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04-30-2011, 11:21 PM
  #176
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The big advantadge of this approach is that after that three-year window closes, they then build around the Eller-Pacioretty-Subban-Gorges-Price core along with any rising young'uns that emerge in that time (Leblanc?) and keep Plekanec as an "elder statesman" (around the ripe old age of 32), grab some of their young picks for the cheap depth, fill out with UFAs, and keep on rolling. They could become perennially strong a la New Jersey, if not Detroit.

I said it at the time: the 2009 rebuild was all about the kids. It was about getting players who were closer in age to the team's rising youth (at least at forward) and who could help them grow while still being competitive when they came of age. Unfortunately, pickings at D were comparatively slim so Gainey had to go with older players as stopgap measures. This is the year where the unit gets younger, though, to match Subban, Gorges, and potentially Weber.
The thing with defense is that its usually pretty easy to get servicible veteran defender at reasonable cost. This is one of the best places to get your money's worth for reasonable cost on the UFA market. If you have the money you can even go upscale like Pittsburg and Vancouver did last summer and accomulate top-4 veteran defensemen for your cup run. A team can do reasonably well by cycling free agent defensemen so long as they have a a couple good homegrown blueliners to hold it together. Finding veteran impact forwards is much harder and usually more expensive.

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04-30-2011, 11:34 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
The thing with defense is that its usually pretty easy to get servicible veteran defender at reasonable cost. This is one of the best places to get your money's worth for reasonable cost on the UFA market. If you have the money you can even go upscale like Pittsburg and Vancouver did last summer and accomulate top-4 veteran defensemen for your cup run. A team can do reasonably well by cycling free agent defensemen so long as they have a a couple good homegrown blueliners to hold it together. Finding veteran impact forwards is much harder and usually more expensive.
One key about defense, I think, is that you need what I like to call "That #1 Guy"... that all-situations #1 man who handles your toughest minutes and can do so while carrying a less gifted partner. This is the kind of guy a team will rip their roster up and/or sign big long-term contracts to get. And if you don't have him then you need two quality D-men to form your first pair, and that can be tricky to do. I think #1 D-men are the most impactful players in the game.

Montreal potential has two That Guys in Markov and Subban, who demonstrated their ability to carry less gifted partners and form effective top pairings. If the Habs can manage to have those two pivoting their top two pairings (with the occasionnal "shock treatment" of using both together at the end of close games), the scaffolding around them doesn't need to be first rate. And yet they have the underrated-here Spacek and the underrated-everywhere-else Gorges to create the foundations of that defensive scaffolding.

Montreal is going to be hard-pressed NOT to ice one of the deepest and best defenses in the conference.

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05-01-2011, 12:01 AM
  #178
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One key about defense, I think, is that you need what I like to call "That #1 Guy"... that all-situations #1 man who handles your toughest minutes and can do so while carrying a less gifted partner. This is the kind of guy a team will rip their roster up and/or sign big long-term contracts to get. And if you don't have him then you need two quality D-men to form your first pair, and that can be tricky to do. I think #1 D-men are the most impactful players in the game.

Montreal potential has two That Guys in Markov and Subban, who demonstrated their ability to carry less gifted partners and form effective top pairings. If the Habs can manage to have those two pivoting their top two pairings (with the occasionnal "shock treatment" of using both together at the end of close games), the scaffolding around them doesn't need to be first rate. And yet they have the underrated-here Spacek and the underrated-everywhere-else Gorges to create the foundations of that defensive scaffolding.

Montreal is going to be hard-pressed NOT to ice one of the deepest and best defenses in the conference.
Anyone that doubts the "That Guy" theory of defense man impact can just look at Nashville, were the combination of two number one quality all situations impact defensemen and a good goalie pipeline allow them to be a perinneal playoff team while icing an unispiring forward group. If there is a model for how the current Canadiens can be a successful franchise it is as the Eastern Nashville that can spend to the cap. Meaning that they'll also be able to have players like Plekanec, Cammalleri and Gionta to lead the forward group.

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05-01-2011, 02:24 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post

I said it at the time: the 2009 rebuild was all about the kids. It was about getting players who were closer in age to the team's rising youth (at least at forward) and who could help them grow while still being competitive when they came of age. Unfortunately, pickings at D were comparatively slim so Gainey had to go with older players as stopgap measures. This is the year where the unit gets younger, though, to match Subban, Gorges, and potentially Weber.
this is kind of hard to take seriously...

S.Kost, Latendresse, R.O'byrne, Lapierre, D'agostini and Chipchura made up the bulk of the prime "youths" in the organization going into the summer of '09, and if your theory is correct, would have to have been a huge part the core of the young players that the 09 rebuild would have been about as they were the young players closest to the NHL (or in it) who would have been/were NHL ready to play with the group of players brought in...

and in case you haven't noticed, all of the are gone, and all of them were "closer in age" to the core group we brought in than the young players from that time that we actually still have (Subban, Weber, MaxPac, White, DD).

sorry but I'm not buying that line of reasoning one bit.



also, the 09' UFA defensemen group was actually pretty heavy in terms of players in the skill level of a Spacek or Gill.

Gill turned out great, but Spacek was, in retrospect (although at the time several posters felt it would end this way, including myself), BY FAR the worst defenseman signing of that group.

Several other options were available, and none of them required as big of a commitment in salary and/or term.

http://www.sportscity.com/nhl/2009-n...ition/#Defense

look for yourself.



the 09 moves reaked of desperation and a lack of a clear vision, and thus far, little of the results have shown anything to change that.

we were wrong about Gomez, Spacek and Mara.

Gionta is a toss-up (he's been good, not great, and his price tag is quite heavy for such a one-dimensional player)

cammy, gill and Moen have more/or/less delivered, with Gill probably the most consistent on that front.

and the "misses" were far bigger than the "hits"...

hard to build a contender when operating that way.

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05-01-2011, 03:10 AM
  #180
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this is kind of hard to take seriously...

S.Kost, Latendresse, R.O'byrne, Lapierre, D'agostini and Chipchura made up the bulk of the prime "youths" in the organization going into the summer of '09, and if your theory is correct, would have to have been a huge part the core of the young players that the 09 rebuild would have been about as they were the young players closest to the NHL (or in it) who would have been/were NHL ready to play with the group of players brought in...

and in case you haven't noticed, all of the are gone, and all of them were "closer in age" to the core group we brought in than the young players from that time that we actually still have (Subban, Weber, MaxPac, White, DD).

sorry but I'm not buying that line of reasoning one bit.



also, the 09' UFA defensemen group was actually pretty heavy in terms of players in the skill level of a Spacek or Gill.

Gill turned out great, but Spacek was, in retrospect (although at the time several posters felt it would end this way, including myself), BY FAR the worst defenseman signing of that group.

Several other options were available, and none of them required as big of a commitment in salary and/or term.

http://www.sportscity.com/nhl/2009-n...ition/#Defense

look for yourself.



the 09 moves reaked of desperation and a lack of a clear vision, and thus far, little of the results have shown anything to change that.

we were wrong about Gomez, Spacek and Mara.


Gionta is a toss-up (he's been good, not great, and his price tag is quite heavy for such a one-dimensional player)

cammy, gill and Moen have more/or/less delivered, with Gill probably the most consistent on that front.


and the "misses" were far bigger than the "hits"...

hard to build a contender when operating that way.

Summer 2009 would have been a success if Gomez delivered the same value that Gionta or Cammy bring.

The issue of that summer boils down to the Gomez trade, and really nothing else...

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05-01-2011, 10:26 AM
  #181
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
Summer 2009 would have been a success if Gomez delivered the same value that Gionta or Cammy bring.

The issue of that summer boils down to the Gomez trade, and really nothing else...
i'd say that the Spacek signing was a terrible move in its own right, the difference being that we didn't directly lose any assets, and through his first two years he's only been overpaid by 1-2M$/year, as opposed to the 4-5M$ Gomez wastes of our cap.


IF Gomez had come in and delivered a 70+point contribution, then of course it would have made the other bad decisions (Spacek/Mara) much more insignificant.

but IF doesn't apply. Fact is that the Gomez move has turned out horribly, and it was the biggest move/decision of that offseason, so I think it's more than fair to say that the collective decisions of '09 were a mistake.

until the current Habs brass is fully willing to own that, and to willing to do what it takes to fix that mistakes, we'll be continued to be weighed down by it.

no one would expect PG to throw Gainey under the bus (especially since he likely had a large role himself to play in the Gomez move, having been director of pro scouting at the time), but a little bit of mea culpa and/or implicit acknowledgment of the gaffe, and aggressive committment to addressing it, would be the right thing to do imo.

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05-01-2011, 11:26 AM
  #182
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I didn't like the article because Betrand is stupid.

I don't care about negatives. There are a few things I didn't like this season from Gauthier. One was trading Lapierre(but rumors are Lapierre asked for a trade), I didn't like the O'byrne trade much and I was disappointed when we didn't pick up Strum off of waivers for free when we had the chance.

The reason why I don't like Raymond is because he talks nothing into context ever and just complains about everything regardless of the greater picture. For God sakes this is the same man that said MAB is as good as Wisniewski if not better. He even complained about the Wisniewski trade which one of Gauthier's best so far.

Why I don't like the article is for the following:

Gauthier inherted the team a year and 2 months ago and had little cap space to work with. Moreover, he had a crap load of injuries and two very big injuries to very significant players. He spent an entire year bandaging up a team. But then you'll say why even bandage it up, we should have just tanked and get a higher draft pick. We were in third place for a good part of the first half and 5th for a good portion as well. Why the hell would they just give up at that point...no team in that position ever does that.

Fact is, we have very little to evaluate Gauthier on this season. His true test comes this summer where he has 30 million dollars to spend to re-work the backend. I'll reserve my judgement until then and not assume anything before hand.

The team improved it's record upon last year run with almost a similar core. It trended upwards(despite the significant injuries) and not backwards.

Also what he doesn't get credit for is the moves he doesn't make. Everyone whined when Gauthier didn't re-sign Moore at 1.1 million for two years. Re-signing Moore would have not opened any spots up for Desharnais and Eller to show us what they can do at the pro-level. And guess what? Now everyone is putting them as a part of our core.

There's a difference between being sheep and constant whining. I'm neither. On a board full of negatives, I like to point out the positives to show that it isn't all doom and gloom, but in no way do I agree with everything. I just don't whine about the things I don't agree on constantly.

As for Asterix. I'm glad you still stand by Penner. Bad contract for another year and we would have had to given up too much(the man produces at almsot the same rate at Andrei, provides less intagibles, but gets paid 1 million more). Trades like Penner is what hurts teams, it doesn't ameliorate them. Had we traded for Penner we'd be down a 17th overall pick and probably Tinordi for a player who is hardly any better than a player you dislike(Andrei Kostitsyn, who btw had just as good of a season as your love-child).

I like the direction the team is headed and I think we have a pretty good core for a team that, aside from Price, hasn't had many draft picks. Eller, Plekanec, Cammalleri, Price, Subban, Pacioretty, Gorges and hopefully Markov is a pretty good core to build upon. We're trending upwards rather than the opposite direction and our record this year proved it. Hell with significant injuries to key players we were as good if not as some points better than the Boston Bruins, who btw everyone thinks is a superior team to ours with a superior GM. A GM so good that he traded a PMD for Horton and then spent the entire year trying to get one back and in doing so, he wasted a 1st round pick and a good prospect for 3 months of a crappy Kaberle. Could you imagine Gauthier made a move like that. He'd be crusified.
Your post is thoughtful and measured. I haven't decided how to characterize Bertrand Raymond. Is he is a hyperactive child with an attention deficit disorder or an adult with an id run wild? At academic lectures the professors would ignore his raised hand because after the first few times they call on him they learn that another dyspeptic, petulant rant would issue from his big fat mouth to the embarrassment of everyone seeling enlightenment.


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05-01-2011, 12:02 PM
  #183
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I like the direction the team is headed and I think we have a pretty good core for a team that, aside from Price, hasn't had many draft picks. Eller, Plekanec, Cammalleri, Price, Subban, Pacioretty, Gorges and hopefully Markov is a pretty good core to build upon. We're trending upwards rather than the opposite direction and our record this year proved it. Hell with significant injuries to key players we were as good if not as some points better than the Boston Bruins, who btw everyone thinks is a superior team to ours with a superior GM. A GM so good that he traded a PMD for Horton and then spent the entire year trying to get one back and in doing so, he wasted a 1st round pick and a good prospect for 3 months of a crappy Kaberle. Could you imagine Gauthier made a move like that. He'd be crusified.
Just like to say I agree with your entire post in general, just didn't want to quote it all.

I was one of the ones that was interested in Kaberle as UFA at the beginning of the season, I honestly think a lot of people we're. Once I learnt Wisniewski was being shopped I was definitely leaning the way that we should try and acquire him instead on the basis that he'd cost less and he provides some toughness. Boy am I glad that's how it unravelled for us rather than trading for Kaberle... I can't imagine, losing say a 1st round pick and Kristo/Leblanc/whatever to the LEAFS for Kaberle who has played like a border-line NHL caliber defenseman since the trade.

What boggles my mind is that I even saw people including Kaberle in our 2011-2012 defense plans in various posts made DURING the playoffs... Did these people actually watch the games? He was outright terrible, he was outplayed by just about everyone on our current defense squad despite some of them being much older than him. I think Kaberle has played himself into the 3M range as a UFA signing, if I was looking at signing him. Of course someone will likely take a chance on him at a higher cost, I just sure heck hope it isn't PG and the Habs.

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05-04-2011, 03:15 PM
  #184
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ArponBasu Arpon Basu
@SeriousFan09 According to Gauthier, his contract status is irrelevant. He didn't seem all that enthused when I asked about Yemelin

ArponBasu Arpon Basu
@SeriousFan09 actually unenthused was a poor description. He was more annoyed by my question. Gave me the sense he's already sick of the guy

ArponBasu Arpon Basu
@MAGodin OK, I wasn't alone in getting that impression. His comment on whether KHL contracts even mean anything was pretty telling

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05-04-2011, 03:52 PM
  #185
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It's too bad Yemelin isn't coming over next season, I feel like he'd be an amazing asset, hopefully they can work something out someday.

Montreal took Boston to the OT in Game 7 and were down their top 2 d-men from last season and Wizniewski didn't play game 6 and was a complete non factor in game 7 and for lots of time I believe Weber was out there in his place.

Subban was amazing, everything I hoped he'd be and more, the kid is the real deal. So is Carey Price.

I don't think Gionta is one dimensional and he's only over paid due to the fact that he was a UFA, but you know that going into acquiring UFA's.


I am absolutely certain if Gomez doesn't turn his career around to the extent that he's at least a half decent 2nd line center option to Plekanec they WILL send him to the minors, or move him out in some fashion. They did not sign him, they made a trade and gave up assets to acquire him...by January next year Gomez will be gone if he doesn't turn things around next year.

I believe in Gomez by the way, I think him Pacioretty and Gionta will form a great top 6 option to go along with Cammalleri Plekanec and Kostitsyn.

Time will tell, it will definitely be an interesting Summer.

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05-04-2011, 04:18 PM
  #186
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It's too bad Yemelin isn't coming over next season, I feel like he'd be an amazing asset, hopefully they can work something out someday.

Montreal took Boston to the OT in Game 7 and were down their top 2 d-men from last season and Wizniewski didn't play game 6 and was a complete non factor in game 7 and for lots of time I believe Weber was out there in his place.

Subban was amazing, everything I hoped he'd be and more, the kid is the real deal. So is Carey Price.

I don't think Gionta is one dimensional and he's only over paid due to the fact that he was a UFA, but you know that going into acquiring UFA's.


I am absolutely certain if Gomez doesn't turn his career around to the extent that he's at least a half decent 2nd line center option to Plekanec they WILL send him to the minors, or move him out in some fashion. They did not sign him, they made a trade and gave up assets to acquire him...by January next year Gomez will be gone if he doesn't turn things around next year.

I believe in Gomez by the way, I think him Pacioretty and Gionta will form a great top 6 option to go along with Cammalleri Plekanec and Kostitsyn.

Time will tell, it will definitely be an interesting Summer.
He hand a broken hand

Give the man a break.

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05-04-2011, 04:39 PM
  #187
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He hand a broken hand

Give the man a break.
You misunderstand me Richie, I was just saying that in terms of Montreal their defence was SEVERELY hurting, not knocking Wizniewski for being out game 6 and a non factor. Kudos for him for even attempting to play!

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