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04-25-2011, 11:17 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Apparently going out there and registering a +1 is also "brutal". What the hell was Pronger -5 in the SCF last year?

Gimme a break... your complete lack of perspective and bias remain embarrassing.
The lack of being able to see how overvalued Jeff Carter is to Flyers fans is absolutely brutal.

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04-25-2011, 11:18 AM
  #77
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Sorry if this was addressed somewhere else, but is Carter out for the remainder of the playoffs? Can't seem to find anything about his injury other then murmurs about torn ligaments. Had no clue if they were true or what was going on. Thanks for any info.
All I've read is a strain... and you're probably not going to get a straight answer other than that. Regardless of what it is, there isn't much they can do about knee injuries until swelling goes down and I'd wager we're just now at the point where maybe that has started to happen.

If it's just a strain then guys tend to come back in a few weeks depending on severity.

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04-25-2011, 11:19 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
The lack of being able to see how overvalued Jeff Carter is to Flyers fans is absolutely brutal.
The problem is that empiricism suggests that he's undervalued. Now, granted, if you live in a *ing land of fairies and unicorns like you do, empiricism doesn't have much value... but here in the real world, it tends to matter.

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04-25-2011, 11:20 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
The lack of being able to see how overvalued Jeff Carter is to Flyers fans is absolutely brutal.
Perennial 35 goal scorers who can play center or wing, and are good in their own end at a reasonable cap hit are not as plentiful as you think, and they are certainly not easily replaced. Carter is an important part of this team, you just need to accept that.

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04-25-2011, 11:25 AM
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Really? Carter can't win.



If we only had Ryan Kesler's dominanting playoff presence...

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04-25-2011, 11:25 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Perennial 35 goal scorers who can play center or wing, and are good in their own end at a reasonable cap hit are not as plentiful as you think, and they are certainly not easily replaced. Carter is an important part of this team, you just need to accept that.
He's also the team's best even strength forward by a long stretch when you factor in both sides of the puck. While a team with depth can overcome any one injury, it's silly to suggest that losing Carter isn't a significant blow. We're a considerably weaker team at even strength without him.

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04-25-2011, 11:49 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The problem is that empiricism suggests that he's undervalued. Now, granted, if you live in a *ing land of fairies and unicorns like you do, empiricism doesn't have much value... but here in the real world, it tends to matter.
He is not the cornerstone of the franchise. He is a guy who statistically put up nice regular season numbers but then disappears when the games get more physical and tight. Teams target players like Jeff Carter because they know they can eliminate them from the game by taking the body.

Carter is a good player, statistically he puts up numbers to defend his salary, but the eye test when it gets to be game time and who shows up his value is best used in fising other areas and building around the defense and Briere, Giroux, and Richards down the middle, heck even get Konopka to take over 4th line duties and bring his faceoff numbers to Philly.

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04-25-2011, 11:51 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post


Really? Carter can't win.



If we only had Ryan Kesler's dominanting playoff presence...
Team has shown it can win without Carter and imagine what they could do with a legit #1 goalie, we would be talking about back to back Cups. The talent is there, just missing a piece or two and you have a piece that can get you what you need to fill a void on the roster. It is really all too simple.

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04-25-2011, 11:53 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
He is not the cornerstone of the franchise. He is a guy who statistically put up nice regular season numbers but then disappears when the games get more physical and tight. Teams target players like Jeff Carter because they know they can eliminate them from the game by taking the body.

Carter is a good player, statistically he puts up numbers to defend his salary, but the eye test when it gets to be game time and who shows up his value is best used in fising other areas and building around the defense and Briere, Giroux, and Richards down the middle, heck even get Konopka to take over 4th line duties and bring his faceoff numbers to Philly.
News flash: Carter was a BIG part of the reason Giroux has been so effective this year, as Carter covered up a ton of the weak spots in Giroux's game on the other side of the puck. Carter was a borderline center defensively on that line... just like Hartnell clearly has been coached to drop down way low to help out Briere and the cluster**** he is defensively. Ever notice how often Hartnell is the one covering the area around the net and how rarely it's Briere?

Carter is a solid two-way player that puts up good offensive totals, and has turned himself into a very solid player defensively. Those do not grow on trees. If you subtract Carter from this lineup and bring in a "normal" winger for Giroux, his +/- will drop noticeably most likely.

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04-25-2011, 11:54 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Team has shown it can win without Carter and imagine what they could do with a legit #1 goalie, we would be talking about back to back Cups. The talent is there, just missing a piece or two and you have a piece that can get you what you need to fill a void on the roster. It is really all too simple.
Oh come on. You've been stroking Kesler off for a while now... nothing on his 0 goals and 3 assist performance?

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04-25-2011, 12:33 PM
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Oh come on. You've been stroking Kesler off for a while now... nothing on his 0 goals and 3 assist performance?
He has come up small, maybe he and Carter are more alike than different??

It still does not diminish the goalie issues. Imagine this scenario.


Summer of 2010, Homer at the trade deadline he makes a trade with the LA Kings: Jeff Carter for Jonathan Quick and Wayne Simmonds after trading a 4th round pick for Meszaros.

End result, do not resign Leighton and do not sign Zherdev or give Carcillo his money....


Hartnell(4.2)-Briere(6.5)-Leino(.800)
JvR(1.654)-Giroux(.822)-Simmonds(.821)
Gagne(5.25)-Richards(5.75)-Versteeg(3.083)
Shelley(1.1)-Betts(.700)-Powe(.725)-Nodl(.850)

Total fwds: $32.225 mill

Timonen(6.333)-Coburn(3.2)
Pronger(4.921)-Carle(3.437)
Meszaros(4.0)-O'Donnell(1.3)

Bartulis(.600)

Total d-fense: $23.191mill

Goalies:
Quick(1.8)/Boucher(.925)

Total goalies: $2.725mill


Total salary is $58.171mill.

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04-25-2011, 12:37 PM
  #87
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Makes us a weaker team this past regular season, and who knows come playoff time.

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04-25-2011, 12:40 PM
  #88
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You've always made it sound like acquiring Quick for Carter was such an easy solution.

Why would LA trade for Carter last off-season when their big push was for a scoring winger (Kovalchuk)?

Kopitar, Stoll, Handzus... the Kings didn't need a centre during the last off-season.

** Carter, though he has experience as a winger now, would not have been acquired by any other team to be a winger.

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04-25-2011, 12:53 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Makes us a weaker team this past regular season, and who knows come playoff time.
Goaltending.

And the rest is speculation, Gagne makes them better at both ends and Simmonds is stronger on the boards. Push.

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04-25-2011, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
You've always made it sound like acquiring Quick for Carter was such an easy solution.

Why would LA trade for Carter last off-season when their big push was for a scoring winger (Kovalchuk)?

Kopitar, Stoll, Handzus... the Kings didn't need a centre during the last off-season.

** Carter, though he has experience as a winger now, would not have been acquired by any other team to be a winger.
If Homer had offered up Carter LA would have given up Quick and Simmonds, they needed another scorer, period. If memory serves me correct Handzus has also served some time on the wing.

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04-25-2011, 12:56 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Goaltending.

And the rest is speculation, Gagne makes them better at both ends and Simmonds is stronger on the boards. Push.
The goaltending we got during the regular season was a push with Quick.

Hell, outside of one period Boucher has been good in the playoffs. Biggest problem in this series in some ways has been Lavy.

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04-25-2011, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Perennial 35 goal scorers who can play center or wing, and are good in their own end at a reasonable cap hit are not as plentiful as you think, and they are certainly not easily replaced. Carter is an important part of this team, you just need to accept that.
Unfortunately, he is and when he is depended on in the playoffs and fails, it costs the team. We need to stop depending on the undependable.

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04-25-2011, 01:01 PM
  #93
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If Homer had offered up Carter LA would have given up Quick and Simmonds, they needed another scorer, period. If memory serves me correct Handzus has also served some time on the wing.
They were looking for someone to play with Kopitar.

The Kings also had little confidence in Bernier, since Quick still started 3/4 of the games this season (when it was widely speculated it was going to be close to 50/50).

Trades aren't as easy to facilitate in the real world as they are in video games...

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04-25-2011, 01:17 PM
  #94
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They were looking for someone to play with Kopitar.

The Kings also had little confidence in Bernier, since Quick still started 3/4 of the games this season (when it was widely speculated it was going to be close to 50/50).

Trades aren't as easy to facilitate in the real world as they are in video games...
Couldn't of said it better then this.

I also don't feel Simmonds is a top 6 forward.

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04-25-2011, 01:20 PM
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The goaltending we got during the regular season was a push with Quick.

Hell, outside of one period Boucher has been good in the playoffs. Biggest problem in this series in some ways has been Lavy.
I'm not the biggest Jeff Carter fan, but I tend to agree with this statement. Some goalies around the league have one horrid period and they are back in the net for the next game.

I mean, seriously, I know Boosh isn't Patrick Roy, but seriously, don't we all have bad games?

At this point, trading Carter for a goalie that really hasn't proven all that much would have been a huge gamble at best. I would have much rather waited for the off-season to see if that 1% chance of some GM around the league to claim him as an RFA and we get back all kinds of draft picks. But again, that's me.

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04-25-2011, 01:26 PM
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Not sure how Briere can be ragged on with digs about his defensive shortcomings when he's producing massively and making such a difference where and when it matters most. Last I checked he was a monster last year in playoff points almost breaking a record and this year is among the league leaders in goals. He continues to produce which is his role...he is not supposed to be Joel Otto out there and Carter is not paid to play that singular role either. You can pay sombody 1/3 the price to be defensive in a support role like an Otto or Handzus for that matter. This is not to downplay the importance of being well-rounded just that there are people paid to perform clearly defined roles like Betts and Powe. I don't expect them to score but I do expect Briere and Carter to score and produce to justify their long term contracts. So far Briere is holding his end of the bargain come playoffs apart from one year when he was injured so he gets a pass like Carter just that Carter has more of them...again not his fault but frustrating nonetheless especially when he starts out frustrated and slow before he gets injured.

Yesterday apparently Briere rose up in the locker room and said he was not ready to hit the golf course and went out and backed it up with two goals. Maybe one day when Carter is not frustrated with his lack of production/ROLE or injured we can say the same thing. So far I haven't seen it.

Anyway..here is Meltzer's comments on Briere and JVR who has also "gotten" it and become a playoff force. Hopefully it continues with the both of them if our sucky goalies allow it

Quote:
Win or lose, James van Riemsdyk has been a beast in this series. Meanwhile, Danny Briere has further built his legacy as Mr. Clutch in the postseason.
http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Bill-...42511/45/35459

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04-25-2011, 01:28 PM
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I'm not the biggest Jeff Carter fan, but I tend to agree with this statement. Some goalies around the league have one horrid period and they are back in the net for the next game.

I mean, seriously, I know Boosh isn't Patrick Roy, but seriously, don't we all have bad games?

At this point, trading Carter for a goalie that really hasn't proven all that much would have been a huge gamble at best. I would have much rather waited for the off-season to see if that 1% chance of some GM around the league to claim him as an RFA and we get back all kinds of draft picks. But again, that's me.
I agree with this

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* Peter Laviolette made a monumental blunder in starting Michael Leighton yesterday. I don't think anyone but the Flyers' coach and the goalie himself believed that Leighton gave the Flyers the best chance at victory coming into the game. The immobile Leighton was put in position to fail, and he did. All three goals he gave up were stoppable, but I blame Laviolette more than the goaltender. Starting Leighton sent a message of sheer panic to the team.

Brian Boucher and Sergei Bobrovsky (at least during the regular season) showed an ability to bounce back strong after bad games. Boucher was awful in the first period of Game 5, but he had been excellent in Games 2-4. Boosh deserved a chance to redeem himself with the season on the line.

Somehow, the Flyers lived to fight another day. Boucher was very strong in relief of Leighton until he, too, allowed a bad long-range goal (off a slight deflection of Sean O'Donnell's stick). I thought Boosh looked a little shaky at times in the third period but he was very calm and back in control by OT.

There is no mystery as to whom will be in goal on Tuesday. Laviolette has already named Boucher the starter for Game 7. Boosh is capable of imploding in any given game, but he's also capable of matching any opposing netminder in a given game. Of the three goaltending options the Flyers have -- as the old saying goes, if you've got three goalies, you really don't have one -- Boucher provides the best opportunity for a good outcome in the final game of the series.

It will be interesting to see whether Leighton or Bobrovsky will be the backup goalie in Game 7. Early indications are that it will be Leighton. I would prefer Bobrovsky as the second option if it comes to that.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Bill-...42511/45/35459

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04-25-2011, 01:30 PM
  #98
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I do not understand why people make a distinction between defense and offense... throwing out special teams (and the weak PP neutered the value of a few guys on our team), if you have a guy that creates 60 goals at even strength and gives up 50 goals at even strength, then he has the same exact value to the team winning games as a guy that created 20 goals and gives up 10.

One of the reasons we ended up in the 2 as opposed to the 1 seed slot is because the HBL line lost its mojo in the 2nd half, as well.

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04-25-2011, 01:30 PM
  #99
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why feed the troll?

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04-25-2011, 01:37 PM
  #100
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Unfortunately, he is and when he is depended on in the playoffs and fails, it costs the team. We need to stop depending on the undependable.
Three years in a row with injuries...it's hard to judge his performance when he has terrible luck.

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