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Trade Value of Habs Players

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Old
04-30-2011, 02:28 PM
  #51
Hackett
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the way he progressed this season is remarkable. You could see early on that the plan was to ease him in gently, but as the defensive injuries mounted, there was no choice but to throw him into the fire. Sure, the road had its bumps, but at the end of the day, you could argue that he was the habs best player along with price.

The experiences he went through this season makes me very excited about next year when you add gorges and markov into the equation. His quick emergence has opened alot of options.

Since I have him at Price's level, he's invaluable. Great cap value for the time being.

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05-01-2011, 06:09 PM
  #52
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The experiences he went through this season makes me very excited about next year when you add gorges and markov into the equation. His quick emergence has opened alot of options.
Ya, he's been our savior really. The only thing to possibly be concerned with is the ''sophomore'' slump that infects some.


....

As for his value -- Top young d-men are just as valuable as top young centers.

He's the teams greatest asset in terms of market value, which is boosted by his young age / contract status. Price might be the MVP, but goalies don't command as much return.

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05-01-2011, 06:49 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
Ya, he's been our savior really. The only thing to possibly be concerned with is the ''sophomore'' slump that infects some.


....

As for his value -- Top young d-men are just as valuable as top young centers.

He's the teams greatest asset in terms of market value, which is boosted by his young age / contract status. Price might be the MVP, but goalies don't command as much return.
You know, imo he might already have had his sophomore slump in the first part of the year. He had fantastic playoffs, and came out strong but then slumped and got benched. Took him a while to get back on track, but then he became the force he is now. I'm actually thinking that his 2nd year slump might very well have been done already. I hope so anyway...

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05-01-2011, 07:05 PM
  #54
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The deals in this thread are simply mind blowing.

Jeff Carter?
Shea Weber?!
Evgeni Malkin?!
Pavel Datsyuk?!

Wow, okay there is overvaluing Subban and then there is being just a blind homer. We have nothing, nothing that would ever motivate Detroit to move Datsyuk and if by some miracle Pittsburgh actually enticed the notion of moving Malkin. Here is what we would be looking at for him...

Mike Cammalleri
Max Pacioretty
Louis Leblanc
P.K. Subban
First Round 2011

And I would not be surprised if they swapped in Plekanec. Shea Weber would have almost a similar deal except they would demand Plek. Hell we still might have to add for either and we would be taking back salary to compensate.

Seriously guys these are league elite players, not second tier. You basically have to dismantle your team to acquire one via trade unless you have someone of equal value, and no Subban is not even a fraction of Datsyuk or Malkin's value.

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05-01-2011, 07:24 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne View Post
The deals in this thread are simply mind blowing.

Jeff Carter?
Shea Weber?!
Evgeni Malkin?!
Pavel Datsyuk?!

Wow, okay there is overvaluing Subban and then there is being just a blind homer. We have nothing, nothing that would ever motivate Detroit to move Datsyuk and if by some miracle Pittsburgh actually enticed the notion of moving Malkin. Here is what we would be looking at for him...

Mike Cammalleri
Max Pacioretty
Louis Leblanc
P.K. Subban
First Round 2011

And I would not be surprised if they swapped in Plekanec. Shea Weber would have almost a similar deal except they would demand Plek. Hell we still might have to add for either and we would be taking back salary to compensate.

Seriously guys these are league elite players, not second tier. You basically have to dismantle your team to acquire one via trade unless you have someone of equal value, and no Subban is not even a fraction of Datsyuk or Malkin's value.
This.

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Old
05-01-2011, 10:21 PM
  #56
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PK wearing the CH jersey until at least the age of 35yrs old...YES!!!!


No team will offer something we cannot say no to, so...

PK Subban will wear the CH for a long, long, long time.



I like hypothetical trades, but...we finally have a dman who is extremely exciting to watch and has a huge load of talent/skills, potential (sky's the limit) and lots of heart (real winner). And he seems to be an iron-man.

Everybody is after him trying to body-check check him to the hospital and he's always aware of what is coming...something Markov could use.

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Old
05-01-2011, 10:53 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne View Post
The deals in this thread are simply mind blowing.

Jeff Carter?
Shea Weber?!
Evgeni Malkin?!
Pavel Datsyuk?!

Wow, okay there is overvaluing Subban and then there is being just a blind homer. We have nothing, nothing that would ever motivate Detroit to move Datsyuk and if by some miracle Pittsburgh actually enticed the notion of moving Malkin. Here is what we would be looking at for him...

Mike Cammalleri
Max Pacioretty
Louis Leblanc
P.K. Subban
First Round 2011


And I would not be surprised if they swapped in Plekanec. Shea Weber would have almost a similar deal except they would demand Plek. Hell we still might have to add for either and we would be taking back salary to compensate.

Seriously guys these are league elite players, not second tier. You basically have to dismantle your team to acquire one via trade unless you have someone of equal value, and no Subban is not even a fraction of Datsyuk or Malkin's value.
You're overvaluing Datsyuk and Malkin with that ridiculous and overpriced trade. If you think he's being a Habs homer, you're being the total opposite.

With Lidstrom likely leaving soon, Detroit would probably be enticed by a formative/starting offer of Plex+Subban for Datsyuk, and you can bet your food exit that Holland won't hang up. And in a few years it will be a steal for Detroit. Datsyuk is 32 btw. You know, there are other factors than just plain simple value to consider.

Personally, I wouldn't even trade Subban one-on-one for Datsyuk, or any other player for that matter. But as far as his value goes, you seem completely blind to what we have as a player, not only for his high talent and potential to get even higher, but also the window of low cap hit he has.

Habs management state of mind towards Subban is probably the same as Detroit vs Datsyuk. They are franchise players and rarely get traded and even less likely traded for one another, no matter the small difference in actual talent and impact they might have in comparison.

Do you really wanna argue that Subban is not a franchise player in the making. It's obvious to any GM and know full well the price would be high for the Habs to trade him. Your view of the difference in talent is ridiculous and isn't realistic.


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Old
05-02-2011, 02:27 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
You're overvaluing Datsyuk and Malkin with that ridiculous and overpriced trade. If you think he's being a Habs homer, you're being the total opposite.

With Lidstrom likely leaving soon, Detroit would probably be enticed by a formative/starting offer of Plex+Subban for Datsyuk, and you can bet your food exit that Holland won't hang up. And in a few years it will be a steal for Detroit. Datsyuk is 32 btw. You know, there are other factors than just plain simple value to consider.
I wouldn't have the need to bet. Holland would hang up in an instant, primarily because nothing barring one of the top five players in the league would motivate him to trade Datsyuk. He is twice the player Plekanec is and his departure would be an enormous blow to the Red Wings, especially when Lidstrom retires. Speaking of whom, please tell me you have not insinuated Subban has the potential to enter Lidstrom's tier.

No I am not overvaluing him. Malkin is arguably the fourth best player in the NHL. He is a 100+ point player on a given average and is all of twenty four. Pittsburgh has no reason to move him excluding gross overpayment and would hang up on anything less. Subban has a single season under his pelt. His value is not even close to either of the two.

As for age, interesting. I seem to recall Datsyuk plays with someone relatively old, with a plethora of Norris trophies, is still considered the best defensemen in the league. Actually I believe I mentioned him here already and he is pushing forty one, non?

Jesting aside, you must never have watched Datsyuk play. He is debatably the best overall player in the league. This season alone he was on pace for 90+ until his injury. That is almost double everyone excluding Plekanec on our roster and his defensive play is simply phenomenal. You can debate age to your hearts desire but as of this moment Datsyuk has significantly more value than Subban.

Quote:
Personally, I wouldn't even trade Subban one-on-one for Datsyuk, or any other player for that matter. But as far as his value goes, you seem completely blind to what we have as a player, not only for his high talent and potential to get even higher, but also the window of low cap hit he has.
... and this is where you solidify you are officially worse than Leaf fans for overvaluing your favorite player. Translated, you have just said you would not trade Subban straight up for, Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Weber, Doughty, Keith, Sedins, Kesler, Parise and the list the goes on. If any of those players were offered for Subban and you refused. Congratulations, Mike Milbury is not the worst GM in NHL history anymore.

I know precisely what we have as a player here. A talented young defensemen with upper tier potential. Everyone on that list is still better, and by a considerable to enormous margin, depending on who you compare him to and you would be out of your mind to refuse a straight up trade for anyof them. Do yourself a favor, watch Ryan Kesler in the Nashville series. Scoreless he is still the best player on both teams combined, excluding maybe Rinne. This is a guy who just put up forty one goals in the season. He would be what Montreal fans drool over at center.

Cap hit is irrelevant when you consider Subban's is up for a renewal next year, and if he is as good as you believe he will be. We will be paying him $6m or he will get an offer elsewhere.

Quote:
Habs management state of mind towards Subban is probably the same as Detroit vs Datsyuk. They are franchise players and rarely get traded and even less likely traded for one another, no matter the small difference in actual talent and impact they might have in comparison.

Do you really wanna argue that Subban is not a franchise player in the making. It's obvious to any GM and know full well the price would be high for the Habs to trade him. Your view of the difference in talent is ridiculous and isn't realistic.
Mate... this is one season, one season. Now read that back again, and one more time just to be certain in sunk in. You are calling Subban a franchise player, and comparing him to arguably the best overall player in the league based on one season. Do you realize how ridiculous this sounds? Subban is not a franchise player, he is a considerably talented with upper tier level potential by current estimation. You want a franchise defenseman? Watch Drew Doughty last season. Just to settle in comparisons, Doughty was up for the Norris in only his second season. That is a franchise defenseman. Could Subban emulate Doughty's success? Certainly, but it is debatable if he ever will.

If in two years Subban has continued to elevate his game and is a perpetual 50+ point player, as his game is liable to accumulate a larger point production, then we can have this decision. Until then, you have no idea what in the world you are talking about. I guarantee outside of some other Hab fans, no one would agree with you Plekanec and Subban are worth Datsyuk or Malkin.

Edit:

Just to do an overview of why it would cost so much...

Cammalleri: Inconsistent forward, who is slightly overpaid; has a deadly wrist shot, is strong in the offensive zone but invisible when not scoring. Elevates his game noticeably in the playoffs
Pacioretty: Unproven power forward with reasonable ceiling, solid battler alongside the boards, grinds his way to the net; a perpetual 50-60 cailber player.
Subban: Fantastic rookie season, albeit has defensive lapses that need development, has a booming slap shot, solid puck control, is an excellent skater and can handle a heavy workload. High potential; top twenty, as early as next season.
LeBlanc: No NHL experience. Is a good tier prospect, liable to be a productive player but estimations suggest 60-70s point total at best.
First Round: Weak draft

Subban is the only one with anything close to Malkin's level at this current time, hence the gross overpayment it would require.


Last edited by Bourne Endeavor: 05-02-2011 at 03:10 AM.
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Old
05-02-2011, 06:57 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Bourne View Post
The deals in this thread are simply mind blowing.

Jeff Carter?
Shea Weber?!
Evgeni Malkin?!
Pavel Datsyuk?!

Wow, okay there is overvaluing Subban and then there is being just a blind homer. We have nothing, nothing that would ever motivate Detroit to move Datsyuk and if by some miracle Pittsburgh actually enticed the notion of moving Malkin. Here is what we would be looking at for him...

Mike Cammalleri
Max Pacioretty
Louis Leblanc
P.K. Subban
First Round 2011
And I would not be surprised if they swapped in Plekanec. Shea Weber would have almost a similar deal except they would demand Plek. Hell we still might have to add for either and we would be taking back salary to compensate.

Seriously guys these are league elite players, not second tier. You basically have to dismantle your team to acquire one via trade unless you have someone of equal value, and no Subban is not even a fraction of Datsyuk or Malkin's value.
Now you're the one going completely extreme the other way. WAY WAY too much for Malkin. Never happening in a million year. Pittsburgh would jump all over this in a split second and run away with it.

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Old
05-02-2011, 07:00 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Bourne View Post
I wouldn't have the need to bet. Holland would hang up in an instant, primarily because nothing barring one of the top five players in the league would motivate him to trade Datsyuk. He is twice the player Plekanec is and his departure would be an enormous blow to the Red Wings, especially when Lidstrom retires. Speaking of whom, please tell me you have not insinuated Subban has the potential to enter Lidstrom's tier.

No I am not overvaluing him. Malkin is arguably the fourth best player in the NHL. He is a 100+ point player on a given average and is all of twenty four. Pittsburgh has no reason to move him excluding gross overpayment and would hang up on anything less. Subban has a single season under his pelt. His value is not even close to either of the two.

As for age, interesting. I seem to recall Datsyuk plays with someone relatively old, with a plethora of Norris trophies, is still considered the best defensemen in the league. Actually I believe I mentioned him here already and he is pushing forty one, non?

Jesting aside, you must never have watched Datsyuk play. He is debatably the best overall player in the league. This season alone he was on pace for 90+ until his injury. That is almost double everyone excluding Plekanec on our roster and his defensive play is simply phenomenal. You can debate age to your hearts desire but as of this moment Datsyuk has significantly more value than Subban.



... and this is where you solidify you are officially worse than Leaf fans for overvaluing your favorite player. Translated, you have just said you would not trade Subban straight up for, Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Weber, Doughty, Keith, Sedins, Kesler, Parise and the list the goes on. If any of those players were offered for Subban and you refused. Congratulations, Mike Milbury is not the worst GM in NHL history anymore.

I know precisely what we have as a player here. A talented young defensemen with upper tier potential. Everyone on that list is still better, and by a considerable to enormous margin, depending on who you compare him to and you would be out of your mind to refuse a straight up trade for anyof them. Do yourself a favor, watch Ryan Kesler in the Nashville series. Scoreless he is still the best player on both teams combined, excluding maybe Rinne. This is a guy who just put up forty one goals in the season. He would be what Montreal fans drool over at center.

Cap hit is irrelevant when you consider Subban's is up for a renewal next year, and if he is as good as you believe he will be. We will be paying him $6m or he will get an offer elsewhere.



Mate... this is one season, one season. Now read that back again, and one more time just to be certain in sunk in. You are calling Subban a franchise player, and comparing him to arguably the best overall player in the league based on one season. Do you realize how ridiculous this sounds? Subban is not a franchise player, he is a considerably talented with upper tier level potential by current estimation. You want a franchise defenseman? Watch Drew Doughty last season. Just to settle in comparisons, Doughty was up for the Norris in only his second season. That is a franchise defenseman. Could Subban emulate Doughty's success? Certainly, but it is debatable if he ever will.

If in two years Subban has continued to elevate his game and is a perpetual 50+ point player, as his game is liable to accumulate a larger point production, then we can have this decision. Until then, you have no idea what in the world you are talking about. I guarantee outside of some other Hab fans, no one would agree with you Plekanec and Subban are worth Datsyuk or Malkin.

Edit:

Just to do an overview of why it would cost so much...

Cammalleri: Inconsistent forward, who is slightly overpaid; has a deadly wrist shot, is strong in the offensive zone but invisible when not scoring. Elevates his game noticeably in the playoffs
Pacioretty: Unproven power forward with reasonable ceiling, solid battler alongside the boards, grinds his way to the net; a perpetual 50-60 cailber player.
Subban: Fantastic rookie season, albeit has defensive lapses that need development, has a booming slap shot, solid puck control, is an excellent skater and can handle a heavy workload. High potential; top twenty, as early as next season.
LeBlanc: No NHL experience. Is a good tier prospect, liable to be a productive player but estimations suggest 60-70s point total at best.
First Round: Weak draft

Subban is the only one with anything close to Malkin's level at this current time, hence the gross overpayment it would require.
Give it up, you are way off here. You say people over rate here, but you sir, are a major under rater. Habs would never give up that much. That's a Lindros type of deal, which means NO NO.

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05-02-2011, 07:05 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Quarantesix View Post
sorry man but you are way wrong.

Malkin could produce more than everyone in the Habs playing with Darche and Moen.

MaxPac is good but they have Kennedy and he's very underated and still very young.They don't need MaxPac

I love Subban but Pens D squad is already really good.

Max Pac and Subban <<<< Malkin if we are talking winning cups.

Pens center depth is incredible

Crosby
Malkin
Staal.

They already won a cup with these guys and their team will be better next year.
I'm not so sure about that Malkin is on his second straight season that was significantly cut short by injury and also his offensive production has been sub-par also.

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Old
05-02-2011, 09:25 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Dirty Danglez View Post
Straight up I'd say its fair value, however neither team would do it.
fair trade but no deal

folks I usally dont overate our players like most of you

but Pk is a superstar in the making

if he can tone it down a bit ....he will have Norris Trophies in his case

I trade him for no one right now ....the best building block on D in 15 years

Markov doesnt have his game breaking ability and isnt as strong as PK can be

with him and Price we are ok to build with

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05-02-2011, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
You're overvaluing Datsyuk and Malkin with that ridiculous and overpriced trade. If you think he's being a Habs homer, you're being the total opposite.

With Lidstrom likely leaving soon, Detroit would probably be enticed by a formative/starting offer of Plex+Subban for Datsyuk, and you can bet your food exit that Holland won't hang up. And in a few years it will be a steal for Detroit. Datsyuk is 32 btw. You know, there are other factors than just plain simple value to consider.

Personally, I wouldn't even trade Subban one-on-one for Datsyuk, or any other player for that matter. But as far as his value goes, you seem completely blind to what we have as a player, not only for his high talent and potential to get even higher, but also the window of low cap hit he has.

Habs management state of mind towards Subban is probably the same as Detroit vs Datsyuk. They are franchise players and rarely get traded and even less likely traded for one another, no matter the small difference in actual talent and impact they might have in comparison.

Do you really wanna argue that Subban is not a franchise player in the making. It's obvious to any GM and know full well the price would be high for the Habs to trade him. Your view of the difference in talent is ridiculous and isn't realistic.
People seem to ignore the fact that Malkin for Subban/Pac == high chance pens win a cup.... then they even go sign Laich too lol.

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05-02-2011, 12:16 PM
  #64
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According to the main board,PK's a #2 defenseman at best,so PK for Ohlund?


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05-02-2011, 12:24 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Bourne View Post
I wouldn't have the need to bet. Holland would hang up in an instant, primarily because nothing barring one of the top five players in the league would motivate him to trade Datsyuk. He is twice the player Plekanec is and his departure would be an enormous blow to the Red Wings, especially when Lidstrom retires. Speaking of whom, please tell me you have not insinuated Subban has the potential to enter Lidstrom's tier.

No I am not overvaluing him. Malkin is arguably the fourth best player in the NHL. He is a 100+ point player on a given average and is all of twenty four. Pittsburgh has no reason to move him excluding gross overpayment and would hang up on anything less. Subban has a single season under his pelt. His value is not even close to either of the two.

As for age, interesting. I seem to recall Datsyuk plays with someone relatively old, with a plethora of Norris trophies, is still considered the best defensemen in the league. Actually I believe I mentioned him here already and he is pushing forty one, non?

Jesting aside, you must never have watched Datsyuk play. He is debatably the best overall player in the league. This season alone he was on pace for 90+ until his injury. That is almost double everyone excluding Plekanec on our roster and his defensive play is simply phenomenal. You can debate age to your hearts desire but as of this moment Datsyuk has significantly more value than Subban.



... and this is where you solidify you are officially worse than Leaf fans for overvaluing your favorite player. Translated, you have just said you would not trade Subban straight up for, Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Weber, Doughty, Keith, Sedins, Kesler, Parise and the list the goes on. If any of those players were offered for Subban and you refused. Congratulations, Mike Milbury is not the worst GM in NHL history anymore.

I know precisely what we have as a player here. A talented young defensemen with upper tier potential. Everyone on that list is still better, and by a considerable to enormous margin, depending on who you compare him to and you would be out of your mind to refuse a straight up trade for anyof them. Do yourself a favor, watch Ryan Kesler in the Nashville series. Scoreless he is still the best player on both teams combined, excluding maybe Rinne. This is a guy who just put up forty one goals in the season. He would be what Montreal fans drool over at center.

Cap hit is irrelevant when you consider Subban's is up for a renewal next year, and if he is as good as you believe he will be. We will be paying him $6m or he will get an offer elsewhere.



Mate... this is one season, one season. Now read that back again, and one more time just to be certain in sunk in. You are calling Subban a franchise player, and comparing him to arguably the best overall player in the league based on one season. Do you realize how ridiculous this sounds? Subban is not a franchise player, he is a considerably talented with upper tier level potential by current estimation. You want a franchise defenseman? Watch Drew Doughty last season. Just to settle in comparisons, Doughty was up for the Norris in only his second season. That is a franchise defenseman. Could Subban emulate Doughty's success? Certainly, but it is debatable if he ever will.

If in two years Subban has continued to elevate his game and is a perpetual 50+ point player, as his game is liable to accumulate a larger point production, then we can have this decision. Until then, you have no idea what in the world you are talking about. I guarantee outside of some other Hab fans, no one would agree with you Plekanec and Subban are worth Datsyuk or Malkin.

Edit:

Just to do an overview of why it would cost so much...

Cammalleri: Inconsistent forward, who is slightly overpaid; has a deadly wrist shot, is strong in the offensive zone but invisible when not scoring. Elevates his game noticeably in the playoffs
Pacioretty: Unproven power forward with reasonable ceiling, solid battler alongside the boards, grinds his way to the net; a perpetual 50-60 cailber player.
Subban: Fantastic rookie season, albeit has defensive lapses that need development, has a booming slap shot, solid puck control, is an excellent skater and can handle a heavy workload. High potential; top twenty, as early as next season.
LeBlanc: No NHL experience. Is a good tier prospect, liable to be a productive player but estimations suggest 60-70s point total at best.
First Round: Weak draft

Subban is the only one with anything close to Malkin's level at this current time, hence the gross overpayment it would require.
You're living in the 80s-90s NHL where the difference in talent between the best and worst player was much much greater then than it is now.

Datsyuk isn't Mario Lemieux or Jagr or Gretzky.

And Subban finished with defensive stats (GAA) close to Norris candidates Vishnovsky and Chara, and also was able to get 0,50 ppg, which isn't that much behind those candidates. All that in his rookie season. Also, he has been used to shutdown the best players in the league (including Malkin and Crosby) and frustrated these players with dominant defensive play most of the time.

You're always taking Detroit's perspective in this and seem unable to realize that it would be the SAME prevailing attitude the Habs would have towards Subban, that the Habs, in an unrealistic world where GMs don't respect each other and always undervalue the players they wanna get vs the players they let go, would be asking for the moon themselves to let go of Subban.

When I look at defensemen, I look at their GAA vs TOI and matchups (top, 2nd or 3rd pairing) and these stats to me, equate offensive stats for forwards, and vice versa with offense from defense and defense from forwards. If I count out most stats this season for defensemen, Subban is somewhere between 15th and 30th for the best Dmen in the league, and unlike Myers last season, Subban has more physical attributes to develop further, which leads me to think that Subban will keep getting better. You can already count him as a #1 Dmen. So already there the value you give him is pretty low, and then not considering his potential to develop further.

You also completely leave aside the fact that Datsyuk is 32 and Subban 21, so on the long term, taking Subban over Datsyuk, for any team is just logically, in the end, be more profitable to take Subban over Datsyuk. NO matter if Lidstrom is playing at 41, doesn't mean that Datsyuk will do the same. Players who play further than their 40s are rare.

What I did with Subban, is to look at GAA, and he's got a similar GAA than Weber, Chara, Vishnovsky, Ehrhoff, while playing similar minutes, and all of them play in front of a good goalie, so that can't be used to differentiate the defensive stat between them. Although, Subban is the one who played with the least offensive support from his forwards, which all 4 have better than Subban, as they play with forwards who had much better stats and better offensive capacity than what Subban has. Then, I looked at the 'renowned' names who have finished with worst GAA than Subban while playing similar minutes, and you have Doughty, Myers, Keith, Seabrook, and many others who did worst on D than Subban.

That's what the GMs look at when they want to know the defensive capabilities of a player, and Subban already ranks very high.

Your definition of value is very much skewed by faulty notions. I have watched Datsyuk play many times. What you do not understand is that in the cap era, a player's value is much more than just his play on the ice. Already, you have the value on the ice wrong, as Subban's impact is close to Datsyuk (not equal yet, but close), you have to also consider age and cap hit.

The reason I wouldn't trade Subban over other franchise players is not because I'm a homer, but rather because I understand his value and impact better than you do. Funny, last season, some people were saying the same things as you are when I said in January'2010 that Subban was already ready for top 4 duty in the NHL and would quickly go on to be a top pairing D. I was right on both counts. Subban will probably be one of the most dominant D in the coming years, and I'll probably be right on this one too, and this is what you do not see, that GMs actually do see.


Last edited by Ozymandias: 05-02-2011 at 12:43 PM.
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05-02-2011, 01:06 PM
  #66
CastroLeRobot
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I would say at least 18 Darches
Or a whole team of Kostopouli


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05-02-2011, 01:56 PM
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I love hfboards, here subban is a avery type player with no value and on all hockey magazines and poolers they taught pk would get anywhere from 39 pts to 55 pts... as a rookie.... sure he has no value... he isnt worth a former 1st pick (Carter) who do close to a point on a STACKED team offensively... sure its impossible... the reason i said carter is because if a team would be able to let go of.a.forward its them.. anyways it was for fun, but in hfboard its all serious stuff lol, euh i meant ''sigh''

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05-02-2011, 01:58 PM
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I love hfboards, here subban is a avery type player with no value and on all hockey magazines and poolers they taught pk would get anywhere from 39 pts to 55 pts... as a rookie.... sure he has no value... he isnt worth a former 1st pick (Carter) who do close to a point on a STACKED team offensively... sure its impossible... the reason i said carter is because if a team would be able to let go of.a.forward its them.. anyways it was for fun, but in hfboard its all serious stuff lol. Oops

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05-02-2011, 02:10 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Subban76 View Post
Give it up, you are way off here. You say people over rate here, but you sir, are a major under rater. Habs would never give up that much. That's a Lindros type of deal, which means NO NO.
Did I say the Habs would give that up? No, but that is what Pittsburgh would demand. You may get away with dropping LeBlanc or the first but frankly I doubt it. You are asking for the fourth best player in the league.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neofury View Post
People seem to ignore the fact that Malkin for Subban/Pac == high chance pens win a cup.... then they even go sign Laich too lol.
Funny, I think Crosby/Malkin equal a good chance for a cup. Oh wait...

If we could acquire Malkin for Subban and Pacioretty. You make that trade and never look back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
The reason I wouldn't trade Subban over other franchise players is not because I'm a homer, but rather because I understand his value and impact better than you do. Funny, last season, some people were saying the same things as you are when I said in January'2010 that Subban was already ready for top 4 duty in the NHL and would quickly go on to be a top pairing D. I was right on both counts. Subban will probably be one of the most dominant D in the coming years, and I'll probably be right on this one too, and this is what you do not see, that GMs actually do see.
And yet you seeming neglect what impact those players would bring. Kesler and Parise would bring more to this team than Subban does and in a straight up offer, anyone would make the trade. Regardless, I could go on into pulling apart this ridiculous overvaluing of Subban however when you are already claiming he is possibly the top fifteen defenseman in the league and have equated his value close to Malkin or Datsyuk's, there frankly is not a point. I would say, "post this on the main forum and see how fast it is rightfully torn to pieces for thinking Subban/Pac is worth Malkin or Subban > Weber" but than we would have, "Oh well everyone just hates Subban!"

No mate, you are the biggest homer on this forum. This is an indisputable fact because you have essentially stated Subban has more value than Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Stamkos and the list goes on. I have not come across a fan here from any fanbase who is that blinded by their favorite player.

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05-02-2011, 02:34 PM
  #70
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Here's the more useful hypothetical, re-do the 2007 entry draft to see where PK would go. Here's mine:

1) Patrick Kane
2) PK Subban

Is there anyone else from that draft that you'd rather have?

HM: James Van Riemsdyk, Karl Alzner, Kevin Shattenkirk, Sam Gagner, Logan Couture, Max Pacioretty, David Perron, Wayne Simmonds, Jamie Benn, Jakub Voracek, Angelo Esposito.

If you happen to be a Boston fan, add in Zack Hamil and Tommy Cross too.

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05-02-2011, 02:49 PM
  #71
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Dude you're living in the pre-lockout NHL where salaries don't matter and potential is borderline meaningless.

In the post-lockout NHL salary means something, and I'm not saying all it would take is Subban/Pacioretty for Malkin but at this point I figure it's at the bare minimum a starting point and their GM doesn't necessarily hang up the phone. Plus citing that they won the cup with Crosby/Malkin already is meaningless, completely different team then than now. I don't see Pittsburgh winning a cup right now with how their team is setup. Going far? Sure.

You need to think of it from the perspective of a teams needs and the cap room. Getting rid of Malkin's salary and picking up two gifted young players who will be RFA still and sign cheaper than a UFA (and arguably could play equal or better) is a very hard thing to find in the new NHL. As a habs fan I'd never pull the trigger on this deal really so the point is moot from my end, but it doesn't mean it isn't worth discussing.

I don't think that (despite what you may think) their GM hangs up the phone. If anything he bites in a sense that he'll try to get more but would probably like what it's centered around. Two gifted young players that while they have no proven record are going to come cheap for many years and free up salary in the process allowing you to address another need.

This isn't the 1980s anymore, the salary cap matters and teams don't just think about who the better player in the deal is purely anymore, they think about how it will affect their cap and how it will allow them to maybe win one two maybe even three Stanley Cups.

You honestly think their GM is going to say "absolutely no" and hang up the phone when like 3 Stanley Cups possibly hang in the balance of a deal like this? I'm not saying he jumps to accept it, I'm just saying a deal could be worked out, it may not be the straight up deal that I mentioned but it certainly would not take all that you are mentioning, it would be probably a happy medium.

That being said I don't even want Malkin despite recognizing how good he is, if we go for a big trade it's Crosby I would consider or else keep your assets. You don't even in the slightest take into account the value a younger player with potential has, even if they're only slightly proven. It doesn't matter, these guys have some major value due to the fact that they're unproven but have that potential and won't cost the entire bank. These guys are worth it not just because of the players they are, but how it will effect the cap of ones team.

Pittsburgh frees up enough in this trade to just go out and sign Brad Richards, and if you don't think he'd take a discount after learning that they've moved Malkin for Pacioretty/Subban, even if that is as one sided a deal as you make it, the end result is having Subban/Pacioretty and Richards all for roughly the same price until the Subby/Patchy pay days come. (Post-RFA)

At the end of the day GM's build teams to win cups, they don't build teams to say "I won that trade". If you lose a trade but ultimately that trade helps make your team better and you go on to win a cup, the end result from their perspective is "Malkin-who?".

Obviously it's all hypothetical anyways but you severely undervalue Subban/Pacioretty to begin with and don't even take into account how much cap room Pittsburgh would be gaining in the process. You can't neglect that one fact and just put it on paper straight up like that. In the new NHL there is simply more to it then that.

I don't think you'd fine very many upset Pens fans if they did this deal as a result of trying to gain assets and free up cap space for another player who is also very good.

What did the unproven Erik Johnson land, are we talking just a guy like Pouliot + 3rd? Or are we talking two solid NHL players? Potential means something and if you don't believe it call up St. Louis' and Colorado's GM's.

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05-02-2011, 02:55 PM
  #72
Ozymandias
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And yet you seeming neglect what impact those players would bring. Kesler and Parise would bring more to this team than Subban does and in a straight up offer
Actually that's where your primary error is, in assuming their impact is higher.

I guess I have to rehash the whole speech on how complete #1 Defensemen are the most important players on most teams. They are central to all areas of the game, including the most important aspect, defense and breatouts from the defensive zone. Year after year, this gets proven more and more. Isn't it surprising that this is the first year where we don't do as bad without Markov. The simple reason is we had someone to replace him this time around. Any good goalie won't go far without one, any team won't be too good without a bonafide #1 D. There are exceptions, but they are way out of the norm. That's also the reason why I've been saying that people will be totally in awe if Markov, Subban and Price can stay healthy for a whole season, because just having those three in any lineup will make it one of the top teams.

Quote:
anyone would make the trade. Regardless, I could go on into pulling apart this ridiculous overvaluing of Subban however when you are already claiming he is possibly the top fifteen defenseman in the league and have equated his value close to Malkin or Datsyuk's,
You haven't looked at the stats, I have already put them on other threads, just do a search, among Dmen with 20+ minutes of play, Subban's GAA is one of the lowest ones in the league, among players such as Weber, Chara, Vishnovsky, Ehrhoff and Lidstrom who all have GAAs between 2,35 and 2,45 with very good goaltenders with not much difference with Price in terms of overall stats. And that's the primary key to evaluating a dman for his defensive play, not the +/-, which is GAA + GF on ES, which skewes the image of defensive play when that defenseman is supported by franchise forwards, which they all had, except for Subban.

Also, thanks for twisting my words, as I said BETWEEN 15th and 30th.

Quote:
there frankly is not a point. I would say, "post this on the main forum and see how fast it is rightfully torn to pieces for thinking Subban/Pac is worth Malkin or Subban > Weber" but than we would have, "Oh well everyone just hates Subban!"
Instead of that, I invite you to wait and see what the future will give. That's gonna be much more indicative than the general opinion of amateurs.

Quote:
No mate, you are the biggest homer on this forum. This is an indisputable fact because you have essentially stated Subban has more value than Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Stamkos and the list goes on.
No, refer to the top part of this present post. It's because I believe that #1 dmen are the most important piece to any team's success. Goalies used to hold that place just recently in the early 90s to mid 2000s, and centermen were the ones before that. Almost every team today has a goalie who has the capacity to go on a run, so as they might still be the most important, the difference maker will then be the second most important which are #1 Ds. Pittsburg struggled much more when they lost Gonchar to injury and had Malkin AND Crosby on the lineup, than without the two forwards and having Letang, Martin and Michalek healthy. The difference in records is astounding. And this pattern repeats with almost every team. Centermen are important, better centermen are chose over better wingers simply because that role is more important. And it's now the same for dmen. They have taken that place because the game has become very technical and strategic, and logically, that's the position where you would want the most talent. And I'm not the one making this up. People like Scotty Bowman seem to think likewise.

Personally, I've seen Lidstrom come into this league, and Subban's defensive dominance in his rookie season is very similar to what Lidstrom did, and coincidently, Lidstrom has said he likes to watch Subban play, quite probably because he sees similarities to when he first came into the league. I see it, and many people see it. He's a bonafide elite franchise D.

Quote:
I have not come across a fan here from any fanbase who is that blinded by their favorite player.
My favorite player is still Markov, just to show how deluded you are. Instead of attacking me, why don't you grow-up, open NHL.com, take a look at the stats section, chose TOI for the category of stats, take note of all the Dmen with 20+ minutes of average of TOI per game, collate this on a excel spreadsheet, then go to the plus/minus category, and filter through the GA collumn and find that number for every defenseman with 20+ minutes of TOIPG, than make a formula to calculate that player's GAA per game (60 minutes), and Subban is among the elite in Dmen in the league, in his rookie season. Likewise for the playoffs. While still being close for points per game, while also finishing in the top 10 in goals for all Dmen.

Also please note that I've been repeating this stuff about #1 Ds way before Subban came along. Many posters will attest to that. It has nothing to do with homerism, but rather has to do with our diverging conceptions of the impact of centerman vs defenseman, and I will always favor a franchise D over a franchise centerman, no matter if the centerman has a bigger reputation because of experience over a small actual difference in talent.

A homer won't give you a ton of arguments to state his case. Usually, homer posts don't run long and don't have much substance. I've noticed a recurring theme of your own though: Attacking the messenger instead of the message.

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05-02-2011, 03:10 PM
  #73
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You must not know Ozy very well if you just think he's some blind homer.

Maybe you just don't like Subban due to personal bias or disbelief that our management finally got a guy like him outside of the 1st round.

I mean heck if we're going to start making assumptions about people, my assumption about you would be that you're probably just some bigot who can't stand the fact that some "boy" is being heralded as the future superstar of our team.

Obviously I know this isn't likely true, but when you go around making assumptions about Ozy a quality poster, you need a reality check.

Just because his opinion differs from yours doesn't make him wrong/a homer/yahoo/whatever. He has stuff to back it up, he doesn't just deflect to a few of your weaker points repeatedly ignoring the quality points like you seem to be doing.


Last edited by neofury*: 05-02-2011 at 03:17 PM.
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05-02-2011, 03:14 PM
  #74
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Subban, Price and Pacioretty for the win!

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05-02-2011, 07:21 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by katatoniak View Post
Subban, Price and Pacioretty for the win!
This..and Eller

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