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04-27-2011, 11:23 AM
  #76
LamoTheKid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jersey Girl View Post
Well, when people put out gigantic lists of failures by teams that have very good overall drafting histories, the connotation is that it's all a crapshoot...and it's not.
I disagree, until a guy straps on his skates and plays in the NHL it absolutely is a complete crapshoot.

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04-27-2011, 11:28 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
You should care. It still directly impacts what this team is now.
The simple fact you REFUSE to acknowledge, is that the current roster is FULL of talent that made their NHL debut with the Rangers.

And there will continue to be more players.

You want to complain about who was drafted in 2003, to each his own, i'll enjoy the progression of the team NOW and in the future.

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04-27-2011, 11:29 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
I'm not saying that they've been bad at drafting. I'm saying they've been unable to convert "good" drafting and high picks into success of any kind. Some NYR fans would lead you to believe that high draft picks are the only thing that are holding back the Rangers. They've said so in this thread.

It's like the pre-cap days when a certain GM in Edmonton said he'd be able to build a Cup contender with the NYR payroll. It's not that simple.
Exactly. This is why I referenced the amount of playoff series victories to support our great drafting. People want to say we have to wait and see what our draft picks do, but the Caps, who have not been drafting highly lately, have already had two goalies who were drafted in 2006 (Varlamov and Neuvirth) knock us out of the playoffs, and a guy like John Carlson (drafted in 2008) step in and also play well.

At some point drafting has to equate to success on the ice.

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04-27-2011, 11:30 AM
  #79
Melrose_Jr.
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
I don't give a **** about the PRE lockout era. You know why? We aren't there.

Let's look at the draft history since 2004.

Let's look at the current and future roster.

Your argument is nothing but whining and complaining about spilled milk.
You should run down the roster of a team like Vancouver and look at the draft dates of the horses that carry that team year after year. Outside of Burrows, that teams' top players are all pre-lockout NHL'ers.

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04-27-2011, 11:33 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Jersey Girl View Post
Well, when people put out gigantic lists of failures by teams that have very good overall drafting histories, the connotation is that it's all a crapshoot...and it's not.
No you see, that's where you are wrong.

Those lists show you exactly why EVERY team overall is NOT good at drafting.

90+% of EVERY player drafted never sniffs the Pro level. Of those players an even lesser percentile make any kind of impact in the NHL or last in the NHL. An even lesser percentile become stars in the league.

This is what you don't get.

Even the almighty Red Wings fail much more then they succeed.

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04-27-2011, 11:34 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
You should run down the roster of a team like Vancouver and look at the draft dates of the horses that carry that team year after year. Outside of Burrows, that teams' top players are all pre-lockout NHL'ers.
Uh huh.

And, what exactly have they accomplished that the Rangers haven't?

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04-27-2011, 11:36 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
No you see, that's where you are wrong.

Those lists show you exactly why EVERY team overall is NOT good at drafting.

90+% of EVERY player drafted never sniffs the Pro level. Of those players an even lesser percentile make any kind of impact in the NHL or last in the NHL. An even lesser percentile become stars in the league.
Not disputing that.

Quote:
This is what you don't get.

Even the almighty Red Wings fail much more then they succeed.
...and this is what you don't get. It's not a question of which team succeeds more than they fail. The answer is none.

The question is which team has a higher success rate compared to other teams' success rate.

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04-27-2011, 11:37 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Uh huh.

And, what exactly have they accomplished that the Rangers haven't?
Vancouver is still in the playoffs and the Rangers are not. Thought that was pretty self explanatory.

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04-27-2011, 11:42 AM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
The simple fact you REFUSE to acknowledge, is that the current roster is FULL of talent that made their NHL debut with the Rangers.

And there will continue to be more players.

You want to complain about who was drafted in 2003, to each his own, i'll enjoy the progression of the team NOW and in the future.
Where have a refused to admit that this roster is full of talent that made their NHL debut with the Rangers? I haven't.

What I have said is the team lacks front line top talent and they have not managed to find it. I also said that teams manage to find that top talent without drafting in the top five. I have also said that they should have an advantage because of their money to find top end talent.

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04-27-2011, 11:46 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Uh huh.

And, what exactly have they accomplished that the Rangers haven't?
Clearly, they're a team this is WORLDS closer to achieving their goal than this one. We can debate whether they're the Western Conference version of the Thrashers or not, but that team is built on a foundation put in place well before the lockout. Had they blown it all up as many times as the Rangers have over the past decade, it's hard to imagine they're in a better position than they are today.

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04-27-2011, 11:46 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
You should run down the roster of a team like Vancouver and look at the draft dates of the horses that carry that team year after year. Outside of Burrows, that teams' top players are all pre-lockout NHL'ers.
Sedins #2 and #3 overall by Vancouver 1999
Kesler #23 overall by Vancouver 2003

After that

Samuelsson SJ, 1998
Ehrhoff SJ, 2001
Burrows?
Raymond 2005
Edler 2004
Malhotra NYR, 1998
Torres NYI, 2000
Hansen 2004
Hamhuis NSH, 2001
Bieksa 2001
Tambellini LAK, 2003
Glass FLA, 2003

What's your point? That guys drafted nearly a decade ago finally are on a team that barely got to the second round?

The Rangers are trending up. Vancouver's window is closing.

I'll stick to my Rangers with a young rising team, thanks. And continue to support my argument that the draft picks post-lockout are starting to be the reason for that upward trend.

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04-27-2011, 11:47 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Where have a refused to admit that this roster is full of talent that made their NHL debut with the Rangers? I haven't.

What I have said is the team lacks front line top talent and they have not managed to find it. I also said that teams manage to find that top talent without drafting in the top five. I have also said that they should have an advantage because of their money to find top end talent.
Spending money doesn't guarantee a draft pick booming to elite status.

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04-27-2011, 11:48 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
No you see, that's where you are wrong.

Those lists show you exactly why EVERY team overall is NOT good at drafting.

90+% of EVERY player drafted never sniffs the Pro level. Of those players an even lesser percentile make any kind of impact in the NHL or last in the NHL. An even lesser percentile become stars in the league.

This is what you don't get.

Even the almighty Red Wings fail much more then they succeed.
The problem is that when these other teams "succeed" in the draft, they really succeed. They find two gems like Datsyuk or Zetterberg. Perry and Getzlaf. Richards, Carter, Giroux. Parise etc.

Outside of Lundqvist, when the Rangers find a "gem," it's a Callahan and Dubinsky. And neither of them are on par with the names above.

It's that low percentage of incredible successes that are holding the Rangers back right now.

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04-27-2011, 11:48 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
Clearly, they're a team this is WORLDS closer to achieving their goal than this one. We can debate whether they're the Western Conference version of the Thrashers or not, but that team is built on a foundation put in place well before the lockout. Had they blown it all up as many times as the Rangers have over the past decade, it's hard to imagine they're in a better position than they are today.
They're worlds closer? They nearly got eliminated by the #8 seed.

If they don't win the Cup, again, what did they accomplish?

The window is closing on them. Not on us.

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04-27-2011, 11:48 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
The simple fact you REFUSE to acknowledge, is that the current roster is FULL of talent that made their NHL debut with the Rangers.

And there will continue to be more players.

You want to complain about who was drafted in 2003, to each his own, i'll enjoy the progression of the team NOW and in the future.
Without getting into a debate about the definition of "full of talent", let me just ask you this:

What is your confidence level that The Rangers current roster plus prospects and potential FA's (realistic FA's) will make it to the SC Finals within 3 years? Is it 50%? 80%? 90%?

How about past the 2nd round and into Conference finals?

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04-27-2011, 11:52 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
What's your point? That guys drafted nearly a decade ago finally are on a team that barely got to the second round?
Hey, you're the one that said that pre-lockout choices wouldn't make a difference for the New York Rangers. I'm just giving you an example of perennial Cup contender that's doing it all on pre-lockout choices.

If you don't think that selecting Jessiman over Parise (as one example) back in 2003 is anything less than a devastating choice for a team that even TODAY seeks a suitable 1st line center, I just don't know what to tell you.

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04-27-2011, 11:55 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
They're not going to make it passed the second round within the next three years because YOU don't "see it"? That doesn't make it so.
That would be a reference to "my perspective", and was not given as a "reason" they wouldn't make it. lol Comne'on, get real.

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04-27-2011, 11:55 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
They're worlds closer? They nearly got eliminated by the #8 seed.

If they don't win the Cup, again, what did they accomplish?

The window is closing on them. Not on us.
Did I say that there ISN'T pressure on the Canucks to do the job at this point?

The window hasn't even been open in NY since the 90's.

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04-27-2011, 11:55 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Blueshirt Special View Post
Without getting into a debate about the definition of "full of talent", let me just ask you this:

What is your confidence level that The Rangers current roster plus prospects and potential FA's (realistic FA's) will make it to the SC Finals within 3 years? Is it 50%? 80%? 90%?

How about past the 2nd round and into Conference finals?
I have full confidence the Rangers will have a roster that can represent the Eastern Conference in the Finals within 3 years. Yes.

No body is running away with the Eastern Conference any time soon. Parity is a wonderful thing.

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04-27-2011, 11:55 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by LamoTheKid View Post
Dubi, Cally, Steps, Anisimov all say hello. It's not like we haven't been doing it. And those are guys picked outside of the first round. Now can you clarify "good"? Did you mean "elite"? That's a different story all together. (not attacking you, just asking for clarification)
All 2nd round picks with the exception of Cally who was drafted in the 4th round.

I was trying to disprove the notion that drafting in the later rounds is a "crapshoot." When teams like Nashville, San Jose, Detroit, and Montreal consistently draft well in the later rounds, it's more than just a coincidence. There seems to be a common misconception on these boards that if a team can't get a pick in the top 10, then that forecloses the opportunity to draft a gamebreaker, and that you might as well pick out of a hat trying to find top tier talent in the rest of the draft.

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04-27-2011, 11:56 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
I have full confidence the Rangers will have a roster that can represent the Eastern Conference in the Finals within 3 years. Yes.

No body is running away with the Eastern Conference any time soon. Parity is a wonderful thing.
OK, fair enough.

And you should know: I hope you are right. And if that happens I will be singing the praises of Glen Sather loud and clear.

As for now, consider me from Missouri: "show me"


Last edited by Blueshirt Special: 04-27-2011 at 11:58 AM. Reason: aysk
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04-27-2011, 11:57 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
Hey, you're the one that said that pre-lockout choices wouldn't make a difference for the New York Rangers. I'm just giving you an example of perennial Cup contender that's doing it all on pre-lockout choices.

If you don't think that selecting Jessiman over Parise (as one example) back in 2003 is anything less than a devastating choice for a team that even TODAY seeks a suitable 1st line center, I just don't know what to tell you.
No, I'm saying i'm over it, and have been looking to the future since i started seeing results from the draft a couple of years ago.

The present and future concern me more.

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04-27-2011, 11:59 AM
  #98
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Just want to lend my support to SupersonicMonkey. Keep up the good fight brother. Reason and objectivity are not lost on some of us.

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04-27-2011, 11:59 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
do you think he's a franchise player? i think it comes down to that. do you think he was capable of being a franchise player. I do, Jagr did, so that's the basis of my argument. Pick any name from any team if those names i mentioned ruffle your feathers.

Nash, Thornton, Kovalchuk, Ovechkin, Lundqvist, Parise, etc


pick whichever one you want, and my argument remains the same. Take them off their roster and does the franchises history change?

Was Parise a franchise player before he got into the league? no. Cherepanov, before he died, was playing at the same pace Jaromir Jagr was over there.
Calling someone a great nhl player who never played in the nhl is beyond ridiculous. Lots of number 1 pics were not franchise players. You can believe what you want and maybe it would have been so or maybe he did not have enough to stick in the nhl. Comparing to Crosby? Really?

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04-27-2011, 12:03 PM
  #100
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OK, fair enough.
How can anyone deny the progression that's being made.

This inexperienced team competed with the mighty Capitals without anything like Ovechkin, Semin, Backstrom.

This is why it's a team sport. And games are played on the ice and not on paper.

Any team on any night can win.

The Rangers need more skill, yes, it's been acknowledged by the organization. They have a solid foundation building up here. When the skill arrives, this team will be able to go as far as it wants to.

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