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Flyers acquire Meszaros from Tampa Bay for Second Round Pick in 2012

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Old
04-29-2011, 03:46 PM
  #426
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Ask Henrik Lundqvist how much of a difference he, as what I consider the best goalie in the world, made against the Capitals.

You can put up any numbers you want as a goalie, but at some point you need an offense and a defense in front of you. If that offense and defense is going to be successful, you need depth. That means every extra talented skater you have makes you that much more of a dangerous team in the playoffs. A goalie is largely dependent on that skating core, if not almost completely.
Without Lundqvist, that team doesn't even make the playoffs.

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04-29-2011, 03:54 PM
  #427
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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
Without Lundqvist, that team doesn't even make the playoffs.
It's not Shafer's opinion, he presents them as facts. He's obviously right.

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04-29-2011, 03:55 PM
  #428
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Originally Posted by mja View Post
See, here's where we part ways, and it comes down to me realizing that I have no ****ing clue what goes on in Holmgren's office, and you making a plethora of assumptions.

For all we know, the Flyers scouts came back and said, "Homer, go get Mez, he's being abused in Tampa, stay away from the free agents," For all we know Homer already had decided that Mez would be a better pick up, than say, Paul Martin, not because of jitters, but because he's a hockey guy and he's in a position to make that call and he's making that call. For all we know, there was another suitor in line for Mez, and he's gone to that other suitor if Homer doesn't make the move when he does.

We don't know ANYTHING that goes on at that level, so why bother trying to feel anything about it? Judge the move on the merits of the move. A 2nd for a young guy with #2 type two-way upside is simply a steal, no?

That's the crow I want you to eat, not anything you said or think about Mez as a player.
I understand that I ALSO have zero clue about what Homer did or didn't do. All I am doing is talking about how I FEEL about the timing of his move. Prior to 12 noon the transaction makes me uneasy because it is a fact that he didn't even play free agency. After 12 noon, I don't know if he would actually talk to some people, but he has that option and that makes ME FEEL more comfortable that he arrived at the best conclusion.

We are talking about opinions here. Opinions on matters that can never be proven or disproven. Any and all criticism I had was about the transaction not the player. We will never be able to go back in time to go about it in another manner to see if my concerns had any validity. I said nothing negative about the player, which is something that could be proven or disproven. If I had said I hated the move because I think Meszaros is garbage, you could then laugh in my face and say "look how good he was". I said Meszaros was good and he was good. Why am I taking flack?

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04-29-2011, 03:59 PM
  #429
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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
Heh. I would argue that to not judge the trade independently is unfair. The Meszaros acquisition didn't impact who could have been acquired between the pipes via free agency. If the Flyers wanted to pursue the trade route, having Mez as a back-up plan for the top 4 would have allowed the Flyers to include Carle or Coburn (or even Mez, himself) in a package for a goalie.

Holmgren didn't have to re-sign Leighton and he didn't have to sign Shelley. He made moves that have had no impact on the success of the team and one, Leighton, that almost sent the boys golfing in April, 2011.

As for the powerplay, I'm not going to lay blame on Mez for its failures. Only Gagne is missing up front from last year and I'll take Mez over Coburn any day. The powerplay remains the single greatest anomaly of this season.
I have to agree with this. Homer had many other options to make cap space if he actually wanted to acquire a real goalie for this team. Homer "went" after some goalies, but he obviously had a price range and no one bit.

We have to look at this deal independently, instead of how some think this team could have made better decisions based on how they think things should be.

Assuming we didn't trade for Mez, Homer may have overpaid some other FA defenseman or signed Guerin to a few mill for no reason other than we had extra cap space.

The Mez deal was a good one.

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04-29-2011, 04:08 PM
  #430
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
I understand that I ALSO have zero clue about what Homer did or didn't do. All I am doing is talking about how I FEEL about the timing of his move. Prior to 12 noon the transaction makes me uneasy because it is a fact that he didn't even play free agency. After 12 noon, I don't know if he would actually talk to some people, but he has that option and that makes ME FEEL more comfortable that he arrived at the best conclusion.

We are talking about opinions here. Opinions on matters that can never be proven or disproven. Any and all criticism I had was about the transaction not the player. We will never be able to go back in time to go about it in another manner to see if my concerns had any validity. I said nothing negative about the player, which is something that could be proven or disproven. If I had said I hated the move because I think Meszaros is garbage, you could then laugh in my face and say "look how good he was". I said Meszaros was good and he was good. Why am I taking flack?
I thought Homer did OK going Meszaros before free agency. He tried Hamhuis, he got O'D......he likely didn't see anyone else he was getting, so get it done. If you wait until Hamhuis signs in Vancouver, Michalek/Martin sign in Pittsburgh, etc - then we are looking at Meszaros as our only option, and then maybe it costs a first?

Either way, we got a top 4 defenceman for 4 years for a 2nd round pick which is going to be at or near 60, so not bad value. I understand your point however, and the perfect option would be to get that D-man in free agency and keep that 2nd. As much as I like Mez, I would have been very much in favor of a top 4 quality D-man at a similar cap hit for no assets.

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04-29-2011, 04:34 PM
  #431
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
I thought Homer did OK going Meszaros before free agency. He tried Hamhuis, he got O'D......he likely didn't see anyone else he was getting, so get it done. If you wait until Hamhuis signs in Vancouver, Michalek/Martin sign in Pittsburgh, etc - then we are looking at Meszaros as our only option, and then maybe it costs a first?

Either way, we got a top 4 defenceman for 4 years for a 2nd round pick which is going to be at or near 60, so not bad value. I understand your point however, and the perfect option would be to get that D-man in free agency and keep that 2nd. As much as I like Mez, I would have been very much in favor of a top 4 quality D-man at a similar cap hit for no assets.
They were not getting a 1st for him... frankly, I'd be shocked if they could have gotten better than our 2nd. That was a straight cap dump from TB's perspective, and everyone knew it.

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04-29-2011, 04:55 PM
  #432
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jeez this is still debated? how did baseball come into play here? I liked the move when it happened and still like it now.

Anyway, whether we got this guy or not, homer was spending the 4 mil on a defenseman....You can keep arguing that tho if you want :-p

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04-30-2011, 06:50 AM
  #433
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The trolling in this thread is laughable

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04-30-2011, 07:06 AM
  #434
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The criticisms of the move for Meszaros were ALWAYS grounded in cost distribution across the roster... so to treat critiques of the deal as if they weren't hedged against other positions is ignoring the primary beef that folks have had with the philosophy Holmgren adopted on D.
Hold on a second. You argued that upgrading the D did not tie Homer's hands salary-wise, and that he could have kept Gagne, correct? Logically, this means that he could still have traded Gagne and used the Gagne's money not at forward but at goaltender, correct?

Also, the average salary of the FA options to Leighton ended up being pretty much Leighton's exact salary, so in the end, Meszaros is completely irrelevant anyway, correct?

Given all that, the primary beef is non-existent, because as you yourself have helped to demonstrate, it wasn't an issue. Holmgren could have traded for Mez and signed one of the other FA goalies, correct?

Hell, he could have traded for Mez, signed one of the other FA goalies, AND kept Gagne. We essentially wouldn't have Versteeg & Zherdev, but that was completely doable, correct?

Given that, the Meszaros trade should be judged purely on the merits of the deal. A 2nd for Mez is a steal. Period.


Last edited by mja: 04-30-2011 at 07:15 AM.
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04-30-2011, 07:14 AM
  #435
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
I understand that I ALSO have zero clue about what Homer did or didn't do. All I am doing is talking about how I FEEL about the timing of his move. Prior to 12 noon the transaction makes me uneasy because it is a fact that he didn't even play free agency. After 12 noon, I don't know if he would actually talk to some people, but he has that option and that makes ME FEEL more comfortable that he arrived at the best conclusion.

We are talking about opinions here. Opinions on matters that can never be proven or disproven. Any and all criticism I had was about the transaction not the player. We will never be able to go back in time to go about it in another manner to see if my concerns had any validity. I said nothing negative about the player, which is something that could be proven or disproven. If I had said I hated the move because I think Meszaros is garbage, you could then laugh in my face and say "look how good he was". I said Meszaros was good and he was good. Why am I taking flack?
Your opinion is that the move was questionable. Your still on the fence about it being questionable, even with the benefit of hindsight.

It's my opinion that getting Mez for a measly 2nd round pick is anything but questionable. All of that other stuff - the timing of it, how it made you feel, etc. - is irrelevant now. We can see that Mez is worth far more than a 2nd round pick.

That's all there is to it. It turned out to be a very, very good move.

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04-30-2011, 11:43 AM
  #436
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Originally Posted by mja View Post
Hold on a second. You argued that upgrading the D did not tie Homer's hands salary-wise, and that he could have kept Gagne, correct? Logically, this means that he could still have traded Gagne and used the Gagne's money not at forward but at goaltender, correct?

Also, the average salary of the FA options to Leighton ended up being pretty much Leighton's exact salary, so in the end, Meszaros is completely irrelevant anyway, correct?

Given all that, the primary beef is non-existent, because as you yourself have helped to demonstrate, it wasn't an issue. Holmgren could have traded for Mez and signed one of the other FA goalies, correct?

Hell, he could have traded for Mez, signed one of the other FA goalies, AND kept Gagne. We essentially wouldn't have Versteeg & Zherdev, but that was completely doable, correct?

Given that, the Meszaros trade should be judged purely on the merits of the deal. A 2nd for Mez is a steal. Period.
Other than the fact that I would have preferred to keep Gagne and cheapen up our defensive spending. NEVER agreed with putting as much cash into the D as we did, largely because our forward roster is setup such that we don't really have a "third" line that can be truly effective without producing.

Cost distribution is not simply defense v. goalie, which is the dichotomy you are presenting, it's forward v. defense v. goalie. You go back and you're going to see pretty much all the critics advocating moving one of Coburn/Carle... and, yes, you can go back to the Hamhuis threads to find that.

The Meszaros deal is NOT a stand alone deal, and the Hamhuis attempt proves that point. It was part of a larger philosophical deal that had ramification across the rest of the roster and how this team is currently constructed. That philosophy led to us re-signing Leighton... and it also led to us burning yet another 1st round pick in a trade. And if you go look at the Versteeg thread, I don't mind the value of that deal... but giving up pick after pick after pick is catching up with this organization.

No move takes place in a vacuum, and to think life works that way is silly. Period.

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