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Old
04-29-2011, 10:02 AM
  #751
azrok22
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Originally Posted by alphaqup View Post
None of those guys have had a 35 goal season, let alone multiple seasons. Hell, I don't think any of them have even reached 30.

This is a list of players that put up 35+ goals this past season:

Corey Perry
Steven Stamkos
Jarome Iginla
Ryan Kesler
Daniel Sedin
Patrick Marleau
Jeff Carter

Do you see any difference between these guys and guys like Stewart and Neal? Those guys are on a whole nother level. Neal played with Richards in Dallas and was traded to Pitts to play with Crosby. He does better as a complimentary player with a playmaking 1st line center. We don't have one, so why would we trade for him when we know we can't the most out of him? His production would drop and we'd still be on the hunt for a #1 C to compliment him much like the situation we're in now with Gaborik.

Edit: That's not to say Neal or Stewart won't reach 35 goals because most likely they will. Playing with Crosby, Neal has a good shot at it. We don't have a Crosby or any C anywhere near his level. And just for kicks, Neal's production on the Pens without a 1st line C has been (drum roll):

Regular season: 20 games, 1g 5a 6p
Playoffs: 7 games, 1g 1a 2p

As you can see, Neal struggles without someone passing him the puck.

We need first liners. A complimentary guy is not going to cut it, we have plenty of them. I'm all for trading for a gamebreaker but at what price? It's better to just keep our assets and spend only money on Richards, IMO.
Especially when the only semi-realistic #1C trade option is Paul Statsny with a $6.6m cap hit. To get Statsny, I have to believe that you're looking at giving up at least one of Staal/Dubinsky/Callahan ++. Even if Richards cap hit ends up higher at say $7.5m, it's a much better value move to sign him and keep the core pieces.

EDIT: And before his age and this vile risk of him declining is brought up, so long as Richards doesn't have a NMC at the tail end of the deal and it's a front-loaded deal, I'm confident that he would be infinitely more movable than Drury or even Gomez. The Gomez signing may not have worked out in and of itself, but given 20/20 hindsight I would still sign him 100% of the time:


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04-29-2011, 10:07 AM
  #752
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Originally Posted by azrok22 View Post
Especially when the only semi-realistic #1C trade option is Paul Statsny with a $6.6m cap hit. To get Statsny, I have to believe that you're looking at giving up at least one of Staal/Dubinsky/Callahan ++. Even if Richards cap hit ends up higher at say $7.5m, it's a much better value move to sign him and keep the core pieces.
Yep. The bottom line is that we'd have to gut our team to trade for one of these good young players which IMO, should be our second maybe third option. If we don't land Richards, we'll look at our trade options. But at this point, it's silly to make a trade when there's still a chance we could get a player that fits our needs for just cash.

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04-29-2011, 10:22 AM
  #753
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Someone told Larry Brooks about the 3 year contract extension for Torts. MSG didn't reveal the terms for his first contract. No one knew when the first contract was expiring this spring or he was going to enter an option year. Even that part isn't clear. As soon as the Rangers were eliminated it was leaked to Brooks to cut off any speculation about his future as head coach. Torts got a 3 year extension so Richards knows who he is dealing with. Torts didn't leak it to Brooks. He called the media a pain in the ass on Kay's show and Torts said he was not comfortable discussing his contractual situation with the media. The Rangers leaked it and then wouldn't discuss it on the record. The extension was done months ago and nothing was reported.

Dallas doesn't have an owner and a coach. Who knows about Nieuwendyk's future when a new owner does eventually buy that team. There is so much uncertainty with that franchise.

May 1 is on Sunday. Two more months.

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04-29-2011, 10:30 AM
  #754
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Originally Posted by alphaqup View Post
But at this point, it's silly to make a trade when there's still a chance we could get a player that fits our needs for just cash.
The potential amount of cash is why you consider the trade route though. What's more valueable to this team? The stockpile of prospects or the cap space saved by acquiring a player with a more modest cap hit?

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04-29-2011, 10:32 AM
  #755
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The Garden is negotiating a 2 year extension for Donnie Walsh and will bring back Mike D'Antoni to fulfill the last year of his contract but won't discuss anything past next season. They want D'Anotoni to hire a defensive minded assistant coach. Torts got a 3 year extension when he missed the playoffs last season and the Rangers were in a scramble to make the playoffs this season. Richards wants stability. A coach he reportedly loves. 3 year extension. An original 6 franchise. Spends to the upper limit and purges money into the AHL. Dolan isn't selling the team. Sather has been there forever and isn't going anywhere. The last two sentences could be looked at as negatives. LOL. A picture of stability.

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04-29-2011, 10:38 AM
  #756
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
The potential amount of cash is why you consider the trade route though. What's more valueable to this team? The stockpile of prospects or the cap space saved by acquiring a player with a more modest cap hit?
But you're not getting a player equivalent to Richards for some prospects. You're losing at least one core player in the deal. And in the case of Stastny, you'd be losing a core player to save maybe million bucks.

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04-29-2011, 10:44 AM
  #757
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But you're not getting a player equivalent to Richards for some prospects. You're losing at least one core player in the deal. And in the case of Stastny, you'd be losing a core player to save maybe million bucks.
I think Stastny is a bad example with a cap hit almost equivalent to a top tier UFA.

If you acquire a player with a $4M hit instead of $7M (let's say) for Richards, how can you further improve the team with that $3M savings? Does addressing multiple needs leave you with a better team overall?

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04-29-2011, 10:47 AM
  #758
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
I think Stastny is a bad example with a cap hit almost equivalent to a top tier UFA.

If you acquire a player with a $4M hit instead of $7M (let's say) for Richards, how can you further improve the team with that $3M savings? Does addressing multiple needs leave you with a better team overall?
But where are you finding a $4m first liner? And if you did find a $4m first liner, why in god's name would the team with that $4m first liner trade him? They wouldn't, unless you're paying a king's ransom.

EDIT: So now you have your $3m in savings, which is good, because you're going to have to spend it replacing at least one (probably multiple considering the team is likely adding salary on top of trading the $4m first liner) core pieces on this roster: Staal/Dubinsky/Callahan/etc.

That's not a step forward.

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04-29-2011, 10:50 AM
  #759
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
The potential amount of cash is why you consider the trade route though. What's more valueable to this team? The stockpile of prospects or the cap space saved by acquiring a player with a more modest cap hit?
Well, it also depends on what players a team wants in return. Not to mention identifying a legitimate #1 center that a team is willing to trade in the first place.

If teams are asking for guys like Staal and Callahan and Dubinsky instead of "expendable" prospects, then a deal starts being more expensive than ponying up cash for a FA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
I think Stastny is a bad example with a cap hit almost equivalent to a top tier UFA.

If you acquire a player with a $4M hit instead of $7M (let's say) for Richards, how can you further improve the team with that $3M savings? Does addressing multiple needs leave you with a better team overall?
Do you know of any available $4 mill first line centers? I mean, on paper what you're saying is absolutely true, but a situation like that doesn't seem to exist IMO, and I'll be honest and say I'm not thrilled at the idea of the Rangers giving up quality assets for a guy who MIGHT be a #1 center if he "just gets a change of scenory" or something like that.

e: Wait, has anyone mentioned in here the rumor that Kirk Muller is going to be the new Stars head coach and they're just waiting for ownership to get straightened out before hiring him?


Last edited by Levitate: 04-29-2011 at 11:10 AM.
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Old
04-29-2011, 11:18 AM
  #760
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
I think Stastny is a bad example with a cap hit almost equivalent to a top tier UFA.

If you acquire a player with a $4M hit instead of $7M (let's say) for Richards, how can you further improve the team with that $3M savings? Does addressing multiple needs leave you with a better team overall?
agreed...except that stastny is only 25, so you'd be paying him $6.6 mil from 25-31 instead of richards from 31-37. he'd be a much more long term solution and you wouldn't have the worry of his play dropping off late in the contract...

of course it depends on what you'd have to give up in the trade too

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04-29-2011, 11:22 AM
  #761
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
I think Stastny is a bad example with a cap hit almost equivalent to a top tier UFA.

If you acquire a player with a $4M hit instead of $7M (let's say) for Richards, how can you further improve the team with that $3M savings? Does addressing multiple needs leave you with a better team overall?
IMO, if we're making a trade it needs to be for a top tier guy. Frankly, I don't know of any around 4M unless you consider guys like Tavares, Duchene, Hall, etc. Those guys are obviously untouchable.

But let's take an example. Suppose we want one of these 1st liners for 4M. The team asks for Dubinsky + MDZ + 1st for him and we pull the trigger. Now we need to find a player for 3M to replace Dubinsky's production. Is that worth it? There's also other factors in play. What position is said 1st liner? Will he be as good as Richards is currently? What about the player replacing Dubinsky? Not to mention we lose MDZ and a 1st.

I'm sort of operating under the assumption that we need a top tier guy. A guy that doesn't need to be complimented. A guy that makes those around him better because that's the type of player we need, IMO.

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04-29-2011, 11:33 AM
  #762
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Originally Posted by alphaqup View Post
IMO, if we're making a trade it needs to be for a top tier guy. Frankly, I don't know of any around 4M unless you consider guys like Tavares, Duchene, Hall, etc. Those guys are obviously untouchable.

But let's take an example. Suppose we want one of these 1st liners for 4M. The team asks for Dubinsky + MDZ + 1st for him and we pull the trigger. Now we need to find a player for 3M to replace Dubinsky's production. Is that worth it? There's also other factors in play. What position is said 1st liner? Will he be as good as Richards is currently? What about the player replacing Dubinsky? Not to mention we lose MDZ and a 1st.

I'm sort of operating under the assumption that we need a top tier guy. A guy that doesn't need to be complimented. A guy that makes those around him better because that's the type of player we need, IMO.
I don't think Dubinsky is as difficult to replace as people imagine. It looks harder on team that is offensively inept, but if you trade him for a guy that puts up 50% more points than he does (70-80), you really only need someone who will be a 20-20 guy, considering the player you trade for will (hopefully) also make his linemates better, which equals more production.

That's looking at the situation generously, but if you make a move for a guy like Stastny, you expect him to be a 70-80 point #1c and increase the production of Gaborik/Whoever.

Edit: IMO it's the little things Dubi does that are what will be missed, depending on his replacement.

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04-29-2011, 11:44 AM
  #763
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Originally Posted by Ailurophile View Post
I don't think Dubinsky is as difficult to replace as people imagine. It looks harder on team that is offensively inept, but if you trade him for a guy that puts up 50% more points than he does (70-80), you really only need someone who will be a 20-20 guy, considering the player you trade for will (hopefully) also make his linemates better, which equals more production.

That's looking at the situation generously, but if you make a move for a guy like Stastny, you expect him to be a 70-80 point #1c and increase the production of Gaborik/Whoever.

Edit: IMO it's the little things Dubi does that are what will be missed, depending on his replacement.
You're only comparing the production this year vs. the hypothetical production with Dubinsky traded for an upgraded offensive player (and replaced with any money saved).

The comparison you should be making is forward looking: a hypothetical team with Dubinsky and Richards vs. a hypothetical team with Dubinsky traded for an upgraded offensive player (and replaced with any money saved).

When compared that way, Dubinsky + Richards > Hypothetical Upgraded Dubinsky + Hypothetical Dubinsky Replacement, imo.

Richards > Hypothetical Upgraded Dubinsky
Dubinsky > Hypothetical Dubinsky Replacement

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04-29-2011, 12:02 PM
  #764
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You're only comparing the production this year vs. the hypothetical production with Dubinsky traded for an upgraded offensive player (and replaced with any money saved).

The comparison you should be making is forward looking: a hypothetical team with Dubinsky and Richards vs. a hypothetical team with Dubinsky traded for an upgraded offensive player (and replaced with any money saved).

When compared that way, Dubinsky + Richards > Hypothetical Upgraded Dubinsky + Hypothetical Dubinsky Replacement, imo.

Richards > Hypothetical Upgraded Dubinsky
Dubinsky > Hypothetical Dubinsky Replacement
Richards is less than or equal to a hypothetical upgraded #1c you get back in the Dubi trade. Otherwise why would you make the trade in the first place, when you can just sign Richards? If you are going to trade for a #1c instead of signing Richards that center needs to be:

a.) legit #1c
b.) equal or better yearly production than Richards
c.) younger

where younger is the key to making the trade because you are not locking up 7 million in a guy who is over 30.

Would Dubinsky be better than a hypothetical replacement? I don't know, maybe a rookie comes in and puts up 50 points (unlikely), or maybe they find a FA who clicks with the new center and Gabs and puts up 50+? It's hard to say since we're talking hypotheticals here.

My point was that if you make the trade to bring in a young, #1c versus signing Richards, replacing Dubinsky's production wouldn't be that difficult and would be worth getting the younger center, versus the risk of an older Richards who could be another bad signing.

I'm just playing Devil's advocate here anyway, I'm for signing Richards rather than making the trade, but if they did make the trade, it could easily end up working out better than Richards, just as much as Richards could end up being the best FA signing in a long time. That's the beauties of ' what ifs' and 'could bes'.

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04-29-2011, 12:15 PM
  #765
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I was relying on the numbers you were providing in your post (trading Dubinsky for a 70-80 point player and replacing Dubinsky's spot with 40 point player rather than Richards + Dubinsky).

EDIT: Also, younger could be better, or it might not be. Young players can regress too.

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04-29-2011, 12:39 PM
  #766
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But where are you finding a $4m first liner? And if you did find a $4m first liner, why in god's name would the team with that $4m first liner trade him? They wouldn't, unless you're paying a king's ransom.
I would look at a player like Weiss, Vermette or Stoll. Weiss, on a backloaded contract, for a cash poor team. I think they'd listen to offers. Maybe I'm wrong, who knows. Just thinking out loud.

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04-29-2011, 12:44 PM
  #767
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None of those guys are legit 1st line players that the Rangers really really need...

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04-29-2011, 12:53 PM
  #768
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None of those guys are legit 1st line players that the Rangers really really need...
I didn't say they were. I'm asking whether or not that Rangers are better served by finding a less expensive upgrade at center and spending somewhere elsewhere down the lineup as well.

The Rangers may not sign Brad Richards on July 1st. I mean, can we not throw out some other options to, at very least, pass the time over the next 8 weeks without a, "Pft......that's not as good signing Richards" and just walking away? Or, are of the belief that Sather either signs Richards or you can pretty much throw next season out the window?

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04-29-2011, 01:08 PM
  #769
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How many of you would be willing to trade like a 3rd rounder to get the opportunity to talk to Richards before July 1st?

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04-29-2011, 01:18 PM
  #770
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I didn't say they were. I'm asking whether or not that Rangers are better served by finding a less expensive upgrade at center and spending somewhere elsewhere down the lineup as well.
Hurray, more streaky 2nd liners, the cup will be ours


I'm of the opinion that if the Rangers want to win a cup before their best players start passing their prime, then they need to acquire some legit first line players one way or another. Not 2nd line players. They have some good second line players. They have prospects who project as 2nd line players. They need legitimate, no questions asked, first line players.

The single biggest problem with this team is the lack of star talent and you can't make up for that by buying a bunch of 2nd tier talent and hoping that will cover things up.

The other biggest hole the Rangers have is needing a legit PP QB and a good one of those isn't going to come cheap either if you can't develop one.

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04-29-2011, 01:23 PM
  #771
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How many of you would be willing to trade like a 3rd rounder to get the opportunity to talk to Richards before July 1st?
To tell him?

We're interested? He knows.

We feel he would be a great addition? He knows.

Our coach is a great guy? He knows our coach.

We have barely enough cap space to sign him? He knows.

We're hoping him, with Gabby, our young core and our world class goalie will allow for the NYR to win a cup(s) in the coming years? He knows.

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04-29-2011, 01:54 PM
  #772
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The good news for Stars fans is that the sale appears to be moving ahead. Two sources yesterday confirmed that Vancouver busineisssman Tom Gaglardi is in the exclusive 30-day negotiation window, and that the window will end in late May. One source said that while it is dictated as a 30-day window, that nobody will be upset if the paperwork takes 32 or 35 days. In addition, the source said Gaglardi's offer is ``significantly'' better than what others have offered and is the kind of offer that could get the deal done.

That said, this still is very complicated. Gaglardi's people have to fashion a legal document that will satisfy the lawyers for the lenders and the NHL. Then, the plan is to put that offer before other bidders to see if they want to go over it. If they do, Gaglardi would have the opportunity to then go over their bids.

The lenders, the Stars and the NHL would like to get any kind of controversy out of the way before they try to send the team through an organized bankruptcy hearing. If they can present a clean deal, the court case could take only three days (the same way the Cubs did it with the Ricketts family back in 2009). That would allow the Stars to avoid the drama that came during the sale of the Texas Rangers in bankruptcy court.

But while this is what the plan is, even the people making the plan caution that there are several potential problems that could creep up.
http://starsblog.dallasnews.com/arch...ad-slowly.html

Nieuwendyk is waiting for the ownership situation to be settled before making any moves. He is no rush to hire a head coach. He has no idea what the budget will be for next season so he can't really discuss contract with his own free agents.

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04-29-2011, 01:55 PM
  #773
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To tell him?

We're interested? He knows.

We feel he would be a great addition? He knows.

Our coach is a great guy? He knows our coach.

We have barely enough cap space to sign him? He knows.

We're hoping him, with Gabby, our young core and our world class goalie will allow for the NYR to win a cup(s) in the coming years? He knows.
Maybe, but you never know what a team like LA might do if he hits UFA. Maybe you force his hand. I don't think the Rangers do it, but there's more to early negotiating rights than pitching the situation. If he knows the pre-UFA phase is his only chance to sign in NY, and he's leaning that way anyway, the Rangers avoid the uncertainty of a monster bid from elsewhere.

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04-29-2011, 02:03 PM
  #774
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http://starsblog.dallasnews.com/arch...ad-slowly.html

Nieuwendyk is waiting for the ownership situation to be settled before making any moves. He is no rush to hire a head coach. He has no idea what the budget will be for next season so he can't really discuss contract with his own free agents.
Again, rumors are that Kirk Muller is heading to Dallas as soon as the sale is cleaned up. Dunno if that helps someone like Richards make a decision

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04-29-2011, 02:04 PM
  #775
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Originally Posted by Riche16 View Post
To tell him?

We're interested? He knows.

We feel he would be a great addition? He knows.

Our coach is a great guy? He knows our coach.

We have barely enough cap space to sign him? He knows.

We're hoping him, with Gabby, our young core and our world class goalie will allow for the NYR to win a cup(s) in the coming years? He knows.
youre trading for the exclusive negotiating window. i wouldnt do a 3rd for it...but i would do a 4th or 5th for it. make it a conditional 5th...5th if he doesnt sign with us, 3rd if he does?

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