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Old
04-27-2011, 06:31 AM
  #1
chosen
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Youth Has Been Served

What a lot of us have been waiting for is already here. The Rangers team is now flush with youth. Some Sather apologists have been telling us since the beginning that he will do a great job. Others have said it's all about what he has done since the lockout.

Well, next year it's put up or shut up time. Dubinsky and Callahan are in their primes. Anisimov has a couple of seasons under his belt. Stepan has a year in the league. And so forth.

There can be little doubt that Sather has put together a great young group of defensive defensemen and forwards that bring it every night, except for Gaborik and Avery.

However, it is time for offensive forces to emerge, lest all of this fall into yet another abyss. Anyone who offers up excuses next year will be spitting into the wind, even if they are not aware of it.

I realize we are stuck with Sather unless he is uncovered as the Gilgo Beach serial killer, but at some point everyone has to stop cutting him slack. Hopefully it all works next season and some of these youngsters start putting up numbers, but I still don't see a finisher out there.

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04-27-2011, 07:27 AM
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problem is the same that is has been for awhile...it's difficult to draft star, 1st line talent when you're drafting around 20.

Of course when the Rangers do get that talent, something horrible happens (I'm firmly convinced this wouldn't be nearly so much a problem if Cherepanov was around). Or, the drafting of McIlrath over someone like Tarasenko could come back to hurt us...but for the most part, the Rangers haven't been in the position to draft the talent they need to step up

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04-27-2011, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
problem is the same that is has been for awhile...it's difficult to draft star, 1st line talent when you're drafting around 20.

Of course when the Rangers do get that talent, something horrible happens (I'm firmly convinced this wouldn't be nearly so much a problem if Cherepanov was around). Or, the drafting of McIlrath over someone like Tarasenko could come back to hurt us...but for the most part, the Rangers haven't been in the position to draft the talent they need to step up
Exactly, mid first round is always either high risk or solid character guys. We have a bunch of the latter. Not that it's a bad thing but we havent been in a position to draft top line talent aside from cherryRIP. Not that I don't agree with the dmac pick but that was our shot to draft top end talent(tarasenko)

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04-27-2011, 07:39 AM
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agreed

But I have a hard time seeing the Rangers getting past the 2nd round next season.

After all this time we still have to temper our expectations becasue although we made a good step towards building from within the organization and icing young, hard-working players, we do not have the caliber of players in the forward positions required to go deep.

We did not do well in years past with the draft, and we are paying the price now. Once again, we need an elite UFA to come in and perform a miracle.

Sather blew it big time. Years ago.

NY press needs to call him out. It's a travesty.

I'm still going to get my tickets and go to games and enjoy this group of players because we will win some games, but long-term we are not going to come close to a SC finals appearance.

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04-27-2011, 08:08 AM
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Well, next year it's put up or shut up time.
Sather is indeed going to have to earn his money this year if he's going to make improvements to the team that will allow it to take the next step.

A few weeks back, a quote was posted about how, and I'm paraphrasing here, some of the stockpiled youth could be shopped in an effort to bring back an offensive threat under contract. It might be the most painful way to fill the void, but certainly an easier road than buyouts and UFA negotiations for a cap-strapped team. Thoughts on who might be this team's most valuable commodity to trade in a draft day or summer deal?

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04-27-2011, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Blueshirt Special View Post
But I have a hard time seeing the Rangers getting past the 2nd round next season.

After all this time we still have to temper our expectations becasue although we made a good step towards building from within the organization and icing young, hard-working players, we do not have the caliber of players in the forward positions required to go deep.

We did not do well in years past with the draft, and we are paying the price now. Once again, we need an elite UFA to come in and perform a miracle.

Sather blew it big time. Years ago.

NY press needs to call him out. It's a travesty.

I'm still going to get my tickets and go to games and enjoy this group of players because we will win some games, but long-term we are not going to come close to a SC finals appearance.
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. We've got 2 excellent young centers in Ani and Steps, who haven't even begun to hit their stride.

Will they be a #1 superstar C? Maybe, maybe not, but I like how they're moving along. Behind defense, Center is the hardest position to learn.

I also disagree with the drafting part. Kreider is imo going to be a speed demon, and I honestly think McI will be a mean shut down puck clearing top 4 defenseman. Something every team needs and we currently lack.

We blew it with Jessiman. But I believe we've been doing a good job in the past few years. If we can fill out a second/third line, and get the bad contracts off the books, I'm ok with filling in our 1st with vets as long as they perform to their contract.

I'm on the fence about Richards, but I'm starting to warm to the idea of him playing here.

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04-27-2011, 08:20 AM
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If they can land Richards which I know is a big IF then they are set at C for the next 3 plus yrs

Richards is a legit #1, Stepan and Anisimov have great potential as a number 2 and very solid #3. Boyle is a wild card still but as a 4th that's great plus he could slide to wing if they need to get him more time.

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04-27-2011, 08:35 AM
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I love the youth here but i have come to terms with the fact that we will always be looking for top talent through UFAs because this team wont pull a Pittsburgh/Washington/Chicago to get a high pick.

Just the way it is going to be.

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04-27-2011, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
problem is the same that is has been for awhile...it's difficult to draft star, 1st line talent when you're drafting around 20.
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Originally Posted by Rangerdanger20 View Post
Exactly, mid first round is always either high risk or solid character guys.
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Originally Posted by skroob View Post
I love the youth here but i have come to terms with the fact that we will always be looking for top talent through UFAs because this team wont pull a Pittsburgh/Washington/Chicago to get a high pick.
Good teams find talent.

Getzlaf, Perry, Parise, Giroux, Kessler were all late first round picks.

Datsyku, Zetterberg, Eriksson, Sharp, Lucic, Bergeron were second round or later picks. St. Louis wasn't even drafted.

Sure it's easier to find top talent when you're drafting in the top five, but that's not an excuse. That's one of the serious flaws in the Sather tenure — he's not had great success drafting in the first round and he has unearthed talent late.
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04-27-2011, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Good teams find talent.

Getzlaf, Perry, Parise, Giroux, Kessler were all late first round picks.

Datsyku, Zetterberg, Eriksson, Sharp were second round or later picks. St. Louis wasn't even drafted.

Sure it's easier to find top talent when you're drafting in the top five, but that's not an excuse.
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Come on, you know the odds. Its the difference between hitting PowerBall and playing a roulette wheel at 00 at a casino. Both offer big paydays, and both have a chance of busting, but which one has the better odds of walking away with some coin at the end of the night???

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04-27-2011, 08:52 AM
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Come on, you know the odds. Its the difference between hitting PowerBall and playing a roulette wheel at 00 at a casino. Both offer big paydays, and both have a chance of busting, but which one has the better odds of walking away with some coin at the end of the night???
So are the Red Wings just lucky then?

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04-27-2011, 08:53 AM
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Come on, you know the odds. Its the difference between hitting PowerBall and playing a roulette wheel at 00 at a casino. Both offer big paydays, and both have a chance of busting, but which one has the better odds of walking away with some coin at the end of the night???
I do know the odds. What are the odds that there would have been over a decade of drafts under Sather and no top talent here? Other teams find it. Combined with the lack of success in the first round and you have a team very much like the one you see before you now.

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04-27-2011, 08:53 AM
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So are the Red Wings just lucky then?
Or the Ducks or the Nucks or the Flyers.

Carter and Richards weren't even high first round picks. Letang was a 3rd round pick.

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04-27-2011, 08:56 AM
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So are the Red Wings just lucky then?
Or are the Thrashers just ridiculously unlucky?

If only it was as easy as drafting early, then putting your feet up and letting the Cups start rolling in.

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04-27-2011, 08:57 AM
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Or the Ducks or the Nucks or the Flyers.

Carter and Richards weren't even high first round picks.
There are plenty of examples, our own Henrik Lundqvist is a fine one as well.

It is also worth mentioning that we very sadly lost what may have been our top-end talent in Cherepanov. Either way it is just speculation.

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04-27-2011, 08:59 AM
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There are plenty of examples, our own Henrik Lundqvist is a fine one as well.

It is also worth mentioning that we very sadly lost what may have been our top-end talent in Cherepanov. Either way it is just speculation.
Cherepanov was indeed a loss. That said, if the fate of this team hung on one guy, it's still in pretty bad shape.

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04-27-2011, 09:21 AM
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Or are the Thrashers just ridiculously unlucky?

If only it was as easy as drafting early, then putting your feet up and letting the Cups start rolling in.
1999 1* Patrik Štefan Center Czech Republic Long Beach Ice Dogs (IHL)
2000 2 Dany Heatley Left wing Canada University of Wisconsin (WCHA)
2001 1* Ilya Kovalchuk Left wing Russia Moscow Spartak (RSL)
2002 2 Kari Lehtonen Goaltender Finland Jokerit Helsinki (SM-liiga)
2002 30 Jim Slater Center United States Michigan State University (CCHA)
2003 8 Braydon Coburn Defense Canada Portland Winter Hawks (WHL)
2004 10 Boris Valábik Defense Slovakia Kitchener Rangers (OHL)
2005 16 Alex Bourret≠ Right wing Canada Lewiston Maineiacs (QMJHL)
2006 12 Bryan Little Center Canada Barrie Colts (OHL)
2007 No Pick
2008 3 Zach Bogosian Defense United States Peterborough Petes (OHL)
2008 29 Daultan Leveille≠ Center Canada St. Catharines Falcons (GHJHL)
2009 4 Evander Kane Center Canada Vancouver Giants (WHL)
2010 8 Alexander Burmistrov Center Russia Barrie Colts (OHL)

they haven't done too bad for themselves.

It all comes down to this. If the Thrashers still had Heatley and Kovalchuk, they'd be a HELL of a lot better than they are today. If those 2 had developed together, grown together, and the Thrashers had developed a winning tradition with those 2 franchise players, things would have been very different today. Unfortunately Heatley got into a car accident, killed his best friend, and needed to get away from Atlanta. then it was Kovalchuk and Hossa, and Hossa wasn't going to stay here, he had no loyalty to the city of Atlanta as a high draft pick and coming through the organization.


Thrashers haven't been great drafting, but they haven't been all that awful either

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04-27-2011, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Cherepanov was indeed a loss. That said, if the fate of this team hung on one guy, it's still in pretty bad shape.
how different would the Penguins be if Crosby, Malkin, or Fleury were in some way shape or form unable to play?

Zetterberg, Lidstrom, Datsyuk...take one of those guys off that team forever, how different is their story?


To say losing a franchise type player, and yes I believe Cherepanov was a franchise type player, doesnt drastically alter the course of a teams future is to be terribly naive.

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04-27-2011, 09:33 AM
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how different would the Penguins be if Crosby, Malkin, or Fleury were in some way shape or form unable to play?

Zetterberg, Lidstrom, Datsyuk...take one of those guys off that team forever, how different is their story?


To say losing a franchise type player, and yes I believe Cherepanov was a franchise type player, doesnt drastically alter the course of a teams future is to be terribly naive.
We're seeing how the Pens are without Crosby and Malkin. Besides, are you really trying to compare Cherepanov to thoes two? Or to Lidstrom, Zetterberg or Datsyuk?

The fact is Cherepanov may have been a franchise type player. He also may not have been. But to put him in the category of the guys you are when he never played an NHL game is naive.

You are naming two teams with more than one franchise type player. How come Sather hasn't managed to do the same? Where is the top offensive talent?

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04-27-2011, 09:34 AM
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Well, judging from what Tortorella said yesterday, it doesn't seem like they believe Kreider or Thomas will be that guy who's going to be a legit goal scorer. He clearly said that they don't have that kind of player in their system. Doesn't mean they won't be good players, but obviously not the game changers the Rangers so desperately need. So it will be interesting to see what happens going forward.

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04-27-2011, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
We're seeing how the Pens are without Crosby and Malkin. Besides, are you really trying to compare Cherepanov to thoes two? Or to Lidstrom, Zetterberg or Datsyuk?

The fact is Cherepanov may have been a franchise type player. He also may not have been. But to put him in the category of the guys you are when he never played an NHL game is naive.

You are naming two teams with more than one franchise type player. How come Sather hasn't managed to do the same? Where is the top offensive talent?
do you think he's a franchise player? i think it comes down to that. do you think he was capable of being a franchise player. I do, Jagr did, so that's the basis of my argument. Pick any name from any team if those names i mentioned ruffle your feathers.

Nash, Thornton, Kovalchuk, Ovechkin, Lundqvist, Parise, etc


pick whichever one you want, and my argument remains the same. Take them off their roster and does the franchises history change?

Was Parise a franchise player before he got into the league? no. Cherepanov, before he died, was playing at the same pace Jaromir Jagr was over there.

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04-27-2011, 09:42 AM
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Well, judging from what Tortorella said yesterday, it doesn't seem like they believe Kreider or Thomas will be that guy who's going to be a legit goal scorer. He clearly said that they don't have that kind of player in their system. Doesn't mean they won't be good players, but obviously not the game changers the Rangers so desperately need. So it will be interesting to see what happens going forward.
I think Kreider has that potential...but potential isn't enough. You need to realize that potential. Kreider has a very high ceiling, and a nice floor to his game, but right now hes playing at a level closer to his floor then his ceiling...hes a kid, he'll improve, how much? well who knows. either way none of the players in our organization are close to being franchise players at the moment. NONE.

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04-27-2011, 09:48 AM
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do you think he's a franchise player? i think it comes down to that. do you think he was capable of being a franchise player. I do, Jagr did, so that's the basis of my argument. Pick any name from any team if those names i mentioned ruffle your feathers.

Nash, Thornton, Kovalchuk, Ovechkin, Lundqvist, Parise, etc


pick whichever one you want, and my argument remains the same. Take them off their roster and does the franchises history change?

Was Parise a franchise player before he got into the league? no. Cherepanov, before he died, was playing at the same pace Jaromir Jagr was over there.
I'm not really sure where you're taking this argument.

I really don't know if he was a franchise player. How am I supposed to answer that question? He never played a game for this team. So, to compare him to the others you have mentioned who are established stars, doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Regardless, the loss of one guy who never played a game for the team can't be compared to players who have and are made a huge impact in this league.

Cherepanov's death certainly can't be used a the reason there's no top offensive talent. I'm not saying you don't need talent. I am saying that its possible to get top talent outside of picking in the top five. Other teams have managed to do it. This GM has not.

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04-27-2011, 09:51 AM
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I really don't know if he was a franchise player. How am I supposed to answer that question?

I'm not really sure where you're taking this argument? I'm not saying you don't need talent. I am saying that its possible to get top talent outside of picking in the top five. Other teams have managed to do it. This GM has not.
your exact words were "if the fate of this team hung on one guy, it's still in pretty bad shape."

To me, that's an incredibly naive thing to say. the fate of EVERY franchise hangs on 1 guy. Take the top, or 2nd best guy off of any team and their "fate" as you said can be radically different.

is it possible to get top talent outside of the top 5? sure. but is it easier to win a raffle with 1 ticket? or with 1000 tickets? take a look at the list of the top 50 offensive players in the NHL, how many of them were drafted after the top 10?

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04-27-2011, 10:00 AM
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I don't know what you mean by one player (Cherepanov) making or breaking the team. I don't think there's some magical line you can draw that says any one player suddenly "makes" a team.

But Cherepanov would have been that first line talent to match picks like Carter, Getzlaf, etc. Doesn't mean the Rangers have done great drafting overall, but it certainly helps if you can land a first round talent there and have something to help build the top talent the Rangers are missing.

The Rangers have also skewed on drafting defensemen in the first round lately so it's kinda hard to directly compare some of this stuff. They got a great defenseman in Staal, and they got a very skilled guy in Del Zotto that is not yet a bust despite the short attention spans of this board, etc. It took Letang 4 years in the NHL to exceed what Del Zotto did in his first year, yet we hold Letang up as this amazing defensemen and view Del Zotto as hovering on the edge of busting?

That last part isnt' directed right at you, Singin, it's just an expression of frustration with how this board works. The Rangers have been middle of the road in a lot of their drafting for awhile and it's got them to be a middle of the road team. That's fine...I actually really like the core group of players and think if they could put a legit skilled top line onto this team they'd become viable as a cup team, but I'll never disagree that they need to do a better job identifying those top line talents in the draft. Another reason I'm STILL pissed they passed on Tarasenko even though I don't hold anything against McIlrath personally.

but at the same time I don't really feel the need to bash the team a lot either...they've done OK putting together a team at this point from a lot of draft picks and trading for some key guys. Like I said, I like the core group, I'm OK with that job done. Just find a way to get some top talent at this point

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