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John Tortorella Discussion (Update: Torts extended 3 years)

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Old
04-24-2011, 06:35 PM
  #951
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Torts was okay this season. He did some things I liked, some things I didn't. I don't think we overachieved.

I'm willing to give him another year.

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04-24-2011, 06:38 PM
  #952
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Originally Posted by gravytrain6t View Post
It's Sullivan.
Fire him or hire a second assistant who can take care of it. I can't take another season with a clueless PP which hurts our momentum in the process.

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04-24-2011, 06:54 PM
  #953
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Did Torts get the players to overachive? Quite possible.

No matter what, with the way our players played; with the way Dubi, Cally, Staal, Girardi, Boyle, Sauer, McD, Prust, Fedetenkot and co played; with Hank, Gabby and co, no freakin way we "overachived" to get into the PO's. Thats just not in touch with reality. Look around us in the standings. What team should have been ahead of us? And do not start with the injuries crap -- some teams with a lot bigger problems then us finnished ahead of us in the standings.

This roster is easily stronger and the roster we had the last time we got into the PO's, if we overachived a lot this year that team must have been heads and shoulders above the 1980's US Olympic team... Seriously.

On some it sounds like we are a "real 1st line center" from being a PO contender. Solid top 8 team. Thats the biggest jokes on all of hfboards. If we could add one real 1st line center to this team we will have as good a roster as you ever can get in the NHL with a cap.

We need a better team. No doubt.

Many of the players we have need to do a better job. Or the coach must be able to get more out of them (Gabby comes to mind for sure).

But the coach must also do a better job. No doubt. To say that he was like "amazing" this season is BS. We should have been a 6th+ if everyone was reasonably healthy. Now we had a lot of injuries and finnished 8th. Thats ok. At the same time we got off to a very good start and I kind of think that with the start we got off to, with the way some players stepped up, we shouldn't have struggled as much to get in to the PO's as we did, even with the injuries, but thats my opinion. Its fair to say that we got a ok result in the regular season.

In the PO's, I think we should have been able to give a team like the Caps a good run. But then Cally was hurt, and I can't really complain on how we played them. I just don't think they were any good, but without Cally and the bad losses we had, we really had no chance and Torts shouldn't get any heat for that.

But no way jose can we call this season a amazing coaching effort and expect to ever win a cup if this is the bar we set for out coach. Torts need to improve too.
I'm not totally disagreeing with you, but the coach can't put the puck in the net. The most he could do is deploy a different strategy on the PP.

This team was very good defensively and worked their tails off.

I fault the coaching staff for PP failures, but it's mostly on the players. Again, the coach can't score goals.

Part of the issue on the PP was no one could carry the puck into the zone. So adding Richards, who QBs the PP, and can carry the puck, would instantly improve the PP.

And after extending our RFAs, we will need to add more skill via the system. Kreider, Thomas, Grachev, Hagelin. It's the only realistic way. There will be rookies on the roster next season.

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04-24-2011, 07:01 PM
  #954
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Originally Posted by Loffen View Post
Fire him or hire a second assistant who can take care of it. I can't take another season with a clueless PP which hurts our momentum in the process.
I hope you don't think that will solve the problem. This team's pp woes go far deeper than the coaching staff.

Look at the teams that are tops in the league every year. They all have good playmakers (we don't really have any of these kinds of players on our top 2 lines), a offensively creative point man (without MDZ, we have none) and just overall better talent.

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04-24-2011, 07:18 PM
  #955
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Originally Posted by Vito Andolini View Post
I hope you don't think that will solve the problem. This team's pp woes go far deeper than the coaching staff.

Look at the teams that are tops in the league every year. They all have good playmakers (we don't really have any of these kinds of players on our top 2 lines), a offensively creative point man (without MDZ, we have none) and just overall better talent.
I know our personell lack a lot things. But there should be a way to find a way with our roster. If not, then god help us.

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04-24-2011, 07:28 PM
  #956
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Originally Posted by Vito Andolini View Post

Look at the teams that are tops in the league every year. They all have good playmakers (we don't really have any of these kinds of players on our top 2 lines), a offensively creative point man (without MDZ, we have none) and just overall better talent.
I agree, Steve Zipay of Newsday summed up this team perfectly in one of his articles, something like "A bucket full of heart, a cup full of talent"

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04-24-2011, 07:47 PM
  #957
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Originally Posted by Loffen View Post
I know our personell lack a lot things. But there should be a way to find a way with our roster. If not, then god help us.
I agree with you here Loffen.

Our talent is lacking, but not to the point where we should be getting 4 shots on 7 PP chances. The guys on our roster are still NHL players.

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04-24-2011, 07:51 PM
  #958
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I like the signing, too often teams fire their coaches with absolutely no back up plan. We definately need some work but we're a young team and are starting to build something. But I agree, PP is a huge problem and must be addressed.

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04-24-2011, 08:03 PM
  #959
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Originally Posted by Loffen View Post
I know our personell lack a lot things. But there should be a way to find a way with our roster. If not, then god help us.
I guess it comes down to what are your expectations. I look up and down our roster and I don't see many people that I expect to be forces with the man advantage. Del Zotto & Gaborik certainly, but beyond that, it's a lot of unproven players that aren't exactly regarded for their for their talent.

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04-24-2011, 08:07 PM
  #960
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Originally Posted by Vito Andolini View Post
I guess it comes down to what are your expectations. I look up and down our roster and I don't see many people that I expect to be forces with the man advantage. Del Zotto & Gaborik certainly, but beyond that, it's a lot of unproven players that aren't exactly regarded for their for their talent.
I agree.

The two players on our team that have the skillset to be forces on the powerplay are also the only two players that, IMO, underachieved this season. It's a chicken and the egg discussion. Did the PP suffer because Gaborik and Del Zotto didn't play well or did they suffer because the PP didn't play well? I think the first option is more likely.

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04-24-2011, 08:11 PM
  #961
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Originally Posted by Loffen View Post
I know our personell lack a lot things. But there should be a way to find a way with our roster. If not, then god help us.
Agreed. Look at Montreal, top ten in PP percentage over the past too years, and they don't have a wealth of high end talent.

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04-24-2011, 08:12 PM
  #962
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Originally Posted by Vito Andolini View Post
I guess it comes down to what are your expectations. I look up and down our roster and I don't see many people that I expect to be forces with the man advantage. Del Zotto & Gaborik certainly, but beyond that, it's a lot of unproven players that aren't exactly regarded for their for their talent.
Things like gaining the zone and setting up should be possible. But this squad insists on dumping it in instead. Whether that is because of the coaching or not, I don't know.

Dubi, Gaborik, AA, Christensen, Staal and even Gilroy all have the ability to gain the line by themselves.

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04-24-2011, 08:14 PM
  #963
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Agreed. Look at Montreal, top ten in PP percentage over the past too years, and they don't have a wealth of high end talent.
Yeah, they must have a great PP coach right? You remember that guy Perry Pearn?

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04-24-2011, 08:14 PM
  #964
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Just caught the addition to the thread title, didnt read through the thread...

3 year extension = the character of this team is A+

and I agree......

Now it's someones job somehow someway to match that character with some bona fide elite skill....

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04-24-2011, 08:14 PM
  #965
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Originally Posted by Loffen View Post
Things like gaining the zone and setting up should be possible. But this squad insists on dumping it in instead. Whether that is because of the coaching or not, I don't know.

Dubi, Gaborik, AA, Christensen, Staal and even Gilroy all have the ability to gain the line by themselves.
Yeah, I find it infuriating to watch them dump it in when they are nearly into the zone and nobody is within 5-10 feet of them.

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04-24-2011, 08:22 PM
  #966
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Originally Posted by bleetch2c View Post
Agreed. Look at Montreal, top ten in PP percentage over the past too years, and they don't have a wealth of high end talent.
A couple of years ago Doug Jarvis ran their PP and that's why it was so successful. Now they have a bunch of guys who can run a PP and who are not afraid to shoot in Subban, Wisniewski, Hamrlik, and Cammalleri... plus Markov who is injured. We have McCabe... I mean they may lack a lot of top tier talent but they have guys who can run a PP, are not afraid to shoot, and use their speed to create plays off the rush or scare teams into giving them the zone to set up the PP. The Habs have much better personnel to run a PP than the Rangers.

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Old
04-24-2011, 08:28 PM
  #967
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Originally Posted by StaalWars View Post
Yeah, they must have a great PP coach right? You remember that guy Perry Pearn?
Haha good point. Bad example maybe, Im just saying that you can have a solid PP without a lot of top end talent.

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Old
04-24-2011, 08:29 PM
  #968
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Yeah, I find it infuriating to watch them dump it in when they are nearly into the zone and nobody is within 5-10 feet of them.
Yeah, typical Rangers PP:

First lose the faceoff in the offensive zone and opposing team clears

McCabe retrieves the puck and dumps in, however everyone has slowed down at the line and no one is close to recovering the puck, opposing team gets the puck and clears

Finally Dubinsky, Gilroy, EC will skate the puck in the zone and backpass to a d-man who is afraid to shoot

I have no problem with dumping and chasing, but the players have to know the personnel, as Fedotenko, Dubinsky, Prust, Cally, and Boyle will skate hard to get a dumped puck

Doesn't work so much with Gaborik, Anisimov, Prospal, Wolski, EC... It is up to the coaching staff to pick the units, when employing a PP with guys who don't dump and chase make sure the puck carrier doesn't dump the puck while these high skills guys stand at the line waiting for a pass

The fact Del Zotto's offensive game disappeared this season really hurt the PP and the team never recovered, however this team cannot go into this season relying on a 20 year old kid to run the PP, a 3rd coach to run the PP should be brought in along with a legit PP QB who isn't at the end of his career (paging Brad Richards).

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Old
04-24-2011, 08:30 PM
  #969
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I agree, Steve Zipay of Newsday summed up this team perfectly in one of his articles, something like "A bucket full of heart, a cup full of talent"
That's pretty simple minded. There's a lot of talent on this team. It's not flashy talent but it starts in goal and on defense. There's not a team in the league that wouldn't like our goaltender and top four defensemen, especially at what the defensemen are signed for over the next few years. Calling it a cupful of talent is trite, reporter speak.

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04-24-2011, 08:55 PM
  #970
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Tortorella's contract renewed. No surprise here.



Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/range...#ixzz1KQrRPL2x

Good.

He deserves another contract for what he's done so far. The team is finally heading in the right direction instead of being stuck in no mans land. Patience people, patience.

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Old
04-25-2011, 02:56 AM
  #971
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It's quite possible Tortorella was responsible for getting the players to overachieve but at the same time "no freakin way we overachieved to get into the playoff's?"

If you're admitting it was possible for Torts to get the players to overachieve with the way our players played (which resulted in the team barely getting into the playoffs), then that in fact, is over achieving (and in touch with reality as well).
So how do we judge, or measure the coaches effort, and where is the bar set, if we're not sure if Tortorella was greatly responsible for the team's effort (or getting the players to overachieve)?

If he was (responsible), the bar should be set much lower than if he wasn't, correct? Right off the bat though, you're admitting that you're not sure.
Slow down.

Natrually their are many aspects of a coach work. And two stands out; (i) working with the players and (ii) setting up a strategy for a team. I am sure Torts did a very good job with (i), but hardly with (ii).

I mean, explain this to me.

1. We have this team. According to many the coach was amazing in getting it into the PO's.

2. This summer we will try to add Brad Richards.

2011/12
1. + 2. = We will get what? A team that the avg. coach in the NHL could get into the PO's or what? And with Torts the amazing coach, we could even be a 5-6 team, or what???

THEN WHAT'S THE POINT? Because if we add Richards, we are done. We will not improve much beyond that. We would be fine tuning at the best the coming years. The kids pricetag will match their play on the ice et c.

It do not add up. 1. We are either good enough to be a solid team. And we have a future. 2. We are not good enough, and we don't have a future. In this case, there is only one reasonably thing to do and thats to gut the team, or you are likely to get caught in a situation like Florida.

I believe in this team. I think Hank have what it takes. Not many teams have a goalie like that. I think Dubi, AA, Cally, Staal and Girardi have what it takes. They can go head to head against any unit. I think Del Zotto will rebound, and give us a punch from the blueline. I think Sauer and McD are clutch. Gabby is a proven scorer that needs to be give a chance to succed. If we can add a 1st line center to this team -- I think the roster would have what it takes to contend.

I think its just BS to say that it was amazing to get this team into the PO's and I think its just BS to say that we should be happy to be a top 6 team in the East if we can get a true first line center.

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Old
04-25-2011, 11:06 AM
  #972
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I know I'm fairly new to this forum, but..

I DO NOT APPROVE.
3 seasons, missed the playoffs once,
got knocked out in the first round TWICE.

We have been struggling offensively the entire time.
TORTS CAN NOT SCORE.

His coaching and strategies do not suit the skill-sets of our
current roster.

This dump and chase is ridiculous.
The line changes are ridiculous.

Can anyone think of two players that
had chemistry with each other other than Staal + Girardi
and MAYBE Prust + Boyle?

BECAUSE THERE WAS NONE.
I am a DIE-HARD fan and want nothing but good for this team,
but this extension makes me upset.

This coach can not get it done.

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04-25-2011, 11:51 AM
  #973
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A couple of years ago Doug Jarvis ran their PP and that's why it was so successful. Now they have a bunch of guys who can run a PP and who are not afraid to shoot in Subban, Wisniewski, Hamrlik, and Cammalleri... plus Markov who is injured. We have McCabe... I mean they may lack a lot of top tier talent but they have guys who can run a PP, are not afraid to shoot, and use their speed to create plays off the rush or scare teams into giving them the zone to set up the PP. The Habs have much better personnel to run a PP than the Rangers.
I'm no McCabe fan, but here's a guy that has earned 1/2 of his NHL points w/ the man advantage. He knows what to do out there. The PP should have improved to some degree in his tenure here and it didn't. What was the point in acquiring him if we're conceding that "he's no Subban, C'est La Vie"?

If there's a common thread to a lot of failed player experiments under Torts, it's that guys who once were regarded as fearsome on the power play pretty much disappeared once they got here. From Redden to Kotalik, I find it very hard to believe that all of them simply forgot how to run the point, rip cannon shots, whatever their specialty was. The constant is the guy(s) drawing up these special teams plays and then telling the group to go out there and execute.

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Old
04-25-2011, 12:11 PM
  #974
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I'm no McCabe fan, but here's a guy that has earned 1/2 of his NHL points w/ the man advantage. He knows what to do out there. The PP should have improved to some degree in his tenure here and it didn't. What was the point in acquiring him if we're conceding that "he's no Subban, C'est La Vie"?

If there's a common thread to a lot of failed player experiments under Torts, it's that guys who once were regarded as fearsome on the power play pretty much disappeared once they got here. From Redden to Kotalik, I find it very hard to believe that all of them simply forgot how to run the point, rip cannon shots, whatever their specialty was. The constant is the guy(s) drawing up these special teams plays and then telling the group to go out there and execute.
I'm far from a huge Johnny Cakes fan, but I have to disagree here.

If there is a similarity in the Kotalik and McCabe cases, it's that both thrived on the PP when playing on the same unit as one, if not more, good or great playmakers (for Kotalik, it was Briere/Pominville/Connolly, for McCabe, Kaberle, Sundin, etc). Neither McCabe or Kotalik were primarily responsible for running the point. In Kotalik's case, the man hardly ever touched the puck on the PP in Buffalo unless it was him connecting on a one-timer. He's one of the stupidest players I've ever seen in my time as a hockey fan. You couldn't pick a worse person to handle the puck at the point on the PP.

In the case of Redden, he was the least important cog in one of the most talented PP units in NHL history, and he was done as a player a year before the Rangers even got him.

This team has no one that even resembles a competent PP QB and they haven't since Jagr. Vinny Prospal, who I like a lot, should not be the primary puck distributor on the PP. Vinny is a hardworking player, but while he's certainly no Kotalik in the smarts department, he's not the most heady player in the league either. He's a good passer with decent vision. You need a great passer with great vision and anticipation. Gaborik shouldn't be touching the puck unless it's the second or two right before he shoots it. When he controls the puck along the halfboards on the PP, nothing happens. He's a sniper, not a playmaker. Need I say anything about the likes of Wolski or Christensen? You can't even make an argument for anyone else on the roster being a puck distributor. Hopefully, next season, Stepan goes back to being one.

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Old
04-25-2011, 12:20 PM
  #975
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Its kind of funny looking at this. You look at a guy like Barry Trotz who has been coaching the Predators since they got into the NHL and has had some rough years but is always lauded as a top coach...yet the Rangers have gone through six different head coaches in the same time span. I'm not arguing about who is better and who has had more success...its just funny to see the difference in patience.

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