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04-27-2011, 12:04 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by TheRedressor View Post
I 100% agree with you. Cherepanov was putting up simliar numbers to that of Ovechkin and Kovalchuk when they played in the KHL at the same age.

Take an Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Crosby, Malkin, Toews, Kane etc off their teams and the balance of that organization does change completely.
Take Ovie off Wash and Backstrom and Semin are still there. Both are far more offensively gifted than any Ranger. Hell, Johansson may turn out to be more gifted than any Ranger.

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04-27-2011, 12:06 PM
  #102
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OK, fair enough.

And you should know: I hope you are right. And if that happens I will be singing the praises of Glen Sather loud and clear.

As for now, consider me from Missouri: "show me"
It's not that I'm in love with Sather.

I feel confident with the direction and progression being made.

But, "the grass is always greener" The next guy may be WORSE then what ever people feel about Sather.

At least Sather is on the right track now.

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04-27-2011, 12:08 PM
  #103
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Just want to lend my support to SupersonicMonkey. Keep up the good fight brother. Reason and objectivity are not lost on some of us.
Thank you.

I'm just happy with this team's progression. I feel they have a bright future coming up sooner then we think.

A solid core being grown, more skill being developed and on the way, some cap space freeing up in the next couple years.

Soon.

I waited this long, i can wait a couple more years to see a legit contender. And i have confidence we will see one soon.

And by contender, it's a different meaning in this era. There are no teams worlds ahead of anyone else.

The Rangers will have a club that can go as far as anyone else.

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04-27-2011, 12:09 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
People *****ing about the draft REALLY skew things to try to defend their baseless argument.

The Rangers have had picks not pan out, as if it's an anomaly exclusive to the New York Rangers.

Let's try pointing out the picks, undrafted free agents, and trade acquisitions that have worked out.

Lundqvist
Staal
Girardi
Dubinsky
Callahan
Anisimov
Stepan
McDonagh
Sauer
Del Zotto (37 points as a 19 year old)
Boyle

McIlrath is 18. Kreider is 19. Grachev is 20. Del Zotto is 20.

Thomas, Hagelin, Valentenko... these guys can still make an impact.

Some guys who went on and had good careers: Dominic Moore, Fedor Tyutin, Marek Zidlicky.

Dan Blackburn was on his way to becoming a franchise goaltender, he got injured, not the Rangers fault.

Cherepanov died, not the Rangers fault.

Prucha had a couple of very good seasons.

Montoya, Korpikoski, Sanguinetti, Jessiman didn't work out...GET OVER IT.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/index.html

Haw many of these names in the NHL Draft didn't make it?

The Rangers have done very well in the draft the last few years.
Blackvurn was on his way to franchise goaltender. You know this how?

Anyway, original post talks about high end offensive talent, not about players like Dominic Moore.

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04-27-2011, 12:09 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
No, I'm saying i'm over it, and have been looking to the future since i started seeing results from the draft a couple of years ago.

The present and future concern me more.
I can agree with you that today and tomorrow are all we can worry about.

In the context of starting from scratch just 5 seasons ago, I actually think the Rangers are on pace to build a contending team within the window of time it takes to do so. Some good choices this summer will go a long way towards achieving your prediction of 2-3 years for an ECF's appearance.

Complaining about NOT being there today because the process wasn't started 2-3 years earlier is an easy trap to fall into though. I'm sure you understand.

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04-27-2011, 12:12 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Blackvurn was on his way to franchise goaltender. You know this how?

Anyway, original post talks about high end offensive talent, not about players like Dominic Moore.
Because I watched it happening?

Blackburn was outstanding. He was a horse there for a good stretch. He had the ability and mental make up.

Then he got hurt.

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04-27-2011, 12:16 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
I can agree with you that today and tomorrow are all we can worry about.

In the context of starting from scratch just 5 seasons ago, I actually think the Rangers are on pace to build a contending team within the window of time it takes to do so. Some good choices this summer will go a long way towards achieving your prediction of 2-3 years for an ECF's appearance.

Complaining about NOT being there today because the process wasn't started 2-3 years earlier is an easy trap to fall into though. I'm sure you understand.
I understand that pre-lockout smarts could have meant we see a contender now.

I agree.

And believe it all began with the Cup in 94. The mentality changed.

Keep Amonte, Weight, Zubov, Savard... and maybe we talk about the Rangers winning 3 in 9 and not the Devils.

But the future is bright, lots of good things happening here now. And good mojo within the organization and players.

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04-27-2011, 12:18 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
How can anyone deny the progression that's being made.

This inexperienced team competed with the mighty Capitals without anything like Ovechkin, Semin, Backstrom.

This is why it's a team sport. And games are played on the ice and not on paper.

Any team on any night can win.

The Rangers need more skill, yes, it's been acknowledged by the organization. They have a solid foundation building up here. When the skill arrives, this team will be able to go as far as it wants to.
I don't deny there has been progress recently with respect to icing younger, hard-working players. But in reality, we have actually taken a step BACK since making it to the 2nd round a couple of years.

I'm not interested in winning "on paper" whatever that means, or on a video game for that matter! lol

Yes, any team can win any night, but you have to win 4 to advance in the playoffs as "the mighty capitals" so clearly showed us.

When the skill arrives? lol Are you privy to some information we lack? Please enlighten...and that's really where my question is: Even if we add BR this summer (assuming that happens), how much further along does that get us?

Good arguments though Monkey. I like your optimism. I guess I've gotten a bit skeptical (ya think?! lol) I just can't help but voice my disatisfaction with Sather.

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04-27-2011, 12:31 PM
  #109
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For the record, I think that PRE lockout Sather was a horrible GM. Terrible drafting, suspect trading, mind-boggling coaching appointments.

POST lockout, however, he has been one of the league's better GMs. Very solid drafting, excellent trading, shrewd coaching appointments. Free agents are still his Achilles' heel. Still, he gets a very solid B from me post-lockout and on.

Something changed, whether it was pressure from the management to WIN NOW, or maybe he was drunk on Dolan's money after managing cash-strapped Oilers for so long. Whatever it was, he has been a different GM, and one I'd be very reluctant to let go unless someone one Holland was coming back.

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04-27-2011, 12:31 PM
  #110
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Trade up at the draft, we have assets. Too bad this draft is too weak. Still has to be concidered. Replace outgoing vets with vets. No way you can ice youth only.

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04-27-2011, 01:01 PM
  #111
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no question pre lockout sather was terrible in just about every area a gm could be. That being said the drafting has been pretty good since. Im still questioning this past draft i hope nothing but the best for Mcilrath but i dont see it.

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04-27-2011, 01:05 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
Trade up at the draft, we have assets. Too bad this draft is too weak. Still has to be concidered. Replace outgoing vets with vets. No way you can ice youth only.
no way, id trade this years draft pick(s) along with other players to make a splash via the trade market. theres no way id be looking to trade up. i dont particularly care for the players in this draft...both at the top, and at the bottom

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04-27-2011, 01:06 PM
  #113
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I think most people are forgetting something here.

Slats started rebuilding in 2004 with the farm being next to empty other than Lundqvist and Tyutin.

He needed to at least fill up the team with some solid guys, so he began drafting Korpikoski, Dubinsky, Callahan, Byers, Billy Ryan, Sauer, Staal, Anisimov.

Some worked out, some didn't, and some became better than expected. But the original strategy worked: the team did get a core group of guys.

They had hoped that someone would step up and suddenly become an unexpected star, but that did not happen, so by 2007, the team began swinging for the fences.

Unfortunately, the 2007 first round died and their late-round shot (Max Campbell) did not pan out.

The 2008 draft was all high-risk, high-return: Del Zotto, Stepan, Grachev. Similarly 2009 had a few such picks: Kreider, Horak, Bourque. (Werek was not, he was more like the 2004-2006 draftees, but he was an exception.)

In 2010, we again saw high-risk, high-return picks: McIlrath, Thomas, Yogan, Fasth.

It looks to me like Sather understands that this team needs top line players, and he's swinging for the fences trying to get them.

Since 2007 messed up, it delayed the process, and those drafted in the last couple of years (2008-2010) are still not old enough to make a difference.

But if Sather continues the trend, we'll be in very good shape in a couple of years. We will have those star players.

I don't know if it will be Thomas or Kreider, Horak or Grachev, Yogan or Fasth, but I do know that at least a couple of them will turn out to be top-6, maybe even top-3 players.

Patience, boys and girls, patience.

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04-27-2011, 01:09 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Blueshirt Special View Post
I don't see the Rangers getting past the 2nd round in the near future, meaning within 3 years.
I do. There's just too much talent in the system, much of it offensive (Kreider, Thomas, Fasth, Yogan, Horak, Grachev, plus Michael Del Zotto) for this team not to balance out their offense with what is already a good two-way effort.

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04-27-2011, 01:10 PM
  #115
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Trade up at the draft, we have assets. Too bad this draft is too weak. Still has to be concidered. Replace outgoing vets with vets. No way you can ice youth only.
I agree, trade up to get Ryan Murphy. I would trade my whole draft to move up to get that guy. The next Brian Leetch.

I have not given up on MDZ but we can have more than one offensive dman.

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04-27-2011, 01:18 PM
  #116
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I do. There's just too much talent in the system, much of it offensive (Kreider, Thomas, Fasth, Yogan, Horak, Grachev, plus Michael Del Zotto) for this team not to balance out their offense with what is already a good two-way effort.
Man I hope you guys are right! Other than MDZ and a brief glance at Grachev, I know nothing about these prospects.

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04-27-2011, 01:19 PM
  #117
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the BS argument being spouted here is that teams can draft elite players in the first round outside of the top 10 with regularity, and that the rangers have been abysmal drafters...at least thats what ive read...and both are WAY wrong imho.

Teams could do that if they consistently go for high-risk, high-return guys. This means you have to be willing to suffer through multiple Jessimans before you hit one Getzlaf - all that without calling for the GM to be fired.

That's why GMs prefer to go for safer guys in the first round: nobody will demand that you get fired if you drafted a guy like Niklas Sundstrom in the first round.

But if the GM gets some room to breath, he could pull a rabbit out of a hat every other draft by spending all the picks, from the first to the last, on guys like Kreider, Stepan, Horak, etc who are not seen as safe picks.

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04-27-2011, 01:26 PM
  #118
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4 out of 5 drafts from 2004 to 2008 produced an NHLer from our second round pick. That's unreal. I agree that 2004 was a little bit of a cheater year since we had 4 second rounders that year, but still, 50% of our second round draftees from 2004 to 2008 became NHLers - and good ones too: Dubinsky, Sauer, Anisimov, Stepan.

Much of the core of our team are our second round picks.

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04-27-2011, 01:40 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Blueshirt Special View Post
I don't deny there has been progress recently with respect to icing younger, hard-working players. But in reality, we have actually taken a step BACK since making it to the 2nd round a couple of years.

I'm not interested in winning "on paper" whatever that means, or on a video game for that matter! lol

Yes, any team can win any night, but you have to win 4 to advance in the playoffs as "the mighty capitals" so clearly showed us.

When the skill arrives? lol Are you privy to some information we lack? Please enlighten...and that's really where my question is: Even if we add BR this summer (assuming that happens), how much further along does that get us?

Good arguments though Monkey. I like your optimism. I guess I've gotten a bit skeptical (ya think?! lol) I just can't help but voice my disatisfaction with Sather.

1. We have NOT taken a step back. We went from a team that relied on old guys like Jagr, Nylander, Straka, etc. to make the playoffs to being a team that relies on Callahan, Dubinsky, Anisimov, Stepan, Sauer, Girardi, Staal, McDonaugh, etc. The core of the team went from old and about to retire to being young and not even hitting its stride yet.

2. The information he has is our prospect list: Thomas, Kreider, Grachev, Fasth, Yogan, Horak, Bourque, plus Del Zotto, as well as improvements among rookies and sophomores like Stepan, Anisimov, Zuccarello, etc.

This team will be adding offense in the coming years. I am not sure who exactly it will come from, but I can promise you that we'll add at least a couple top-6 forwards who will be able to add significantly to our offensive ability.

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04-27-2011, 01:41 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Because I watched it happening?

Blackburn was outstanding. He was a horse there for a good stretch. He had the ability and mental make up.

Then he got hurt.
If you thought Blackburn was franchise talent, one can only imagine what you thought of DP back then. Lundqvist is what you dreamed of Blackburn, so who cares. Back to the point, there are no goal scorers on this team.
Right or wrong?

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04-27-2011, 01:43 PM
  #121
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Trade up at the draft, we have assets. Too bad this draft is too weak. Still has to be concidered. Replace outgoing vets with vets. No way you can ice youth only.

Actually, I would trade down, even though fans always want "sexier" picks.

I want more stabs at it. If the Rangers can move down to the end of the first round and in return pick up an additional second and an additional third, I would be all over that.

It would allow us to take more stabs at players like Thomas, Bourque, Fasth, etc.

At this stage of our development, I would rather have multiple high-risk, high-return prospects than one "sexy" pick.

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04-27-2011, 02:01 PM
  #122
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I do. There's just too much talent in the system, much of it offensive (Kreider, Thomas, Fasth, Yogan, Horak, Grachev, plus Michael Del Zotto) for this team not to balance out their offense with what is already a good two-way effort.
Kreider, Thomas, and maybe Fasth are the only forwards worth noting in terms of possibly being an offensive weapon. And Fasth is a long shot.

Yogan? Keep dreaming. If anything he's the next Boyle. He's not going to be anything special.

Grachev? Doesn't have the compete level necessary. He would be in Torts' doghouse before he could even get going.

I agree the system has a lot of depth, but they're missing a player or two that would put us over the top. It seems that none of these players (maybe Kreider and Thomas) will be superstars. We have enough role players/average players, we need a few of "that guy" type players, ones that will be elite.

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04-27-2011, 02:06 PM
  #123
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The Rangers have been doing what they need to do--at least since Renney came on board. They've rebuilt their player development. No team these days can survive without bringing youth constantly into the mix. The Rangers are doing that. They might not have the spectacular 1 through 5 picks that other teams have had but they do have a bunch of good young players on the team now and another bunch coming.

There is a cap these days and there are only so many large contracts any team can afford and the Rangers made a bunch of bad decisions--Gomez, Drury, Redden and Kotalik standing out. A team needs to get value for it's large investments. If they don't the onus drops down to younger players to pull more weight than they should. There is a question whether Gaborik is going to fall into the category of bad investment--but at least with he or with Richards you can say they've always been legit 1st line players and much more deserving of the big money than the first group.

I don't have a problem with the Rangers shopping for stars as long as they choose well--their larger contracts are offset by younger players especially those on ELC's. A team needs to balance all of that.

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04-27-2011, 02:16 PM
  #124
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I think most people are forgetting something here.

Slats started rebuilding in 2004 with the farm being next to empty other than Lundqvist and Tyutin.

He needed to at least fill up the team with some solid guys, so he began drafting Korpikoski, Dubinsky, Callahan, Byers, Billy Ryan, Sauer, Staal, Anisimov.

Some worked out, some didn't, and some became better than expected. But the original strategy worked: the team did get a core group of guys.

They had hoped that someone would step up and suddenly become an unexpected star, but that did not happen, so by 2007, the team began swinging for the fences.

Unfortunately, the 2007 first round died and their late-round shot (Max Campbell) did not pan out.

The 2008 draft was all high-risk, high-return: Del Zotto, Stepan, Grachev. Similarly 2009 had a few such picks: Kreider, Horak, Bourque. (Werek was not, he was more like the 2004-2006 draftees, but he was an exception.)

In 2010, we again saw high-risk, high-return picks: McIlrath, Thomas, Yogan, Fasth.

It looks to me like Sather understands that this team needs top line players, and he's swinging for the fences trying to get them.

Since 2007 messed up, it delayed the process, and those drafted in the last couple of years (2008-2010) are still not old enough to make a difference.

But if Sather continues the trend, we'll be in very good shape in a couple of years. We will have those star players.

I don't know if it will be Thomas or Kreider, Horak or Grachev, Yogan or Fasth, but I do know that at least a couple of them will turn out to be top-6, maybe even top-3 players.

Patience, boys and girls, patience.
Nobody is forgetting anything, because thats not really what happened.

Sather, like so many other times during his tenure here, was extremely inconsistent in 2004. He acquired Jagr in January, sold off nearly everything in March, but kept Jagr. Inching towards a rebuild, but halfassing it.

I still believe that Sather expected that first post lockout team to stink, but kept Jagr, a stereotyped malcontent at that point in his career, to keep the seats filled. Maybe Im giving him too much credit for some sort of plan here, but that sure did seem to be part of his rebuild plan.

Except, a funny thing happened. Jagr was reborn and Lundqvist emerged, and any thought of a rebuild went out the window at that point. I think you ascertation that, by 2007, they were hoping a drafted star forward would emerge is completely off. I think he thought we had a team that could compete and putting Gomez and Drury down the middle would solidify a winner. Just a brutal decision compounded by completely losing the Jagr/Nylander chemistry when they let #92 walk.

Theres been no true rebuild under Sather, just mediocrity, middle round drafting, and hoping to strike gold. We've gotten some good players that way, no great ones. And I think hoping a Stepan, Kreider, Grachev, Thomas, etc become a great player is just asking for trouble.

In fact, its funny how Sather's tenure has worked out:

2000-2004 - crap, not even really worth talking about
2005-2007 - a great first line, great goaltending, and no support
2008-present - nice supporting players through the draft and no first line

All Sather needs to do is get a time machine and put 2005-2006 Straka-Nylander-Jagr on this current team, and we'd be lookin good!

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04-27-2011, 02:22 PM
  #125
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Kreider, Thomas, and maybe Fasth are the only forwards worth noting in terms of possibly being an offensive weapon. And Fasth is a long shot.

Yogan? Keep dreaming. If anything he's the next Boyle. He's not going to be anything special.

Grachev? Doesn't have the compete level necessary. He would be in Torts' doghouse before he could even get going.

I agree the system has a lot of depth, but they're missing a player or two that would put us over the top. It seems that none of these players (maybe Kreider and Thomas) will be superstars. We have enough role players/average players, we need a few of "that guy" type players, ones that will be elite.

In general, I agree with you. However, I was just listing anyone with offensive talent.

Some players overachieve, so as long as they have some offensive talent, they are worth writing down.

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