would of been fine had we gotten blown out and lost 4 games to none, or we weren't really in it but just happen to win 1 games. The reason I am so disappointed and frustrated is because of the way we have lost games. Going in evevrybody said we would have trouble offensively without Kopitar and San Jose would wipe us out. However the opposite has happened, the Kings have been the better team and the Kings offense has been right up there with San Jose. The frustrating part is that our defense, one of the best in the NHL, has totally fallen apart. San Jose's offense is mostly because of the Kings mistakes and poor defense, whereas the Kings need to work real hard for there goals and have. It is the frustration with the defense, which has been a staple of TM's three years here, has played the worst it ever has in the last 2 games. I believe that, that is the crux of the problem with TM. Not his offense system, but the fact that he preaches defense over offense, home plate, etc and it is the defense that, if we lose the series, will be the reason.

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04-23-2011, 08:14 PM
  #124
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This game is pretty lax for me. If we can grab a big lead or win, the Kings will have won my trust back for their awful choke in Game 3. If they lose or choke another lead, then that's that, I guess.

All I ask for is that Murray, if we lose, doesn't bring up the name Kopitar on his own.

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04-23-2011, 08:17 PM
  #125
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I am disappointed and frustrated by this series, more so then last season against the Canucks. I would of been fine had we gotten blown out and lost 4 games to none, or we weren't really in it but just happen to win 1 games. The reason I am so disappointed and frustrated is because of the way we have lost games. Going in evevrybody said we would have trouble offensively without Kopitar and San Jose would wipe us out. However the opposite has happened, the Kings have been the better team and the Kings offense has been right up there with San Jose. The frustrating part is that our defense, one of the best in the NHL, has totally fallen apart. San Jose's offense is mostly because of the Kings mistakes and poor defense, whereas the Kings need to work real hard for there goals and have. It is the frustration with the defense, which has been a staple of TM's three years here, has played the worst it ever has in the last 2 games. I believe that, that is the crux of the problem with TM. Not his offense system, but the fact that he preaches defense over offense, home plate, etc and it is the defense that, if we lose the series, will be the reason.
I see it differently, the reason why we have been "offensive" is because it seems they have abandoned what has gotten them here, they have tried to play the SJ game the last two games and it bit them in the ass.

They need to get back to what they do, grind, grind, capitalize on their chances, limit the SJ chances, get back to defend, counterattack hockey, THAT is what made them succesful, not trying to out gun SJ.

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