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Keep your Guts & Heart, I'll take skill any day.

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Old
04-23-2011, 09:21 PM
  #51
qwertyaas
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Lack of skill, poor cap allocation and an untimely injury.

$11mil of dead cap space in Drury, White, Boogard, Frolov...

This team needs top-end offensive talent and bad. Problem is it's very tough to land those players outside of drafting nowadays. The one we had from the 2007 draft... Hopefully Kreider and Thomas pan out to their ceilings.

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04-23-2011, 09:23 PM
  #52
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Double post.

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Old
04-23-2011, 09:31 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by SomebodySaveKreider View Post
This series just showed how far "guts and heart" alone take you.

The heart and soul guys have their place, but so do the skill players.
Agreed. The problem is that the skill guys are harder to find and usually MUCH more expensive in terms of talent surrendered (in trades) and cap space.

One problem we're going to face, I think, is that our best "heart and soul guys" are going to be asking for contracts higher than their talent merits. Dubinsky - whom we know is willing to sit for a contract he likes - can argue that he iced the highest minutes of any Ranger forward. His agent will, I expect, demand to be paid proportionate to that rather than to his production.

Same is likely for Cally.

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Old
04-23-2011, 09:35 PM
  #54
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thats still not backing into the playoffs bro.
Meh. I'd argue that getting in only because of the skills competition we call the shootout is "backing in."

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04-24-2011, 12:59 AM
  #55
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The Rangers have skill, just not enough. During the regular season, they scored nine more goals than the Capitals. I watched Jersey win 3 Stanley Cups without an abundance of skill. Heck, the two most important goals the Capitals scored in the playoffs (Ovechkin in Game 1, Chimera in Game 4) were typical hard work Ranger style goals.

Adding skill is important. The Rangers need a center, a defenseman who can move the puck and a sniper would be nice. A return to form by Gaborik would be helpful too. Good news; the two top prospects in the organization are snipers and Del Zotto may eventually fill the role of a puck moving defenseman capably. They have (for all intents and purposes) dead space on the cap that can be pruned to make room. But if you think there's a need for a massive overhaul here, you're crazy. I like the core of this team just the way it is.

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04-24-2011, 01:39 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
Torts is the best coach we have had since I've been a fan (97).

I agree. Torts is getting the blame for this team not being a Cup contender when it doesn't even have the talent to get into the playoffs. But for his coaching, we are out of the playoffs by the trading deadline.

He did a great job. Far more players overperformed than underperformed. Far more. We just take it for granted that Stepan, Boyle, etc are scoring 20+ goals, while McD, Sauer, Girardi, etc are flawless.

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04-24-2011, 01:54 AM
  #57
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.....and so the summer of our great discontent begins.

Not so long ago, I remember watching a Rangers team with loads of talent. They floated thru the '03 - '04 season and missed the playoffs.

It was disgusting. Thoroughly and completely disgusting. It made me sick watching them.

You can have all the skill you want but if you don't have heart, soul and grit to back it up, you go no where.

Stay the course. Draft even better players. Keep the Faith.

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Old
04-24-2011, 02:01 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by bobbop View Post
The Rangers have skill, just not enough. During the regular season, they scored nine more goals than the Capitals. I watched Jersey win 3 Stanley Cups without an abundance of skill. Heck, the two most important goals the Capitals scored in the playoffs (Ovechkin in Game 1, Chimera in Game 4) were typical hard work Ranger style goals.

Adding skill is important. The Rangers need a center, a defenseman who can move the puck and a sniper would be nice. A return to form by Gaborik would be helpful too. Good news; the two top prospects in the organization are snipers and Del Zotto may eventually fill the role of a puck moving defenseman capably. They have (for all intents and purposes) dead space on the cap that can be pruned to make room. But if you think there's a need for a massive overhaul here, you're crazy. I like the core of this team just the way it is.
I think we can pretty much just lock up the thread after this post. I'm not sure what the OP is really getting at honestly. Is there anyone that doesn't believe we need more talented players to win? Nobody thinks we're gonna win a Stanley Cup with a team full of Prusts and Callahans, but we're also not gonna win a Stanley Cup without them.

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Old
04-24-2011, 02:05 AM
  #59
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I really believe that the outcome to this series would have been different if Callahan were healthy.

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04-24-2011, 03:03 AM
  #60
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It depends on who your guts guys are and who your skill guys are.

If you are comparing Patrick Kane to Fedotenko, then Kane is preferable. But if you are comparing Adam Graves to Zherdev, then Graves is preferable.

But in general, a team needs both.

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Old
04-24-2011, 07:56 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Pizza View Post
.....and so the summer of our great discontent begins.

Not so long ago, I remember watching a Rangers team with loads of talent. They floated thru the '03 - '04 season and missed the playoffs.

It was disgusting. Thoroughly and completely disgusting. It made me sick watching them.

You can have all the skill you want but if you don't have heart, soul and grit to back it up, you go no where.

Stay the course. Draft even better players. Keep the Faith.
Which is true--pre-lockout the Rangers were buying all star teams and not making the playoffs--sometimes out of the running two weeks before the postseason started--these teams had not only aging Ranger elites like Messier, Leetch and Richter but also names like Gretzky, Lindros, Fleury, Nedved, Kovalev, Kamensky (who was a big star before he became a Ranger), Bure etc. etc. etc. It's not just skill. The 3rd and 4th lines of the Caps got ample playing time and played well in these playoffs helping their team gain teritorially advantage throughout the series. Many of the Rangers more skilled forwards got crowded out of space and produced very little. Perhaps the Rangers could use a Ryan Clowe to ride shotgun on Gaborik's line? In any case just plain hockey skills is never enough to take a team over the top--there has to be a mix.

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Old
04-24-2011, 08:34 AM
  #62
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seems to me this whole thread is dancing around the real problem and it is a problem we have discussed over and over on these boards.


Sather. The team construct and lack of success is on him and him alone. The horrible contracts that he has given out have handcuffed the team. Instead of making tweaking moves during the season to put us over the hump we have been stuck with 'guys who need a change of scenery' swapping our headcases for other teams headcases.

He has killed this team. If Drury doesn't retire, we still have a bunch of guys that need to be resigned and we still have all the huge offensive holes we have now.

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04-24-2011, 09:05 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Korpicowski View Post
So who has more skill? Gaborik or Callahan? Obvious choice is Gaborik. Who would I rather have on my team? The more skilled player or the one one who busts his ass and lays it on the line each and every shift? The choice is easy.
I agree 100%, but where do you draw the line? At what point do you realize you have picked a team full of Callahans who work hard every game, but sometimes outworking the opponent isn't enough because you don't have the skill to finish?

There has to be balance.

In a perfect world you have a whole team of Ryan Keslers who can do both.

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04-24-2011, 09:10 AM
  #64
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You need both. This thread is ridiculous.

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Old
04-24-2011, 09:18 AM
  #65
Orr Nightmare
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Originally Posted by NYRKindms View Post
seems to me this whole thread is dancing around the real problem and it is a problem we have discussed over and over on these boards.


Sather. The team construct and lack of success is on him and him alone. The horrible contracts that he has given out have handcuffed the team. Instead of making tweaking moves during the season to put us over the hump we have been stuck with 'guys who need a change of scenery' swapping our headcases for other teams headcases.

He has killed this team. If Drury doesn't retire, we still have a bunch of guys that need to be resigned and we still have all the huge offensive holes we have now.
It's true...how hard is it to understand what it takes in this league to win. I don't care how empty our system was when he took over, instead of signing garbage, tank for two years and draft elite players and build from there. Instead he wanted to build with guys with no heart.

I love Gordie Clark and he has drafted very good players but he is not without blame. John Carlson was sitting @ 20 and we went with Del Zotto instead. I haven't given up on Del Zotto but the reason he slide is was because teams were concerned about what was between his ears and this year proved it to be true. Carlson brings offense and defense...he is the complete package...I knew it was going to haunt me.

Sather is a stubborn mule with no recourse for his actions, it's not like the Dolan's give a ****.

I watch Hank give everything he has to this team and he is a guy who earns every cent of what he makes, every cent!

If, I am a GM or owner, I am going to do everything in my powers to try and at least get that guy one ring, because he deserve multiple rings.

We are heading in the right direction but we are still a long way off. Sather needs to package some of our bigger name prospects i.e Bourque/Horak/Hagelin type and land a Backes/Stewart/Nash type. I would be willing to move Gabby but I don't how many GM's would be eager to trade top prospects and take on that salary.

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Old
04-24-2011, 09:28 AM
  #66
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Really? This thread exists?

We just got beaten by a team who plays the same style as us (guts & heart) with more skill on their roster. For all the lauding of how well the Rangers block shots, the Caps actually had one more blocked shot than us in this series. And the blocks were more spread out. Girardi and Staal were the two Rangers with more than 10 blocks in the series (Girardi had 26!!). The Caps had 4 players with more than 10 and their entire top 6 had 9+. The Caps play the same style as the Rangers, they just do it with more skill up front.

This is NOT an either/or conversation.

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Old
04-24-2011, 11:07 AM
  #67
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This is NOT an either/or conversation.
What he said.

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Old
04-24-2011, 11:23 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Orr Nightmare View Post
It's true...how hard is it to understand what it takes in this league to win. I don't care how empty our system was when he took over, instead of signing garbage, tank for two years and draft elite players and build from there. Instead he wanted to build with guys with no heart.

I love Gordie Clark and he has drafted very good players but he is not without blame. John Carlson was sitting @ 20 and we went with Del Zotto instead. I haven't given up on Del Zotto but the reason he slide is was because teams were concerned about what was between his ears and this year proved it to be true. Carlson brings offense and defense...he is the complete package...I knew it was going to haunt me.

Sather is a stubborn mule with no recourse for his actions, it's not like the Dolan's give a ****.

I watch Hank give everything he has to this team and he is a guy who earns every cent of what he makes, every cent!

If, I am a GM or owner, I am going to do everything in my powers to try and at least get that guy one ring, because he deserve multiple rings.

We are heading in the right direction but we are still a long way off. Sather needs to package some of our bigger name prospects i.e Bourque/Horak/Hagelin type and land a Backes/Stewart/Nash type. I would be willing to move Gabby but I don't how many GM's would be eager to trade top prospects and take on that salary.
Very true.

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Old
04-24-2011, 11:29 AM
  #69
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Don't want to start a war, but enough with 4 3rd lines already.


Watching our plumbers playing their hearts out to no avail was not satisfying. To those of you who are pining to get rid of Gaborik, Wolski and Christiansen I say you're doomed to never seeing us win a Cup. I realize these three did not deliver, but relying on Boyle, Prust and Captain Valium to carry you is a recipe for disaster.

Heart and Guts is good, skill trumps both.

Flame away!
Yesterday I saw Brandon Prust skate as hard as he could from behind our net on a backcheck to disrupt an offensive oppurtunity for the Caps, something that some players on this team would never do.

How about, some of our offensive players actually skate back hard to, players like Gaborik, who could have actually disrupted a 2OT goal instead of causing it? There has to be a balance, a team of Wolski's and Christensen's will not go far.

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Old
04-24-2011, 11:36 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by savebyrichter35 View Post
I think we can pretty much just lock up the thread after this post. I'm not sure what the OP is really getting at honestly. Is there anyone that doesn't believe we need more talented players to win? Nobody thinks we're gonna win a Stanley Cup with a team full of Prusts and Callahans, but we're also not gonna win a Stanley Cup without them.
Touche...I was just about to post that you need to have the right mix, and as always happens the pendulum swung from one extreme to another...but finally after all these years this team appears to be building an identity and a culture that starts in the minors, a singular vision throughout the organ-I-zation.

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Old
04-24-2011, 11:36 AM
  #71
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Which is true--pre-lockout the Rangers were buying all star teams and not making the playoffs--sometimes out of the running two weeks before the postseason started--these teams had not only aging Ranger elites like Messier, Leetch and Richter but also names like Gretzky, Lindros, Fleury, Nedved, Kovalev, Kamensky (who was a big star before he became a Ranger), Bure etc. etc. etc. It's not just skill. The 3rd and 4th lines of the Caps got ample playing time and played well in these playoffs helping their team gain teritorially advantage throughout the series. Many of the Rangers more skilled forwards got crowded out of space and produced very little. Perhaps the Rangers could use a Ryan Clowe to ride shotgun on Gaborik's line? In any case just plain hockey skills is never enough to take a team over the top--there has to be a mix.
Read my mind Eco. Exactly who I would like to see on Broadway.

Don't think that will happen any time soon.

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Old
04-24-2011, 11:44 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Lone Ranger View Post
I really believe that the outcome to this series would have been different if Callahan were healthy.
I definitely think they would have played much better, but the Caps were not going to be beat this year. Especially after so many playoff failures in the past..

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Old
04-24-2011, 03:33 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by qwertyaas View Post
Lack of skill, poor cap allocation and an untimely injury.

$11mil of dead cap space in Drury, White, Boogard, Frolov...

This team needs top-end offensive talent and bad. Problem is it's very tough to land those players outside of drafting nowadays. The one we had from the 2007 draft... Hopefully Kreider and Thomas pan out to their ceilings.
You forgot Redden, the worst of them all.

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Old
04-24-2011, 07:15 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
You need both, and this team is a skilled line away from being great.
Oh, just ONE skilled line? Sure, let me get on Amazon and order one up so we can win that cup next year. Hell, I'll buy two and pay the $3.99 extra for overnight deliver with amazon prime.

Oh, I found it - one skilled line. Hmmm, it's priceless. Not for sale. Can't buy it. Must be developed through exceptional drafting (finishing last helps - but not possible for the always "contending" Rangers), occasional trading, and solid development.

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Old
04-25-2011, 07:05 AM
  #75
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You need both. This thread is ridiculous.
Indeed. Flyers were almost knocked out yesterday, against a team with much less skill. Skill alone is useless, much like grit alone.

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