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Official Post-Season Discussion. Update: Gauthier to meet with Meehan

View Poll Results: Do you think Wiz will sign with the Habs ?
Yes 25 29.07%
No 61 70.93%
Voters: 86. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
04-29-2011, 10:22 AM
  #176
Coldplay
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I'm deeply concerned we won't be able to re-sign him. He's young, entering his prime, and has an edge to his game. If we lost him, it'd be devastating in my opinion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nittany View Post
If Gomez returns, Wiz will not be back.

If we bury Gomez, as any competitive organization would do, Wiz can return and we can improve elsewhere.
Completely wrong, stop spreading propaganda. Hamrlik's 5.5 million salary comes off the books, and should we choose not to re-up him, that's more than enough to lock Wiz up.

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04-29-2011, 10:23 AM
  #177
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Wiz will cost too much for what he's worth. He's really not very good in his own territory.

I would resign Markov, then take 1/3 of Wiz salary to put it on a bone crushing d-man.

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04-29-2011, 10:23 AM
  #178
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would rather spend that money on more of a 2-way guy...

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Old
04-29-2011, 10:26 AM
  #179
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Wiz was a good stopgap. If Markov signs, with Subban and Weber already here, there's no sense in signing a purely offensive dman. I'm sure the Habs will use the cap space on someone more stable in his own zone.

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Old
04-29-2011, 10:33 AM
  #180
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Our next #1 Centre...

Which centre can the Habs go after this offseason, via trade or free agency that will finally get rid of our problem at centre, once and for all and also find a way to get rid of Gomer? In other words, which elite centre would fit with out team best and who would you want to see on the team?

Personally, I would want Spezza, because although he may be an enigma at times, he is a proven elite player and can rack up the points. He also has size and pyhsicality, something we need the most. Anyways, its my opinion.

This is only if we can't get one in the draft this year.

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Old
04-29-2011, 10:38 AM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal View Post
We're too small and old. With that, we're getting tired too quickly.

So, we need to get bigger AND younger (Espicially on d).

Spacek, Hamrlik, Sopel, Gomez, Pouliot = out.
I think Pouliot is a good project. Same thing with AK. I still have hope for them and I'd keep them if the return isn't worth the risk seeing them become great hockey players with other teams (Ribeiro, Grab, S.Kost, etc)

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04-29-2011, 10:45 AM
  #182
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Yes, Gomez is weak for his salary but he is still a servicable top line centreman. Gionta scored 30 goals centered by Gomez, and Patches was on a PPG pace before his injury, so you can't really say he is holding back his wingers.

You can't just cherry pick Gomez, it's a team sport and overall when the Habs are healthy they have pretty good depth down the middle and have attack threats on all 4 lines.

Gionta-Gomez-Patches
Halpern-Plekanec-Cammalleri
Moen-Eller-Kostitsyn
Pouliot-Desharnais-White

Very effective depth, all 4 lines were rolling fast before the Patches & Halpern injuries blew major holes in our depth chart. It's not an amazing offence, but it has shown it gets the job done and can play Canadiens style hockey effectively (tight D, fast breakout and counter-attack, high spirit).

Who is to guarantee that dropping Jason Spezza in there will be dynamite? The guy has plenty of criticism in Ottawa, a team that has really failed to achieve anything the past 4 years where he is the #1 guy.

Look beyond Gomez's salary, suck up the 2-3 million $ overpayment, and look at the team.

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Old
04-29-2011, 10:55 AM
  #183
OpenIceHit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rgolt View Post
Sooooooooooooooooooooo much more to it.
However i do agree that having Boucher behind our bench would have helped. But its not that easy, habs had no reason/right to fire Martin. Nothing could have been "morally" done to prevent this
Come on guys! Stop with the coaching bashing! What did you expect with the team we had? Boucher has about 4 forwards that can rack up points more than our best forward. The problem here is not JM. He might not be the most "flamboyant" out there but he still ranked the team 6th in the EC with what he had. What can you do with an old and broken Defense and a below than average Offense with almost every forward playing the same style (fast, small and not very tough)?

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Old
04-29-2011, 11:03 AM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Harry View Post
Yes, Gomez is weak for his salary but he is still a servicable top line centreman. Gionta scored 30 goals centered by Gomez, and Patches was on a PPG pace before his injury, so you can't really say he is holding back his wingers.

You can't just cherry pick Gomez, it's a team sport and overall when the Habs are healthy they have pretty good depth down the middle and have attack threats on all 4 lines.

Gionta-Gomez-Patches
Halpern-Plekanec-Cammalleri
Moen-Eller-Kostitsyn
Pouliot-Desharnais-White

Very effective depth, all 4 lines were rolling fast before the Patches & Halpern injuries blew major holes in our depth chart. It's not an amazing offence, but it has shown it gets the job done and can play Canadiens style hockey effectively (tight D, fast breakout and counter-attack, high spirit).

Who is to guarantee that dropping Jason Spezza in there will be dynamite? The guy has plenty of criticism in Ottawa, a team that has really failed to achieve anything the past 4 years where he is the #1 guy.

Look beyond Gomez's salary, suck up the 2-3 million $ overpayment, and look at the team.
Halpern in your top 6 is a problem. Sign a guy Like Laich, Jussi Jokinen, Upshall, someone of that calibre and it will be more balanced. Wiz isn't as bad as people say in his own zone. I would resign him for 4-4.5 million, play him with Markov and it should balance out. Then Sign another two way defender with more footspeed than Hammer, like Montador.

Cammy Pleks Laich
Patches Gomez Gionta
Kostitsyn Eller Moen
Darche Desharnais White
Pyatt Pouliot

Markov Wiz
Montador Subban
Gill/Spacek Gorges
Weber

Spacek somehow gets moved for gill, but if not than keep spacek.

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Old
04-29-2011, 11:03 AM
  #185
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Well of course they all want to stay. There is no chance for them to get bigger bucks so it's just better for they to resign with the Habs.
But for the Habs? well it's better to go younger.meaner.faster.bigger.
it's a problem that the Habs have and it's time to add some big meat to this team.
Subban+Markov+Georges+Hamr( at 3mil one year) + Webber+ 2-3 new faces.
I hear that Poiliot ran away and slamming the doors behind him so he is a gonner.
White in but Pyat out. Halprin at .500 or he's gone.
Darche in at .750. one year.
D.Des in at .750 one year.

TRY to dump Gomez for free.

Try to land Richards.

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Old
04-29-2011, 11:04 AM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
To some, this will feel like rain on a parade, or like a cold wet towel to others. There will be some however, mostly those who have heard the song over the years, who will recognize the melody, and who will be signing the chorus along as it hasn’t changed for many years now.
Yeah, I certainly do recognize this melody. "We need more size, we need more physical players"! You're nothing if not predictable.

You're also, I think, missing what I believe Gauthier saw. I think he has every reason to be optimistic. This year actually marked a seismic shift in how the Habs played, but that shift ended up being plowed under by the Habs' unfortunate lack of finish.

Montreal went from a low-volume, average-finish offense to a high-volume, low-finish offense. It looks like a subtle and meaningless difference, but it is anything but -- because finish fluctuates heavily year-over-year, and tends to go strongly pull towards the average over time. The only way to get consistently good offensive results is to get volume. This is true both at the player and at the team level.

In other words, if they play the same way next year, odds are good they'll end up with 20-30 more goals for. If they'd had the same finish as last year they would have, and last year they were only low-average.

My bold prediction is that we won't be talking about the Habs' popgun offense next year.

And they cut down on chances against at the same time. They were much, much better than last year at both ends of the ice. This is the first Habs team in ages that was actually above-water in 5-on-5 chance generation.

Beat-up and battered through they were, the 2010-2011 Habs were the best Habs club in at least 10, probably more like 15 years. Gauthier doesn't need to do anything radical, and he'd be crazy to.

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Old
04-29-2011, 11:14 AM
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Yeah, I certainly do recognize this melody. "We need more size, we need more physical players"! You're nothing if not predictable.

You're also, I think, missing what I believe Gauthier saw. I think he has every reason to be optimistic. This year actually marked a seismic shift in how the Habs played, but that shift ended up being plowed under by the Habs' unfortunate lack of finish.

Montreal went from a low-volume, average-finish offense to a high-volume, low-finish offense. It looks like a subtle and meaningless difference, but it is anything but -- because finish fluctuates heavily year-over-year, and tends to go strongly pull towards the average over time. The only way to get consistently good offensive results is to get volume. This is true both at the player and at the team level.

In other words, if they play the same way next year, odds are good they'll end up with 20-30 more goals for. If they'd had the same finish as last year they would have, and last year they were only low-average.

My bold prediction is that we won't be talking about the Habs' popgun offense next year.

And they cut down on chances against at the same time. They were much, much better than last year at both ends of the ice. This is the first Habs team in ages that was actually above-water in 5-on-5 chance generation.

Beat-up and battered through they were, the 2010-2011 Habs were the best Habs club in at least 10, probably more like 15 years. Gauthier doesn't need to do anything radical, and he'd be crazy to.
Unless Gauthier manages to get rid of Gomez, and/or pick up a top 6 natural goals' scorer with size, and/or add grit and size on the bottom 6, and/or manages to add toughness, those little players, as skilled and driven as they are, are going to get pushed around and get banged up in a tough playoffs' series. That's what we've had in the past, that's what we had this year, and with not change, that's what we'll have next year.

I do however see, in Gauthier's attempt of picking up Penner at the deadline, that the GM seems to recognize what you don't want to admit: Size does matter!

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Old
04-29-2011, 11:23 AM
  #188
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Gauthier would have to be crazy to try to get rid of Gomez. He knows he's not nearly as bad as advertised, and he knows he's not going to fill that role with someone he'll find on the UFA market, and he knows that without that role filled, the Habs are not a competitive club. Gauthier is not crazy. Unless someone comes to him with a Gomez-for-Stastny type boneheaded trade offer, Gomez will be a Hab until Eller grows into his role (which could be as early as 2012-2013; I don't think Gomez finishes his contract as a Hab).

Otherwise, the team did excellently, this year. The broken need-more-size record isn't any more true than it ever was; what the Habs really needed, what they've ALWAYS needed, was 5-on-5 talent. At the end of 2009, they went out and rebuilt their team around loading up on it. And we're increasingly seeing the benefits, though it took a one-year wait to start seeing results.

2010-2011 was the first edition of the Habs in 15 years that was actually any good at even-strength -- and they were actually very good at it. That's a huge, huge difference. Way more difference than adding random big grinders or even a 25-goal 220-pound guy could ever hope to make.

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04-29-2011, 11:25 AM
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Unless Gauthier manages to get rid of Gomez, and/or pick up a top 6 natural goals' scorer with size, and/or add grit and size on the bottom 6, and/or manages to add toughness, those little players, as skilled and driven as they are, are going to get pushed around and get banged up in a tough playoffs' series. That's what we've had in the past, that's what we had this year, and with not change, that's what we'll have next year.

I do however see, in Gauthier's attempt of picking up Penner at the deadline, that the GM seems to recognize what you don't want to admit: Size does matter!
We went through 4 series in 2 years, and the only size-related issue was the fact that we were not really efficient about clearing the crease from any danger. But as we were good positionnally, blocking shots, blocking the shooting lanes, its not that much of a big deal. But it could in the future, though.

Boston, a team everyone consider as quite "tough" and "physical", won the series with 3 overtime wins, including the Game 7, while we had 3 key-players out since February, with everything that implies in term of icetime and dominos.
Wisniewski had to play more than he was supposed to, he's injured. Halpern has to play more than he could, he's injured.

There is no mystery there. But this has nothing to do with size, its just that we are using players in unappropriate spots because we have to fill that spots.

I think we must understand that we have to fit in a specific profile. You have to play on your strenghts, not trying to fix every little weakness you have, because of the cap, you always have a weakness.

The attempt of picking up Penner could mean so many things that we just cant use that as a point.
He's working and trying to give us a good player, thats all we can say.

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Old
04-29-2011, 11:26 AM
  #190
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I'm not sure if any of these guys have re-signed or not but in the the last UFA list I read I wouldn't mind if the Habs went after guys like Laich, Glencross, Rupp and Konopka.. Adding Konopka and Rupp to the bottom 6 would certainly bring some toughness and 2 guys who can play and fight when need be..

The Habs need a couple of guys who can keep other teams goons in check when they start running our skilled guys.. There's no way a guy like Marchand would pull the crap he does if he didn't have guys like Chara, Lucic, Horton and Thornton behind him..

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04-29-2011, 11:27 AM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
Wiz was a good stopgap. If Markov signs, with Subban and Weber already here, there's no sense in signing a purely offensive dman. I'm sure the Habs will use the cap space on someone more stable in his own zone.
Since we have no choice but to sign Markov, we still have no idea if he'll be able to be healthy yet again. So Wiz could still be a good stopgap as you called him. Wiz needs to stick around as well. That D needs to be our strength and as complete as you can have. The Markov injury excuse is not valid anymore. The day you decide to keep signing him, you ACCEPT the injury factor. But by accepting it, you protect yourself and build a tremendous D core that will be good enough to deal with Markov's absence.

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04-29-2011, 11:28 AM
  #192
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Laich should be a target for us if Washington let him go. He's exactly what we need.

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04-29-2011, 11:29 AM
  #193
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Penner would've fit the Habs beautifully, not because he's big, but because he's an excellent even-strength player.

I think Habsterix would actually have hated Penner. He's not his type of player. He doesn't go for the big hit, he doesn't pump his legs, he doesn't drive to the net on every play. In fact I think he'd have instantly become the Habs' scapegoat, possibly even ahead of Gomez.

He is, however, a strong driver of 5-on-5 play, a guy who can play against anyone effectively and would've been a great complement to Plekanec and Cammalleri. And I'm actually pretty disappointed the Habs didn't trade Tinordi-and-a-first for him. I understand why they didn't, but I still think they should have.

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04-29-2011, 11:39 AM
  #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rutabaga View Post
We went through 4 series in 2 years, and the only size-related issue was the fact that we were not really efficient about clearing the crease from any danger. But as we were good positionnally, blocking shots, blocking the shooting lanes, its not that much of a big deal. But it could in the future, though.

Boston, a team everyone consider as quite "tough" and "physical", won the series with 3 overtime wins, including the Game 7, while we had 3 key-players out since February, with everything that implies in term of icetime and dominos.
Wisniewski had to play more than he was supposed to, he's injured. Halpern has to play more than he could, he's injured.

There is no mystery there. But this has nothing to do with size, its just that we are using players in unappropriate spots because we have to fill that spots.

I think we must understand that we have to fit in a specific profile. You have to play on your strenghts, not trying to fix every little weakness you have, because of the cap, you always have a weakness.

The attempt of picking up Penner could mean so many things that we just cant use that as a point.
He's working and trying to give us a good player, thats all we can say.
Agree and don't. The fact that Giroux and Brière are able to do their thing is because they are surrounded by guys who are also doing their part. The bigger ones, the ones that are actually able to win their battles, the ones that are big and efficient enough so that they tire the opposition and let the talented players than do their stuff. Yes, Lucic didn't do a great job....it doesn't mean he won't bring it....and it clearly doesn't mean that he was bad in the regular season.

My point about being bigger is that there's sometimes a limit to what smaller players with okay strength can do against bigger ones. There is so much battles they can win. And frankly aside from Cammy who has that pure natural scoring talent, all of our other smaller guys needs to work their butt off to get something going. So if the idea of a team is to be efficient by working your butt off every single game and not being able to dipsy doodle your way into a 6-2 game, you need to accompany those smaller guys with bigger ones.

I just find it odd that most people agreed that MaxPac was probably our biggest loss and that his addition alone might help Gomez next year....why? 'Cause he's talented but also 'cause he brings that mix of size and talent that Moen wasn't able to bring.

And again, people should stop with that false debate. It's not bringing size to bring size. Nobody talks about Boogaard. At one point, nobody is even talking about solely 6'4'' players. Yet, you could have brought in a guy like Michael Rupp who would not have hurt this team in the regular season and in the playoffs. I would welcome with open arms a guy like Gaustad. Might not be top 6 players, but would bring the mix we don't have as we speak.

Some smaller players are able to do it on their own, you have that minding that St-Louis would play with 2 5'4'' guys and it wouldn't mind....but you are talking about exceptional players. Our team needs to be build in a way that when the pure talent do not work on a certain night, that a 4th line build of high energy and gritty players could change the way that game is going. Or when the great passing games and highly cerebral players don't work, well you are able to park a big ass in front of the net, and have 1 big guy winning his battles along the board, pass it to the D, shoots and score 'cause the goalie don't see anything.

Mind you, I will NEVER pass on a smaller guy because he is small. The draft is coming and if in the end all my favorites are gone and Rocco Grimaldi is available, I'm going with him. Nothing suggest we will still be small in 2 or 3 years when Grimaldi will be ready. But as far as next year, and knowing full well that you'll only see 3, 4, or 5 changes, I would add 1 or 2 guys up front that would bring that type of game. Strangely, we believe in size in the net....we seem to believe in size on D...how about believing in it up front. We love our MaxPac...and it's not only because he has a lovely nose....

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04-29-2011, 11:48 AM
  #195
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dear geoff molson
I will buy a 24 every day for the entire season next year, of any Molson brand product you have, as long as Gomez is buried to the minors and off the cap.
The will be my support to the pay gomez to not be on the team fund

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04-29-2011, 11:49 AM
  #196
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Let go/trade/minors
- Gomez
- Hamrlik
- Wiz
- Sopel
- Mara
- AK
- Pouilot
- Picard
- Spacek (if we can trade him)

Re-sign
- Gorges
- Markov
- Gill
- Auld
- Darche
- Emelin (in his case... sign)

Free agency targets
- B. Richards
- Laich
- Bieksa (or Brewer, Erhoff,...)
- Rupp

Ideal world
Cammy-Richards-MaxPac
Laich-Pleks-Gionta
DD-Eller-Darche
Moen-Rupp-Pyatt/White

Markov-Bieksa
Gill-Subban
Emelin-Gorges
Weber

Price
Auld


Last edited by MTL-rules: 04-29-2011 at 11:59 AM.
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04-29-2011, 01:36 PM
  #197
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Ideal world
Cammy-Richards-MaxPac
Laich-Pleks-Gionta
DD-Eller-Darche
Moen-Rupp-Pyatt/White

Markov-Bieksa
Gill-Subban
Emelin-Gorges
Weber

Price
Auld
Looks great for an ideal world kinda scenario. I'd prefer Pitkanen over Bieksa but none the less, this team looks great.

Pipe dream though, Spacek is here to stay and Gomez... he is too.

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04-29-2011, 01:47 PM
  #198
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What's everyone's obsession with Upshall?! He's far from a top 6 PF! He's a tougher Moen who's not as reliable defensively.

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04-29-2011, 01:49 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by Habsolument90 View Post
What's everyone's obsession with Upshall?! He's far from a top 6 PF! He's a tougher Moen who's not as reliable defensively.
Big guys on other teams are always fantastic, and size trumps all other considerations.

If you think the obsession with Upshall is weird, keep in mind some people here kept insisting Evgeni Arthyukin and JF Jacques would be significant improvements to the Habs roster. At least Upshall can play hockey effectively on a third line.

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04-29-2011, 01:50 PM
  #200
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Gauthier would have to be crazy to try to get rid of Gomez. He knows he's not nearly as bad as advertised, and he knows he's not going to fill that role with someone he'll find on the UFA market, and he knows that without that role filled, the Habs are not a competitive club. Gauthier is not crazy. Unless someone comes to him with a Gomez-for-Stastny type boneheaded trade offer, Gomez will be a Hab until Eller grows into his role (which could be as early as 2012-2013; I don't think Gomez finishes his contract as a Hab).
Not as bad as advertized? Hell, he's worse than advertized! In a cap world, he's in the same category as Vinny Lecavalier (who produces more offensively) and Brian Campbell!

What do you make of Brad Richards? Not saying that he'd sign in Montreal (forgot my crystal ball), but I happen to think that he'd be a huge, huge improvement over Gomez.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Otherwise, the team did excellently, this year. The broken need-more-size record isn't any more true than it ever was; what the Habs really needed, what they've ALWAYS needed, was 5-on-5 talent. At the end of 2009, they went out and rebuilt their team around loading up on it. And we're increasingly seeing the benefits, though it took a one-year wait to start seeing results.
I happen to think that two factors are common since struggling at 5 on 5:
  1. Defensive minded coaches
  2. Lack of size to create room and protect the smaller skilled players
But I'm expecting a reply saying that it's not right. Fine with me, but I truly believe that it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Penner would've fit the Habs beautifully, not because he's big, but because he's an excellent even-strength player.

I think Habsterix would actually have hated Penner. He's not his type of player. He doesn't go for the big hit, he doesn't pump his legs, he doesn't drive to the net on every play. In fact I think he'd have instantly become the Habs' scapegoat, possibly even ahead of Gomez.

He is, however, a strong driver of 5-on-5 play, a guy who can play against anyone effectively and would've been a great complement to Plekanec and Cammalleri. And I'm actually pretty disappointed the Habs didn't trade Tinordi-and-a-first for him. I understand why they didn't, but I still think they should have.
Size does matter. You seem to forget that I live out west and I have been following Penner fairly closely, as he's spent his entire career in the western conference. I KNOW what to expect from him and I've stated his faults in more than one occasion on this very forum. Wrong assumption Mathman, the math doesn't add up.

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