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Flyers acquire Meszaros from Tampa Bay for Second Round Pick in 2012

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04-29-2011, 12:51 PM
  #401
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Couldn't disagree more. The moves (both the Meszaros trade as a 5th defensemen and the Lincecum theoretical trade as a 5th ace) are inherently different.

Meszaros helps you every game.
The point isn't how much the two players play, it's that they're excessive. In addition, it would be extremely difficult to argue there couldn't be a better allocation of resources.

Well, difficult unless your name is Chris Shafer.

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04-29-2011, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by mja View Post
More like criticism of the strategy. Holmgren invested this much cash in the D for a reason. You think it unwise, as it "may be better spent elsewhere." I personally don't have a problem having that much money tied up at D and obviously Homer doesn't either, as I think investing in D is probably more important than investing in any other position, including goaltender. Give me 6 great defenseman and I'll make run after run after run.

If anything, I think we could stand to invest a little less up front and throw the savings into goalie.

Anyhow, I'd have a lot more respect for you guys if you simply manned up and took your crow medium rare - the move has undoubtedly been successful, though I'm sure some of you will want to argue that.
What crow do I have to eat? I stated all along that I expect Meszaros to be a good player haha. He ended up being better than good.

To tack onto your thought that it's more of a criticism of the strategy, I agree to some extent. But I still maintain it was more about the means, or the method, if you will. If Homer makes the same exact deal 3 hours later, rather than 30 minutes before FA starts, I just feel better about it. And again this has literally NOTHING to do with Meszaros the player. Homer making the move 30 minutes before FA makes me weary because I then fear he is rushing to a decision and not doing his due dilligence in weighing every option. If he did do it 3 hours later, I'd be more comfortable in thinking that he looked around, talked to some people, and decided Meszaros is the best player at the best value he can get.

Is that so wrong of me? Again, I never had ANY criticism of Meszaros the player. I expected him to be good, and he was even better than I expected. Any and all inhibitions I had were due to HOW it all happened. And that criticism (like most any criticism involing a method of doing something) will never be right or wrong.

It's like if I buy a car that I am absolutely desperate to have at sticker price. You may come to me and be like "why did you do that? Yea it's a great car but you could have haggled and saved another 2k." The fact of the matter is I still have a great car (Meszaros). That doesn't mean your criticism is invalid though. The result (car) doesn't speak to your criticsm (the purchase).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Couldn't disagree more. The moves (both the Meszaros trade as a 5th defensemen and the Lincecum theoretical trade as a 5th ace) are inherently different.

Meszaros helps you every game.
Well, obviously it's not a flawless comparison. Very rarely are inter-sports analogies the case. There are similarities in the idea however.

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04-29-2011, 12:59 PM
  #403
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Originally Posted by Rick Blaine View Post
The point isn't how much the two players play, it's that they're excessive. In addition, it would be extremely difficult to argue there couldn't be a better allocation of resources.

Well, difficult unless your name is Chris Shafer.
Um...

Meszaros not only effects how much our aging vets, Timonen and Pronger, play, but if you remember what a long 3:00 minutes a game was when we had Krajicek and Bartulis out on the ice together during the playoffs, then you understand why you can't take 3:00 minutes for granted in hockey.

But truth be told, being able to run 5 players for 20:00 minutes a game on the blueline is a SPECTACULAR benefit both for your aging vets and your team's energy at the end of the season.

Once again, a 5th defenseman is not the same as a 5th pitcher in a rotation.

You're the only one I see who is absolutely obsessed with this ridiculous notion that somehow the two positions are the same.

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04-29-2011, 01:26 PM
  #404
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Um...

Meszaros not only effects how much our aging vets, Timonen and Pronger, play, but if you remember what a long 3:00 minutes a game was when we had Krajicek and Bartulis out on the ice together during the playoffs, then you understand why you can't take 3:00 minutes for granted in hockey.

But truth be told, being able to run 5 players for 20:00 minutes a game on the blueline is a SPECTACULAR benefit both for your aging vets and your team's energy at the end of the season.

Once again, a 5th defenseman is not the same as a 5th pitcher in a rotation.

You're the only one I see who is absolutely obsessed with this ridiculous notion that somehow the two positions are the same.
It's probably because the statement it came from is about an hour old. And I wouldn't consider one post "obsessed."

We all know your position on goalies, and how you feel money's better spent elsewhere. We're also reminded of your half-assed logic fervently used to justify it nearly every time you post.

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04-29-2011, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Rick Blaine View Post
It's probably because the statement it came from is about an hour old. And I wouldn't consider one post "obsessed."

We all know your position on goalies, and how you feel money's better spent elsewhere. We're also reminded of your half-assed logic fervently used to justify it nearly every time you post.
When my logic is proven wrong, you let me know. I have a PM box.

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04-29-2011, 01:31 PM
  #406
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When my logic is proven wrong, you let me know. I have a PM box.
Gold.

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04-29-2011, 01:45 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Couldn't disagree more. The moves (both the Meszaros trade as a 5th defensemen and the Lincecum theoretical trade as a 5th ace) are inherently different.

Meszaros helps you every game.
But a starting pitcher has a larger impact every 5th day than Meszaros has in any one game.

I'll let you deal with the math of that on your own.

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04-29-2011, 01:49 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by mja View Post
More like criticism of the strategy. Holmgren invested this much cash in the D for a reason. You think it unwise, as it "may be better spent elsewhere." I personally don't have a problem having that much money tied up at D and obviously Homer doesn't either, as I think investing in D is probably more important than investing in any other position, including goaltender. Give me 6 great defenseman and I'll make run after run after run.

If anything, I think we could stand to invest a little less up front and throw the savings into goalie.

Anyhow, I'd have a lot more respect for you guys if you simply manned up and took your crow medium rare - the move has undoubtedly been successful, though I'm sure some of you will want to argue that.
It has?

Last year we had a Stanley Cup contending team without the goalie to get it done.

This year we have a Stanley Cup contending team... and we'll be seeing about the goaltending once again.

Meszaros put up solid numbers playing a relatively easy shift this year... as expected. The move has not proven to be a success for its purposes yet, however. And saying it has after the goaltending debacle of the first round is a bit much.

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04-29-2011, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
But a starting pitcher has a larger impact every 5th day than Meszaros has in any one game.

I'll let you deal with the math of that on your own.
How does a 5th starter cut down the workload of the other 4 starters?

You're going to have a 5th guy in the rotation regardless.

I'll let you do that math.

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04-29-2011, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
How does a 5th starter cut down the workload of the other 4 starters?

You're going to have a 5th guy in the rotation regardless.

I'll let you do that math.
...the bottom line is wins, dude. You don't need to cut down on starters workload... they create their own work load based on how they perform. A quality 5th starter does have SIGNIFICANT impact on the BP's workload over the course of a season.

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04-29-2011, 01:57 PM
  #411
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
It has?

Last year we had a Stanley Cup contending team without the goalie to get it done.

This year we have a Stanley Cup contending team... and we'll be seeing about the goaltending once again.

Meszaros put up solid numbers playing a relatively easy shift this year... as expected. The move has not proven to be a success for its purposes yet, however. And saying it has after the goaltending debacle of the first round is a bit much.
I told you some of you would argue it, and the two that did were exactly who I was referring to.

We now have a top pair quality two-way defenseman with a mean streak who is, what, 26 years old?, and all we gave up was a 2nd round pick.

I'd call that a success.

And as you like to point out, the heavy investment in defense did not preclude Homer from going a different route at goalie.

You guys have SUCH a hard time admitting that you could ever possibly be wrong about anything.

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04-29-2011, 02:01 PM
  #412
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Originally Posted by mja View Post
I told you some of you would argue it, and the two that did were exactly who I was referring to.

We now have a top pair quality two-way defenseman with a mean streak who is, what, 26 years old?, and all we gave up was a 2nd round pick.

I'd call that a success.

And as you like to point out, the heavy investment in defense did not preclude Homer from going a different route at goalie.
He is not a top pair quality two-way defenseman. The gross injustice that has been done to Timonen over the past couple of weeks has been absolutely fascinating to watch.

As to the goalie...

Quote:
You guys have SUCH a hard time admitting that you could ever possibly be wrong about anything.
Brian *ing Boucher is the goalie that is going to try and win us a Stanley Cup. I like Boucher, but he is not a starting goalie in this league. That's a MASSIVE *ing problem in my book.

So, starting to pat Holmgren on the back when we're only in the 2nd rd. is a bit much.

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04-29-2011, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
It has?

Last year we had a Stanley Cup contending team without the goalie to get it done.

This year we have a Stanley Cup contending team... and we'll be seeing about the goaltending once again.

Meszaros put up solid numbers playing a relatively easy shift this year... as expected. The move has not proven to be a success for its purposes yet, however. And saying it has after the goaltending debacle of the first round is a bit much.
The move for Mez was made to decrease the minutes the top 4 played, with the hope that they were not completely gassed in the Stanley Cup Final, should the Flyers make it back. It's tough to judge the Mez trade specifically on that criteria, though, because so much goes into a team making the Final.

The Mez trade can also be deemed a success amongst a total off-season assessment of a failure. If the Flyers don't win the Cup, last off-season was a failure, in my opinion (specifically for the way Holmgren handled the goalie situation)... but I am firmly in the camp that the Meszaros trade is a success. He has limited the time that Carle is on the PK, limited the time Coburn is on the PP and, as noted, has contibuted in decreasing the minutes played all around by the big 4.

On its own, the trade has been successful in the short term.

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04-29-2011, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by mja View Post
I told you some of you would argue it, and the two that did were exactly who I was referring to.

We now have a top pair quality two-way defenseman with a mean streak who is, what, 26 years old?, and all we gave up was a 2nd round pick.

I'd call that a success.

And as you like to point out, the heavy investment in defense did not preclude Homer from going a different route at goalie.

You guys have SUCH a hard time admitting that you could ever possibly be wrong about anything.
I assume you are referring to me?

When did I ever say that I didn't want the defenseman you described above. Again, I never had any issues with Meszaros the player! I expected him to be good, and he exceeded those expectations.

Where am I wrong here?

Decided to locate a couple of my first posts about Meszaros:

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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
I agree. When I first saw "Meszaros to PHI for 2nd rounder" I was pleased with the move. However, I was unaware of his contract status. At 4 million, I'm a bit skeptical. Hopefully, he can really take some strides on a D- corps like we have.
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I said mediocre.

The idea was ok but it was poor execution. Everyone wanted to sure up the 3rd pairing, but Homer rushed into it. He moved too quickly, and gave up an asset, for an underachieving, overpaid defenseman.

I think Meszaros will be solid for us, but I can't help but think we could have solidified our 3rd pairing for far cheaper while keeping the 2nd round pick.
My biggest criticism of Meszaros was that he was "underacheiving". Otherwise I said I was pleased with the move and that I also wanted to sure up the 3rd pairing.

In summary, everything that had to do with actual hockey, I liked. Everything that had to do with contracts, money, draft picks, and timing, caused some hesitancy.

What is so wrong with that?! Why must everything be so black and white? Why can't I be in the middle and say I like the player but I don't like how it went down.

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04-29-2011, 02:09 PM
  #415
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I'm sorry, but to say the goaltender has less of an impact than any other one player is just ridiculous, especially after that last series in which the ability of a goalie to steal games or blow games were pretty readily evident.

You can argue that the goalie is less important than the overall team in front of him, but if this team has a Vezina-caliber goaltender we can afford to lose a Meszaros or even a Carter.

Any one skater < a top-tier goaltender.

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04-29-2011, 02:10 PM
  #416
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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
The move for Mez was made to decrease the minutes the top 4 played, with the hope that they were not completely gassed in the Stanley Cup Final, should the Flyers make it back. It's tough to judge the Mez trade specifically on that criteria, though, because so much goes into a team making the Final.

The Mez trade can also be deemed a success amongst a total off-season assessment of a failure. If the Flyers don't win the Cup, last off-season was a failure, in my opinion (specifically for the way Holmgren handled the goalie situation)... but I am firmly in the camp that the Meszaros trade is a success. He has limited the time that Carle is on the PK, limited the time Coburn is on the PP and, as noted, has contibuted in decreasing the minutes played all around by the big 4.

On its own, the trade has been successful in the short term.
Yeah, lets talk about the PP since we acquired Meszaros... a fan of it?

The Meszaros trade is part of a larger picture, and sequence of decisions that Holmgren made last season. It cannot be judged independent of other moves, to do so is unfair. As a stand alone move, sure acquiring Meszaros for a 2nd rd. pick was a great move. We were not, however, a team struggling for talent on defense we simply needed a 3rd pairing that could hold its own... at the same time, the 3rd pairing guys were not that big of an issue until we got to Chicago, where, as expected, all the holes in Leighton got exposed in a flurry of blood and sputum.

As you note, the failure to (at the very least) make another serious run at the SC this year would represent a step back for this team, not a step forward. Moreover, it was abundantly clear last February, let alone last June, where the team's biggest need actually was. Now it's entirely fair to say that there was no HR on the goalie market last year (and I agree), but the end result was to put this team in a position where they couldn't even plan on making a move when someone could become available.

So, here we are... does anyone really want to bet serious cash on Brian Boucher backstopping a team to the Stanley Cup? This is Holmgren's creation, and it does relate back to the moves last summer.

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04-29-2011, 02:13 PM
  #417
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What crow do I have to eat? I stated all along that I expect Meszaros to be a good player haha. He ended up being better than good.

To tack onto your thought that it's more of a criticism of the strategy, I agree to some extent. But I still maintain it was more about the means, or the method, if you will. If Homer makes the same exact deal 3 hours later, rather than 30 minutes before FA starts, I just feel better about it. And again this has literally NOTHING to do with Meszaros the player. Homer making the move 30 minutes before FA makes me weary because I then fear he is rushing to a decision and not doing his due dilligence in weighing every option. If he did do it 3 hours later, I'd be more comfortable in thinking that he looked around, talked to some people, and decided Meszaros is the best player at the best value he can get.

Is that so wrong of me? Again, I never had ANY criticism of Meszaros the player. I expected him to be good, and he was even better than I expected. Any and all inhibitions I had were due to HOW it all happened. And that criticism (like most any criticism involing a method of doing something) will never be right or wrong.

It's like if I buy a car that I am absolutely desperate to have at sticker price. You may come to me and be like "why did you do that? Yea it's a great car but you could have haggled and saved another 2k." The fact of the matter is I still have a great car (Meszaros). That doesn't mean your criticism is invalid though. The result (car) doesn't speak to your criticsm (the purchase).
See, here's where we part ways, and it comes down to me realizing that I have no ****ing clue what goes on in Holmgren's office, and you making a plethora of assumptions.

For all we know, the Flyers scouts came back and said, "Homer, go get Mez, he's being abused in Tampa, stay away from the free agents," For all we know Homer already had decided that Mez would be a better pick up, than say, Paul Martin, not because of jitters, but because he's a hockey guy and he's in a position to make that call and he's making that call. For all we know, there was another suitor in line for Mez, and he's gone to that other suitor if Homer doesn't make the move when he does.

We don't know ANYTHING that goes on at that level, so why bother trying to feel anything about it? Judge the move on the merits of the move. A 2nd for a young guy with #2 type two-way upside is simply a steal, no?

That's the crow I want you to eat, not anything you said or think about Mez as a player.

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04-29-2011, 02:18 PM
  #418
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See, here's where we part ways, and it comes down to me realizing that I have no ****ing clue what goes on in Holmgren's office, and you making a plethora of assumptions.

For all we know, the Flyers scouts came back and said, "Homer, go get Mez, he's being abused in Tampa, stay away from the free agents," For all we know Homer already had decided that Mez would be a better pick up, than say, Paul Martin, not because of jitters, but because he's a hockey guy and he's in a position to make that call and he's making that call. For all we know, there was another suitor in line for Mez, and he's gone to that other suitor if Homer doesn't make the move when he does.

We don't know ANYTHING that goes on at that level, so why bother trying to feel anything about it? Judge the move on the merits of the move. A 2nd for a young guy with #2 type two-way upside is simply a steal, no?

That's the crow I want you to eat, not anything you said or think about Mez as a player.
To suggest that people are incapable of evaluating decisions with incomplete data sets is a relatively remarkable claim. Moreover, you don't really need all the variables that you are suggesting as necessary, because it isn't like the scouts and whatever other advisors Holmgren may or may not have listened to are incapable of making the same mistakes.

I mean, a scout suggested we draft Klotz in the 3rd round...

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04-29-2011, 02:20 PM
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Yeah, lets talk about the PP since we acquired Meszaros... a fan of it?

The Meszaros trade is part of a larger picture, and sequence of decisions that Holmgren made last season. It cannot be judged independent of other moves, to do so is unfair. As a stand alone move, sure acquiring Meszaros for a 2nd rd. pick was a great move. We were not, however, a team struggling for talent on defense we simply needed a 3rd pairing that could hold its own... at the same time, the 3rd pairing guys were not that big of an issue until we got to Chicago, where, as expected, all the holes in Leighton got exposed in a flurry of blood and sputum.

As you note, the failure to (at the very least) make another serious run at the SC this year would represent a step back for this team, not a step forward. Moreover, it was abundantly clear last February, let alone last June, where the team's biggest need actually was. Now it's entirely fair to say that there was no HR on the goalie market last year (and I agree), but the end result was to put this team in a position where they couldn't even plan on making a move when someone could become available.

So, here we are... does anyone really want to bet serious cash on Brian Boucher backstopping at team to the Stanley Cup? This is Holmgren's creation, and it does relate back to the moves last summer.
Heh. I would argue that to not judge the trade independently is unfair. The Meszaros acquisition didn't impact who could have been acquired between the pipes via free agency. If the Flyers wanted to pursue the trade route, having Mez as a back-up plan for the top 4 would have allowed the Flyers to include Carle or Coburn (or even Mez, himself) in a package for a goalie.

Holmgren didn't have to re-sign Leighton and he didn't have to sign Shelley. He made moves that have had no impact on the success of the team and one, Leighton, that almost sent the boys golfing in April, 2011.

As for the powerplay, I'm not going to lay blame on Mez for its failures. Only Gagne is missing up front from last year and I'll take Mez over Coburn any day. The powerplay remains the single greatest anomaly of this season.

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04-29-2011, 02:22 PM
  #420
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Heh. I would argue that to not judge the trade independently is unfair. The Meszaros acquisition didn't impact who could have been acquired between the pipes via free agency. If the Flyers wanted to pursue the trade route, having Mez as a back-up plan for the top 4 would have allowed the Flyers to include Carle or Coburn (or even Mez, himself) in a package for a goalie.

Holmgren didn't have to re-sign Leighton and he didn't have to sign Shelley. He made moves that have had no impact on the success of the team and one, Leighton, that almost sent the boys golfing in April, 2011.

As for the powerplay, I'm not going to lay blame on Mez for its failures. Only Gagne is missing up front from last year and I'll take Mez over Coburn any day. The powerplay remains the single greatest anomaly of this season.
Add 4M in salary (for multiple years) and not subtracting salary has DIRECT impact on the other moves you are going to make. It isn't like this team was flush in cap space.

It really cannot be looked at independent of other decisions... just like signing Jeff Carter for 11 years cannot be looked at just in terms of Jeff Carter.

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04-29-2011, 02:24 PM
  #421
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He is not a top pair quality two-way defenseman. The gross injustice that has been done to Timonen over the past couple of weeks has been absolutely fascinating to watch.

As to the goalie...

Brian *ing Boucher is the goalie that is going to try and win us a Stanley Cup. I like Boucher, but he is not a starting goalie in this league. That's a MASSIVE *ing problem in my book.

So, starting to pat Holmgren on the back when we're only in the 2nd rd. is a bit much.
1) What the hell I have said against Timonen? I love Kimmo Timonen. I think he's a legit # 1 and one of the top fifteen defenseman in the entire league. I don't think that of Mez. I think he could be a legit 2 and he's certainly a 3.

2) Why do we keep talking about goalie again? Wasn't I the person advocating sending our 1st and/or Bob for a Vokoun or Bryzgalov prior to the Versteeg trade? As you've so eloquently argued in other discussions, like, yesterday for example, the heavy investment on D did not prohibit Homer from keeping Gagne, if he wanted to. Logically it wouldn't have prevented Homer from going out and upgrading at goalie, if he wanted to. That being the case, judge the move on the merits of the move. Mez for a 2nd is a steal.

3) Who's patting Holmgren in the back for being in the 2nd round? I can't acknowledge the merits of the Meszaros trade because our goaltending sucks? Huh?

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04-29-2011, 02:30 PM
  #422
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
I'm sorry, but to say the goaltender has less of an impact than any other one player is just ridiculous, especially after that last series in which the ability of a goalie to steal games or blow games were pretty readily evident.

You can argue that the goalie is less important than the overall team in front of him, but if this team has a Vezina-caliber goaltender we can afford to lose a Meszaros or even a Carter.

Any one skater < a top-tier goaltender.
Ask Henrik Lundqvist how much of a difference he, as what I consider the best goalie in the world, made against the Capitals.

You can put up any numbers you want as a goalie, but at some point you need an offense and a defense in front of you. If that offense and defense is going to be successful, you need depth. That means every extra talented skater you have makes you that much more of a dangerous team in the playoffs. A goalie is largely dependent on that skating core, if not almost completely.

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04-29-2011, 02:32 PM
  #423
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Add 4M in salary (for multiple years) and not subtracting salary has DIRECT impact on the other moves you are going to make. It isn't like this team was flush in cap space.

It really cannot be looked at independent of other decisions... just like signing Jeff Carter for 11 years cannot be looked at just in terms of Jeff Carter.
It might have impact after this season, but it did not impact the 2010/11 season. Given who was available via free agency in net, the Mez contract didn't impact who the Flyers could have signed.

I called it a short term success because I can't judge past this season yet. How his contract impacts what the Flyers do past this season will have to be addressed this off-season... and, unfortunately, it will probably be based on how far the Flyers go in the playoffs.

Everyone knows goaltending is a serious problem, but I fear that they'll stand pat again if they make it to at least the Conference Final.

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04-29-2011, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by mja View Post
1) What the hell I have said against Timonen? I love Kimmo Timonen. I think he's a legit # 1 and one of the top fifteen defenseman in the entire league. I don't think that of Mez. I think he could be a legit 2 and he's certainly a 3.
Meszaros as the best D on this team this year was an utter joke on the part of the writers... and cemented the fact that those a**clowns aren't worth reading. Meszaros is a solid player, but he can and has been exposed by better offensive players this year. He really benefited from being on our third pairing, and the numbers bare that out. He was +24 in the first 37 games this year when he was consistently with OD on a more regular basis, and a +6 in the final 44 games he played.

He's a fine guy to have on a 2nd pairing, no question there... and can ride shotgun with a legit no. 1... but we have a few guys like that.

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2) Why do we keep talking about goalie again? Wasn't I the person advocating sending our 1st and/or Bob for a Vokoun or Bryzgalov prior to the Versteeg trade? As you've so eloquently argued in other discussions, like, yesterday for example, the heavy investment on D did not prohibit Homer from keeping Gagne, if he wanted to. Logically it wouldn't have prevented Homer from going out and upgrading at goalie, if he wanted to. That being the case, judge the move on the merits of the move. Mez for a 2nd is a steal.
And, as said, I would have been fine with the Gagne trade if it meant a better goaltending situation... that didn't happen, and Mez for a 2nd was all part of the same thought process that was going on at the time. Before we get into making it personal about Meszaros himself, you'll find the SAME talking points when we had Hamhuis' rights.

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3) Who's patting Holmgren in the back for being in the 2nd round? I can't acknowledge the merits of the Meszaros trade because our goaltending sucks? Huh?
The criticisms of the move for Meszaros were ALWAYS grounded in cost distribution across the roster... so to treat critiques of the deal as if they weren't hedged against other positions is ignoring the primary beef that folks have had with the philosophy Holmgren adopted on D.

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04-29-2011, 02:39 PM
  #425
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Ask Henrik Lundqvist how much of a difference he, as what I consider the best goalie in the world, made against the Capitals.

You can put up any numbers you want as a goalie, but at some point you need an offense and a defense in front of you. If that offense and defense is going to be successful, you need depth. That means every extra talented skater you have makes you that much more of a dangerous team in the playoffs. A goalie is largely dependent on that skating core, if not almost completely.
...The Rangers are not a good hockey club, yet they made the playoffs. In the playoffs they played 5 competitive games, including losing two OT games where players in front of him made TERRIBLE mistakes that led to the GWGs.

Lundqvist had a *ing massive impact both on the Rangers season, and making them competitive with a very talented team. Just because the team lost didn't mean the goalie didn't matter.

Just a brutally awful thesis on your part.

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