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Old
04-28-2011, 04:03 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by ShotScore View Post
A goal, an assist, and more than 3 missed games due to injury (after missing only 2 the entire regular season)--again. Is it unfair to say I expect more from our leading scorer in the regular season?

Yes, he is, without question, a disappointment.
So you expect our leading scorer to have adamantium bonded to his skeleton, as well as accelerated healing powers?

It's definitely unfair to use injury as a means of devaluing his contribution to the team. Reports are out that he's suffering from a badly sprained MCL. Would you have preferred he hobbled his way through those 3+ games and slowed down his line?

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04-28-2011, 09:38 AM
  #52
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BTW, remember back in the day when I said that come playoff time you'd want Gagne over Zherdev?

Gagne: 2-5-7 +2
Zherdev: 1-1-2 EV

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04-28-2011, 09:43 AM
  #53
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So, that Zherdev has a goal and an assist in five games means he is instrumental in taking us to the next round, but Carter with a goal and an assist in three games is not?

I mean, I like Zherdev and all and I think he rounds out our top nine better than our other options right now so I want to still see him when Carter returns, but let's not get all carried away here.
This team could lose both players, get back in return Cole, Langenbrunner, and a goalie and be a better team. All this hype over flash and dash is overrated when you lack guys who can lay the foundation for the guys who score. Too many players who want to be perennial goal scorers and not enough ditch diggers.

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04-28-2011, 09:45 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
This team could lose both players, get back in return Cole, Langenbrunner, and a goalie and be a better team. All this hype over flash and dash is overrated when you lack guys who can lay the foundation for the guys who score. Too many players who want to be perennial goal scorers and not enough ditch diggers.
Both those guys are on the wrong side of their career... you don't win with mid 30s players anymore.

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04-28-2011, 10:10 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
BTW, remember back in the day when I said that come playoff time you'd want Gagne over Zherdev?

Gagne: 2-5-7 +2
Zherdev: 1-1-2 EV
I doubt many would argue the "want" to have Gagne on this team at this time of year. However, having Gagne at 5+ million during the season with last years 5-6 pairing and goalies, that is another story. I take Meszaros + O'D over Gagne.

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04-28-2011, 10:13 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
I doubt many would argue the "want" to have Gagne on this team at this time of year. However, having Gagne at 5+ million during the season with last years 5-6 pairing and goalies, that is another story. I take Meszaros + O'D over Gagne.
Shelley 1.1
Walker 1.7
Leighton 1.5
Zherdev 2

= 6.3M

This is without getting into the fact that we had some flexibility elsewhere.

Gagne was keepable if Holmgren wasn't burning money on useless players and stupid contracts. So, you're setting up a specious alternative.

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04-28-2011, 10:14 AM
  #57
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I miss Gagne and his clutch playoff performances.

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04-28-2011, 10:22 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
This team could lose both players, get back in return Cole, Langenbrunner, and a goalie and be a better team. All this hype over flash and dash is overrated when you lack guys who can lay the foundation for the guys who score. Too many players who want to be perennial goal scorers and not enough ditch diggers.
The Devils sucked when they traded Langenbrunner. They ended up having one of the best second halves in recent years. (note: obviously Lemaire was a bigger reason for this."

The Stars were doing pretty good when they got Langenbrunner (what 1st in their division?). They ended up missing the playoffs.

Color me unimpressed with Langenbrunner, especially considering my Devils fan friend hated him and called him an over-the-hill cancer.

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04-28-2011, 10:38 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Shelley 1.1
Walker 1.7
Leighton 1.5
Zherdev 2

= 6.3M

This is without getting into the fact that we had some flexibility elsewhere.

Gagne was keepable if Holmgren wasn't burning money on useless players and stupid contracts. So, you're setting up a specious alternative.
Ah, you are going to spend about 1.5-2 total on Shelley's and Walker's replacements anyway. Any tender we were going to sign was going to eat up whatever Leighton got anyway. Let's attribute Zherdev's 2 million directly to Gagne. So that's roughly 3.5 million, really. You are short.

I hate the Gagne trade, but going with the defense we did, a strategy I agree with but I think you disagree with based on previous discussion, it was always going to be very difficult to fit Gagne in.

I still would have tried, mind you, but truthfully it isn't Shelley or Walker or Leighton costing us Gagne, it was Mez and Zherdev.

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04-28-2011, 10:43 AM
  #60
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Ah, you are going to spend about 1.5-2 total on Shelley's and Walker's replacements anyway. Any tender we were going to sign was going to eat up whatever Leighton got anyway. Let's attribute Zherdev's 2 million directly to Gagne. So that's roughly 3.5 million, really. You are short.

I hate the Gagne trade, but going with the defense we did, a strategy I agree with but I think you disagree with based on previous discussion, it was always going to be very difficult to fit Gagne in.

I still would have tried, mind you, but truthfully it isn't Shelley or Walker or Leighton costing us Gagne, it was Mez and Zherdev.
Why am I replacing Shelley? He never should have been signed... and the replacement for Shelley wouldn't be making anywhere near his contract value. Also, we didn't need a replacement for Walker (clearly). Now a lot of Walker's contract was in the minors this year, but some did count at the beginning before he went down.

The big difference? The Versteeg deal doesn't happen most likely.

Versteeg and Zherdev combine to 5M.

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04-28-2011, 10:48 AM
  #61
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I'd take Gagne over Zherdev or Versteeg, right now. He plays the role Steeger was expected to fill, and does it better.

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04-28-2011, 10:53 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Why am I replacing Shelley? He never should have been signed... and the replacement for Shelley wouldn't be making anywhere near his contract value. Also, we didn't need a replacement for Walker (clearly). Now a lot of Walker's contract was in the minors this year, but some did count at the beginning before he went down.

The big difference? The Versteeg deal doesn't happen most likely.

Versteeg and Zherdev combine to 5M.



Homer thought he got an enforcer that could play, Shame on Homer. I would have preferred Scott over Shelley for about half the price. Neither guy can play but It'd be nice to have a heavy that wasn't quite as weathered.

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04-28-2011, 11:03 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Both those guys are on the wrong side of their career... you don't win with mid 30s players anymore.
You win with a mix, both bring to the table the type of players this team lacks. I am very interested to see exactly how this team does against the B's. Zherdev is going to play an important role and at this point he is playing for a contract on another team, maybe Boston?

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04-28-2011, 11:11 AM
  #64
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I love Gagne, but you have to consider the concussion history. It's possible Holmgren didn't think much of gags' chances to continue his career, making his trade value at 5M much lower.

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04-28-2011, 11:13 AM
  #65
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I love Gagne, but you have to consider the concussion history. It's possible Holmgren didn't think much of gags' chances to continue his career, making his trade value at 5M much lower.
As in, we traded him for a 4th round pick + a bad contract?

Still a bad trade.

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04-28-2011, 11:27 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
As in, we traded him for a 4th round pick + a bad contract?

Still a bad trade.




It really was. Why not Gagne for Mez or Gags and the 2nd for Mez and a 4th. The sequence of deals with Tampa always led me to believe that Homer had no clue what he was going to do with Gagne.

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04-28-2011, 11:28 AM
  #67
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Why am I replacing Shelley? He never should have been signed... and the replacement for Shelley wouldn't be making anywhere near his contract value. Also, we didn't need a replacement for Walker (clearly).
You still need a 13th forward. Any 13th forward you were going to get, particularly a heavy if you feel you need one (I understand that people's opinions on this vary greatly), were going to cost roughly 750K. That's 350K. Yeah, every bit of cap space counts, but when you are trying to fit in 5.25 million, you can't go pointing at 350K here and there as what's stopping you from doing it.

And Zherdev & Versteeg doesn't get you all the way to Gagne, not to mention that I can see a clear argument that Versteeg is a better fit for this team moving forward than Gagne.

I still hate the Gagne trade, though.

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04-28-2011, 11:31 AM
  #68
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You still need a 13th forward. Any 13th forward you were going to get, particularly a heavy if you feel you need one (I understand that people's opinions on this vary greatly), were going to cost roughly 750K. That's 350K. Yeah, every bit of cap space counts, but when you are trying to fit in 5.25 million, you can't go pointing at 350K here and there as what's stopping you from doing it.

And Zherdev & Versteeg doesn't get you all the way to Gagne, not to mention that I can see a clear argument that Versteeg is a better fit for this team moving forward than Gagne.

I still hate the Gagne trade, though.
I'm actually quite happy with Versteeg headed into next year, but I would prefer Gagne right now... and I absolutely would prefer not to have Matt Walker on our cap list. You add in that Leighton was overpaid (never should have been signed), etc. and Gagne's money is easy to find... even while upgrading the D.

If we had shipped out Gagne and invested in goal... I would have no complaints with the move.

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04-28-2011, 11:32 AM
  #69
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It really was. Why not Gagne for Mez or Gags and the 2nd for Mez and a 4th. The sequence of deals with Tampa always led me to believe that Homer had no clue what he was going to do with Gagne.
Beause Tampa wanted us to take back a bad contract.....aka walker and walker added some insurance for the 3rd pairing. While he clearly is no o donnell, he when healthy is a solid 3rd pairing guy and if odonnell went down we would still be in good shape.

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04-28-2011, 11:35 AM
  #70
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Beause Tampa wanted us to take back a bad contract.....aka walker and walker added some insurance for the 3rd pairing. While he clearly is no o donnell, he when healthy is a solid 3rd pairing guy and if odonnell went down we would still be in good shape.
It's an ATROCIOUS contract. There is no way Holmgren should have accepted it back.

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04-28-2011, 11:36 AM
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It's an ATROCIOUS contract. There is no way Holmgren should have accepted it back.



He's no "solid" 3rd pairing guy either.

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04-28-2011, 11:37 AM
  #72
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I'm actually quite happy with Versteeg headed into next year, but I would prefer Gagne right now... and I absolutely would prefer not to have Matt Walker on our cap list. You add in that Leighton was overpaid (never should have been signed), etc. and Gagne's money is easy to find... even while upgrading the D.

If we had shipped out Gagne and invested in goal... I would have no complaints with the move.
You can't add in Leighton there. You may feel Leighton is overpaid, and you'd be correct, but any replacement Holmgren was going to sign was going to make basically the same thing. The average contract of the other goalies that the fan-base wanted was 1.5 million.

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04-28-2011, 11:38 AM
  #73
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It's an ATROCIOUS contract. There is no way Holmgren should have accepted it back.
Look its not like he had his pick of the liter. His hand was forced he had to get another dman in the 4mill range and he had to dump gags contract to do so.

Look at what happened to the Blackhawks this offseason. The whole league new they had to dish off cap space. And teams made trade 5 cents on the dollar. Stalberg for Versteeg? Morin and etc for Ladd and Buff? are you kidding me? These things happen its not like the blackhawks wanted to do that but they had to and the only teams willing to play along were the leafs and thrashers.

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04-28-2011, 11:40 AM
  #74
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I'm actually quite happy with Versteeg headed into next year, but I would prefer Gagne right now... and I absolutely would prefer not to have Matt Walker on our cap list. You add in that Leighton was overpaid (never should have been signed), etc. and Gagne's money is easy to find... even while upgrading the D.

If we had shipped out Gagne and invested in goal... I would have no complaints with the move.
The ultimate coup would be if they could resign Gagne for a little more than the Zherdev contract, still have Versteeg, and put a line of Gagne-Richards-Versteeg on the ice.

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04-28-2011, 11:42 AM
  #75
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You can't add in Leighton there. You may feel Leighton is overpaid, and you'd be correct, but any replacement Holmgren was going to sign was going to make basically the same thing. The average contract of the other goalies that the fan-base wanted was 1.5 million.
And that's fine, but you're still going to be able to find the money to keep Gagne. It's going to be tight (obviously), but we were in a position to pick up a guy with a 3M contract this season... we had another guy making 2M... you need to find 250K to pay for Gagne at that point. That's it.

So, now I'm looking at the *ing idiocy that is the Shelley contract and the chunk of change from Walker.

Quote:
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Look its not like he had his pick of the liter. His hand was forced he had to get another dman in the 4mill range and he had to dump gags contract to do so.

Look at what happened to the Blackhawks this offseason. The whole league new they had to dish off cap space. And teams made trade 5 cents on the dollar. Stalberg for Versteeg? Morin and etc for Ladd and Buff? are you kidding me? These things happen its not like the blackhawks wanted to do that but they had to and the only teams willing to play along were the leafs and thrashers.
No, his hand was NOT forced. Holmgren did not have to trade Gagne that's the very point I'm making. You can find the money on this roster.

And, no, we did not have to acquire another 4M range D necessarily to improve the D.

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