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No Calder for Subban

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Old
04-20-2011, 04:02 PM
  #76
Bourne Endeavor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plante View Post
Grabner over Subban is why I know the media has more than a say in these awards.
Grabner should be over Subban. Take into consideration only two rookies have eclipsed his goal total in recent years. They were Crosby and Ovechkin. The fact Grabner ended up a +13 on an abysmal Long Island team is nothing short of remarkable.

I would not trade Subban straight for any of the nominees but they all deserve the award more based on their respective seasons.

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Old
04-20-2011, 04:06 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Whereabouts Unknown View Post
I'm sure PKs eventual Norris will make up for it
Lol yous should calm down and lower your expectations.


Last edited by Forsead: 04-20-2011 at 04:13 PM.
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Old
04-20-2011, 04:12 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
Rookie d-man playing #1 minutes on a good team < 30 goal scorer on a bad team
See what I did there?

First of all, there were only 29 players with 30+ goals in the entire league this year; not even an average of one for every team. I mean, seriously. Grabner led a 73 point team with those 34 goals... outscoring 1st overall draft pick John Tavares, no less. Skinner was only 2 goals back of Eric Staal, who some here would probably give their left nut to sign with Montreal.

I'm lovin' me my PK Subban like everyone else, but guaging minutes played due to necessity from injuries versus an accomplishment that some teams didn't even get from a single player, veteran OR rookie? As for Couture, who DIDN'T play on a bad team, he still out-scored Heatley, Clowe, Thornton, Pavelski, etc in his rookie year while playing on the same team. I don't care if he had the rookie status borderline 25 games under his belt from last year, that's still pretty impressive for a 20 year old (who just turned 21 three weeks ago).

Like I said earlier, stiff year for competition, and doesn't make PK, or his projection for the future, any worse for it.


Last edited by Ohashi_Jouzu: 04-20-2011 at 04:17 PM.
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Old
04-20-2011, 04:40 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
See what I did there?

First of all, there were only 29 players with 30+ goals in the entire league this year; not even an average of one for every team. I mean, seriously. Grabner led a 73 point team with those 34 goals... outscoring 1st overall draft pick John Tavares, no less. Skinner was only 2 goals back of Eric Staal, who some here would probably give their left nut to sign with Montreal.

I'm lovin' me my PK Subban like everyone else, but guaging minutes played due to necessity from injuries versus an accomplishment that some teams didn't even get from a single player, veteran OR rookie? As for Couture, who DIDN'T play on a bad team, he still out-scored Heatley, Clowe, Thornton, Pavelski, etc in his rookie year while playing on the same team. I don't care if he had the rookie status borderline 25 games under his belt from last year, that's still pretty impressive for a 20 year old (who just turned 21 three weeks ago).

Like I said earlier, stiff year for competition, and doesn't make PK, or his projection for the future, any worse for it.
That's like saying "gauging goals scored due to being placed on a higher line due to injury".

While I agree with most of what you are saying, that simply shouldn't be a factor. Who cares why PK played those minutes? The point is he did, and he did a fine job while he did.

I understand why PK wasn't considered, I just think they should make another award for D because unless a rookie D puts up 60 points 20+ being goals, along with a +1 rating or higher, how can he compete with a forward? It makes absolutely no sense.

I think what most people are saying isn't that PK deserved the calder but rather the fact that he wasn't even considered is silly because they never factor in how much tougher it is for a D. I'm not discrediting what Grabner did on a crap team or what Couture did on a good team. They deserved to be mentioned and despite the fact that I think PK could have been mentioned I'm fine with it.

I just think they should make a separate award for rookie D.

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Old
04-20-2011, 04:44 PM
  #80
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This just makes him better.

Every single time he gets put down, he comes back up stronger. He'll be bitter inside (although he's far too classy to complain about it in the meida) about not winning it this summer and he'll storm out of the gate next year, I'd put a lot of money on it. He's a very proud guy who's mission is to be the best he can be, and nothing short of being the best is going to satisfy him.

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04-20-2011, 04:48 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neofury View Post
That's like saying "gauging goals scored due to being placed on a higher line due to injury".

While I agree with most of what you are saying, that simply shouldn't be a factor. Who cares why PK played those minutes? The point is he did, and he did a fine job while he did.
Sure, he did a fine job. Actually, he did a GREAT job at times (while having mediocre moments at others). Still doesn't change the fact that the first two rookies I highlighted played on non-playoff teams (both right at the league average for overall goals scored, to give an idea of "secondary support"), and still accomplished something offensively that only 27 other players in the entire league matched/exceeded... and they weren't EVEN getting top line minutes along the way (bringing it back to your first statement there).

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Old
04-20-2011, 06:46 PM
  #82
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I don't think pk deserved to be nominated tbh. If he has played like he did in the 2nd half in the first half, then maybe, but the 3 ahead of him had much superior years.

This doesn't take anything away from PK. I would much rather have PK on my team than any of the other 3 for now and the future, but he didn't have the year they did.

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Old
04-20-2011, 07:02 PM
  #83
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I agree with the Calder noms. This was a freak of a year in terms of rookie talent. Really great to see that a player with Subban's talent and work ethic couldn't even make the top 3. The future looks bright in terms of NHL talent.

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Old
04-20-2011, 07:57 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habsjunkie2 View Post
I don't think pk deserved to be nominated tbh. If he has played like he did in the 2nd half in the first half, then maybe, but the 3 ahead of him had much superior years.

This doesn't take anything away from PK. I would much rather have PK on my team than any of the other 3 for now and the future, but he didn't have the year they did.
I wouldn't mind some Skinner on this team.. at all. But yea def not at the price of Subban.

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Old
04-21-2011, 01:04 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
See what I did there?

First of all, there were only 29 players with 30+ goals in the entire league this year; not even an average of one for every team. I mean, seriously. Grabner led a 73 point team with those 34 goals... outscoring 1st overall draft pick John Tavares, no less. Skinner was only 2 goals back of Eric Staal, who some here would probably give their left nut to sign with Montreal.

I'm lovin' me my PK Subban like everyone else, but guaging minutes played due to necessity from injuries versus an accomplishment that some teams didn't even get from a single player, veteran OR rookie? As for Couture, who DIDN'T play on a bad team, he still out-scored Heatley, Clowe, Thornton, Pavelski, etc in his rookie year while playing on the same team. I don't care if he had the rookie status borderline 25 games under his belt from last year, that's still pretty impressive for a 20 year old (who just turned 21 three weeks ago).

Like I said earlier, stiff year for competition, and doesn't make PK, or his projection for the future, any worse for it.
There were 29 forwards with 30+ goals in the league this season. But there were only 22 defensemen with 10+ goals in the league this season, and Subban finished tied at 6th (8th if you count games played) with 14 goals, he's among players like Lidstrom, Weber, Boyle, Visnovsky, Ehrhoff, Chara...

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Old
04-21-2011, 05:00 AM
  #86
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"It's just another obstacle that was put in front of me and I had to move it" - this will be P.K.'s response.

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Old
04-21-2011, 05:58 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
"It's just another obstacle that was put in front of me and I had to move it" - this will be P.K.'s response.
I, and others in this thread, don't see this as an "obstacle" in any sense of the word, and I doubt PK does either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
There were 29 forwards with 30+ goals in the league this season. But there were only 22 defensemen with 10+ goals in the league this season, and Subban finished tied at 6th (8th if you count games played) with 14 goals, he's among players like Lidstrom, Weber, Boyle, Visnovsky, Ehrhoff, Chara...
True. And if defensemen were evaluated primarily on their goal-scoring ability, that might have meant more to those who determine the candidates. Also, I needn't remind you that 29 forwards with 30+ goals comes from a pool of players twice as large as those 22 defensemen with 10+ goals (given there are twice as many forward positions on each team to fill than there are defensemen positions). But that's really not what kept Subban off the ballot, so let's not dwell on it.


Last edited by Ohashi_Jouzu: 04-21-2011 at 06:07 AM.
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Old
04-21-2011, 06:44 AM
  #88
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The Calder seems to be an affair for former first round picks. Going back to Gomez's (Yes! THE Scott $7.3M Gomez) rookie year in 98/99, only three winners has been picked outside of the first round, all three of them goalies; Nabokov, Raycroft (lol?) and Mason.

Nothing shocking of course though

Subban is and will be fine for years to come.

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Old
04-21-2011, 10:58 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Edmontreal View Post
The Calder seems to be an affair for former first round picks. Going back to Gomez's (Yes! THE Scott $7.3M Gomez) rookie year in 98/99, only three winners has been picked outside of the first round, all three of them goalies; Nabokov, Raycroft (lol?) and Mason.

Nothing shocking of course though

Subban is and will be fine for years to come.
That's an interesting catch, actually. I hadn't given it much consideration before, but I suppose there likely is some "bias" towards players who are drafted highly and subsequently immediately seem to live up to those expectations.

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04-21-2011, 11:41 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I, and others in this thread, don't see this as an "obstacle" in any sense of the word, and I doubt PK does either.



True. And if defensemen were evaluated primarily on their goal-scoring ability, that might have meant more to those who determine the candidates. Also, I needn't remind you that 29 forwards with 30+ goals comes from a pool of players twice as large as those 22 defensemen with 10+ goals (given there are twice as many forward positions on each team to fill than there are defensemen positions). But that's really not what kept Subban off the ballot, so let's not dwell on it.
I used the word obstacle because that's what he said in his Nike video

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Old
04-21-2011, 01:06 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
I used the word obstacle because that's what he said in his Nike video
Aaaah, gotcha.

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Old
04-21-2011, 01:14 PM
  #92
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Expected, the nominees have been really good.

Another breaking news: no Bruins for the Lady Bing

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Old
04-21-2011, 05:17 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
True. And if defensemen were evaluated primarily on their goal-scoring ability, that might have meant more to those who determine the candidates.
He finished 1st rookie D in most categories, finished the season with a 2,38 GAA with 22+ minutes of gameplay on average. In comparison, Norris candidate Visnovsky has a 2,32 GAA, Chara 2,36, Weber 2,31 who all play in front of very good goalies, and guys like Doughty 2,56 and Lidstrom 3,05 who've had worst defensive numbers than Subban. Point is, Subban is among the 20 best Ds defensively. What kills his +/- is the lack of offensive support he got, which makes his GF collumn much lower than the guys I just named who all had 100+ GF while Subban got 77, but if you consider the lineups, it's not surprising Subban didn't get as many GF when he was on the ice than these other dmen.

Quote:
Also, I needn't remind you that 29 forwards with 30+ goals comes from a pool of players twice as large as those 22 defensemen with 10+ goals (given there are twice as many forward positions on each team to fill than there are defensemen positions).
And Subban finished 6th among 200+ defensemen. Bowman said himself that the primary factor for winning in the new NHL is shots from the point. Not only did he finish 6th for goals, he also finished 8th for shots by a dmen.

Sure, he's lacking some overall stats to be a Norris candidate, but damn, he's got high defensive numbers that only two dozen dmen have in the league (for those who play more than 20 minutes), and finished among the best goal scorers for Dmen. For a rookie season, it is tremendous.

Quote:
But that's really not what kept Subban off the ballot, so let's not dwell on it.
What kept Subban off the ballot is the same thing that kept Ryder from winning it in 2004 over Raycroft.

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Old
04-26-2011, 09:52 PM
  #94
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Hard to give rookie of the year to Subban since he never received a rookie season. He was automatically crowned an allstar this year. You will never hear a rookie so much hated in other rinks than this guy. I'm proud to have him on our team and wouldn't trade him for any of the nominees.

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Old
04-26-2011, 10:11 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by CrazyShea View Post
Hard to give rookie of the year to Subban since he never received a rookie season. He was automatically crowned an allstar this year. You will never hear a rookie so much hated in other rinks than this guy. I'm proud to have him on our team and wouldn't trade him for any of the nominees.
His skating is just superior and his senses are off the chart! He has charisma to boot and a flair for the show. I too wouldn't trade him for any of the nominees.

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Old
04-26-2011, 10:32 PM
  #96
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Pretty obvious the writers made a mistake. A big one.

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Old
04-26-2011, 10:36 PM
  #97
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Subban had a crazy game tonight. He looked ridiculously good out there. I felt he definitely deserved a star there.

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Old
04-26-2011, 10:48 PM
  #98
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Mr overrated played 27:08

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Old
04-26-2011, 10:50 PM
  #99
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Subban had a crazy game tonight. He looked ridiculously good out there. I felt he definitely deserved a star there.
Best player on the ice... again.

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Old
04-26-2011, 11:32 PM
  #100
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Obviously, this league has no idea how to judge a d-man to a forward, they have no idea of the complexity and the difficulty of the defensive postion when in PK's case, he had to take over Markov and Gorges absences and Spacek later on. Everybody would agree that as a freakin rookie, the guy ended a #1 d-man ON A TEAM THAT EVENTUALLY MADE THE PLAYOFFS.

Not Skinner nor Grabner's fault, and in Skinner's case it's tough to debate it, but they didn't make the playoffs. And especially in Grabner's case....isn't it a little easier to play a guy when you don't make the playoffs? Where's the pressure? While Subban had all the pressure in the world.

Anyway, it is the NHL. When a defenceman award will often if not always be given to a d-man with top 5 stats. When you can maybe finish 10th but could be the best defensive d-man in the game. So since the league can't respect that, as much as they need a defensive forward award, they'll need a defensive d-man one too....
... Carolina was fighting til' the end. As an 18 year old, I'd say Skinner,s campaign was more impressive that Subban's. The fact that he was able to maintain his level of play consistently over the whole season is an added bonus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
You do know that the main HF board is actually filled with the most Habs haters in both countries? You also know that Subban is, the most hated player in this board as well do you?

Of course, they'll take Skinner over Subban....You don't think there's any bias over there?
Put your red white and blue glasses down for a second, perhaps there's a more legit reason as to why most would pick Skinner, experts, journalists and HFBoarders alike.

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