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Old
05-02-2011, 07:14 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by angry_treefrog View Post
Al Qaeda just had their head cut off. If they were going to do something spectacular, they would have already done so. That's not the concern.

It was apparently known within the US intelligence community that the inability to catch OBL was due to complicity of Pakistani intelligence agencies who kept their man one step ahead of the law (i.e. US troops). It was no oversight that Pakistan was not informed of the raid, nor was it thanked in BO's speech. With OBL hanging out in a neighborhood populated by retired Pakistani military and a half mile from the Pakistani military academy, it's pretty clear that elements of the Pakistani government/intelligence agencies are "against us". What is seperating these elements from Pakistan's nuclear arsenal? If there are any more attacks, don't look at Al Qaeda... no matter who takes credit. Look at the intelligence agencies of some of our enemies and "friends".
Very well said. You a smart one, frogger.

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05-02-2011, 09:33 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by angry_treefrog View Post
Al Qaeda just had their head cut off. If they were going to do something spectacular, they would have already done so. That's not the concern.

It was apparently known within the US intelligence community that the inability to catch OBL was due to complicity of Pakistani intelligence agencies who kept their man one step ahead of the law (i.e. US troops). It was no oversight that Pakistan was not informed of the raid, nor was it thanked in BO's speech. With OBL hanging out in a neighborhood populated by retired Pakistani military and a half mile from the Pakistani military academy, it's pretty clear that elements of the Pakistani government/intelligence agencies are "against us". What is seperating these elements from Pakistan's nuclear arsenal? If there are any more attacks, don't look at Al Qaeda... no matter who takes credit. Look at the intelligence agencies of some of our enemies and "friends".
Don't underestimate them. The experts think that Al Qaeda will try to pull off something big soon to show that they are still relevant. They also said that they are more decentralized than a few years ago, and more regionally independent which actually makes them more dangerous. Now they are not just trying to track one chain of commands, but many. Even if they don't pull something off, it would be naive to think they are just going to go away. These loonies will be around for decades, there's nothing we can do about that.

Obviously Pakistan was in on protecting Osama. There's no way he could have hidden out there for so long if they were really determined to catch him. That's just something we have to accept. I think we've known that for a long time. But there's a difference between a group of people just not telling us where Bin Laden is, and a group of extremists committed to killing as many Americans and other westerners as possible, and viewing it as God's wishes no less. It's taking the lesser of two evils.

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05-03-2011, 11:37 AM
  #128
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Don't underestimate them. The experts think that Al Qaeda will try to pull off something big soon to show that they are still relevant. They also said that they are more decentralized than a few years ago, and more regionally independent which actually makes them more dangerous. Now they are not just trying to track one chain of commands, but many. Even if they don't pull something off, it would be naive to think they are just going to go away. These loonies will be around for decades, there's nothing we can do about that.

Obviously Pakistan was in on protecting Osama. There's no way he could have hidden out there for so long if they were really determined to catch him. That's just something we have to accept. I think we've known that for a long time. But there's a difference between a group of people just not telling us where Bin Laden is, and a group of extremists committed to killing as many Americans and other westerners as possible, and viewing it as God's wishes no less. It's taking the lesser of two evils.
not really. i mean if those hiding him allowed him to help plan another major attack...

but based on what is available in reliable press outlets, it appears that our intelligence agencies no longer view al qaeda as a major threat. all of the recent attacks as well as foiled attempts at attacks were carried out by other better equipped and more efficient groups who appear to be mostly independent from (if nominally affiliated with) al qaeda. this was really symbolic closure for the US but in all likelihood will have zero impact on our security.

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05-03-2011, 02:25 PM
  #129
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not really. i mean if those hiding him allowed him to help plan another major attack...

but based on what is available in reliable press outlets, it appears that our intelligence agencies no longer view al qaeda as a major threat. all of the recent attacks as well as foiled attempts at attacks were carried out by other better equipped and more efficient groups who appear to be mostly independent from (if nominally affiliated with) al qaeda. this was really symbolic closure for the US but in all likelihood will have zero impact on our security.
They found what seems to be a massive amount of intel. Hard drives, memory sticks, cd's, etc. That certainly impacts our security.

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05-03-2011, 06:27 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
not really. i mean if those hiding him allowed him to help plan another major attack...

but based on what is available in reliable press outlets, it appears that our intelligence agencies no longer view al qaeda as a major threat. all of the recent attacks as well as foiled attempts at attacks were carried out by other better equipped and more efficient groups who appear to be mostly independent from (if nominally affiliated with) al qaeda. this was really symbolic closure for the US but in all likelihood will have zero impact on our security.
That's not what I've been seeing. Maybe they are not as big a threat as they were 10 years ago, but they are definitely still a threat to national security. Just because they haven't carried out any attacks in awhile doesn't mean they couldn't in the future. After the raid on Bin Laden they found documents that detailed planned future attacks. Even if you remove Bin Laden, that doesn't kill them, they are like a hydra another head will grow back.

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05-03-2011, 07:00 PM
  #131
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Hey ATF- our friends are the enemies friends, and you know what all three sections have in common?

Lots of $ and the ability to play with those who have no $.

Maybe we should stop focusing on things like the videos of training camps and start focusing on the people who have the hold on the technologies that allow the oversight and control of our both Middle Eastern and American societies.

Definitely don't wanna hear about religious jihad when they took out commercial buildings (God knows what was in that section of the pentagon that blew up that day) instead of churches and synagogues.

10,000+ American lives, trillions of tax dollars worth of military equipment, and they said Bin Laden caused it.
Then they say they kill him and give him a burial at sea without providing pictures (like of the Hussein family)?? GTF'inFO.


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05-03-2011, 10:53 PM
  #132
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They found what seems to be a massive amount of intel. Hard drives, memory sticks, cd's, etc. That certainly impacts our security.
IF they found and could decipher data found there, then yes, you're right. but, you have no idea what they found. reports were that they found storage devices but you don't know they've got anything meaningful or anything at all, really. first of all, there are means to secure whatever data that was kept there and depending on the technology they used, it may or may not be a difficult task to get anything from those devices. second, don't you think he knew someone would eventually get him? i would be very surprised if they found anything very meaningful there.

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05-04-2011, 04:45 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by CHGoalie72 View Post
Hey ATF- our friends are the enemies friends, and you know what all three sections have in common?

Lots of $ and the ability to play with those who have no $.

Maybe we should stop focusing on things like the videos of training camps and start focusing on the people who have the hold on the technologies that allow the oversight and control of our both Middle Eastern and American societies.

Definitely don't wanna hear about religious jihad when they took out commercial buildings (God knows what was in that section of the pentagon that blew up that day) instead of churches and synagogues.

10,000+ American lives, trillions of tax dollars worth of military equipment, and they said Bin Laden caused it.
Then they say they kill him and give him a burial at sea without providing pictures (like of the Hussein family)?? GTF'inFO.
The CIA director said they WILL release Bin Laden's death photos.

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IF they found and could decipher data found there, then yes, you're right. but, you have no idea what they found. reports were that they found storage devices but you don't know they've got anything meaningful or anything at all, really. first of all, there are means to secure whatever data that was kept there and depending on the technology they used, it may or may not be a difficult task to get anything from those devices. second, don't you think he knew someone would eventually get him? i would be very surprised if they found anything very meaningful there.
Quote:
"Thousands of documents" recovered from Osama bin Laden's compound in Pakistan could help the U.S. "destroy al-Qaida," U.S. officials told NBC News.
Quote:
NBC News reported Monday afternoon that the documents in both paper and electronic form on computers and portable computer drives were recovered Sunday when a U.S. commando team raided the three-story compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan, and killed bin Laden, 54, the founder of the Islamist network that killed more than 3,000 people in the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks in the United States.

U.S. officials confirmed Tuesday that 10 hard drives, five computers and more than 100 storage devices were recovered from the compound. The specific numbers were first reported Tuesday morning by CNN.

U.S. officials would not discuss details of what might be in the papers and on the computer drives, including whether the material was encrypted. But in an interview with NBC News' Brian Williams, CIA Director Leon Panetta said, "The reality is that we picked up an awful lot of information there at the compound."
Quote:
White House press secretary Jay Carney told reporters Tuesday that the information was believed to break down into three categories:

* "Evidence of planned attacks."
* "Information that could lead to other high-value targets or networks that we don't know about."
* "The sustaining network for bin Laden himself in Pakistan what allowed him to live in that compound as long as he did."
Quote:
Intelligence could be biggest win from raid
If that turns out to be true, the materials could turn out to be "as important (as), if not more important than, the actual killing of bin Laden," Richard Haass, president of the Council on Foreign Relations, a Washington-based policy institute, said in an interview with The Toronto Star.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42881728...den/?GT1=43001

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05-04-2011, 04:53 AM
  #134
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Guys, if we start discussing conspiracy theories here, we're crossing a line into politics - this topic has danced a thin line of acceptability as it is, but was significant enough a topic for many of us that I've allowed it. But any suspicions about whether it really happened or criticism about how it was done will have to go on the politics board, okay?

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05-04-2011, 11:47 AM
  #135
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anyhow, MR, i hadn't seen those quotes. if that's true, that'd be great. however, my original point - that al qaeda, or it's next leader, isn't the most pressing issue. even if the intelligence gained takes down al qaeda, we don't "win" the "war on terror".

Quote:
Leiter and other counterterrorism officials say that AQAP and other “franchises’’ have surpassed the original Pakistan-based al Qaeda in terms of speedy planning and imaginative attacks. They cite a further threat: the emergence of homegrown Islamist terrorists in the United States, such as the alleged Little Rock shooter, Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad, a 24-year-old Muslim convert formerly known as Carlos Bledsoe.

“Bin Laden personally, al Qaeda’s terrorist tradecraft, all of that is becoming less popular in most places in the world,’’ Leiter said in a December speech at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington.

The affiliates, he added, “no longer simply rely upon their linkages to al Qaeda senior leadership in Pakistan but they have in fact emerged more as self-sustaining, independent movements and organizations.”

Leiter also noted that the affiliates maintain “important tentacles back to al Qaeda senior leadership” but operate with a high degree of independence.

“And, frankly, they operate at a different pace and with a different level of complexity than does al Qaeda senior leadership, and that has complicated our task significantly,’’ Leiter added.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_856642.html


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05-05-2011, 03:13 AM
  #136
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anyhow, MR, i hadn't seen those quotes. if that's true, that'd be great. however, my original point - that al qaeda, or it's next leader, isn't the most pressing issue. even if the intelligence gained takes down al qaeda, we don't "win" the "war on terror".



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_856642.html
The senior leadership of Al Qaeda, or whatever you want to call it, may not be the most pressing issue, but I was just saying that they are still definitely a threat. Just because Bin Laden is gone doesn't mean Al Qaeda is dead, and I also agree that even if Al Qaeda is destroyed, the war on terror is not won. The CIA director said here Al Qaeda is damaged but not dead...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540...06536#42887470

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05-05-2011, 07:53 AM
  #137
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The senior leadership of Al Qaeda, or whatever you want to call it, may not be the most pressing issue, but I was just saying that they are still definitely a threat. Just because Bin Laden is gone doesn't mean Al Qaeda is dead, and I also agree that even if Al Qaeda is destroyed, the war on terror is not won. The CIA director said here Al Qaeda is damaged but not dead...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540...06536#42887470
The biggest threat to Al Qaeda is the Arab Spring. The Al Qaeda movement arose to get from under Arab govt. Dictatorship; today's youth discovered through peace and social media more can be accomplished then by blowing themselves up, making the Al Qaeda movement so "yesterday".

That is for most. For the few extremists, including HamaS as the only political (terorist) group to praise OBL, this was a huge moment, killing their spiritual leader and gaining a treasure trove of info, equally. Extremists will always be a threat, but we certainly minimized it Sunday. I hope the Arab spring continues so the Arab youth never feel again there is no way out, the etiology of Al Qaeda.

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05-05-2011, 05:58 PM
  #138
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wow, how quickly we found meaningful stuff from the bin laden raid....railway system on alert... great job Seals!!!!

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapc...ex.html?hpt=T2

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05-06-2011, 01:01 AM
  #139
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The biggest threat to Al Qaeda is the Arab Spring. The Al Qaeda movement arose to get from under Arab govt. Dictatorship; today's youth discovered through peace and social media more can be accomplished then by blowing themselves up, making the Al Qaeda movement so "yesterday".

That is for most. For the few extremists, including HamaS as the only political (terorist) group to praise OBL, this was a huge moment, killing their spiritual leader and gaining a treasure trove of info, equally. Extremists will always be a threat, but we certainly minimized it Sunday. I hope the Arab spring continues so the Arab youth never feel again there is no way out, the etiology of Al Qaeda.
Al Qaeda hasn't been minimalized or contained. Again, listen to the CIA director, he knows more about the pulse of the situation than practically anybody. And as other experts have said, distant cells and factions that broke off from Al Qaeda have become independent and in most cases are more dangerous than Al Qaeda now. And even if Al Qaeda is destroyed, they started an ideology that is going to keep on recruiting new members for generations, that will probably outlive Al Qaeda itself, an expert said. I'm 30, my granchildren will still be fighting the same fight. Even a guy who lost his son in the World Trade center said that he was disappointed when he saw videos of people dancing in the streets, he said the fight is far from over. Look at quotes from terror experts as well, they say the same thing.

Also, Al Qaeda's primary goal was not as a political backlash towards the Saudi govt., it was to get "the infidel" out of Muslim lands in the Middle East and strike as big a blow to the heart of our society as they could to weaken us. So while it's good that young people in that area of the world seem to be "getting it" a little more, this is evident on many fronts, it does not mean that Muslim extremists are yesterday's news. They are very much still in, and according to terror experts, all those groups as a whole are probably more dangerous and numerous than they were 10 years ago.

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05-06-2011, 06:59 AM
  #140
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Also, Al Qaeda's primary goal was not as a political backlash towards the Saudi govt., it was to get "the infidel" out of Muslim lands in the Middle East and strike as big a blow to the heart of our society as they could to weaken us. So while it's good that young people in that area of the world seem to be "getting it" a little more, this is evident on many fronts, it does not mean that Muslim extremists are yesterday's news. They are very much still in, and according to terror experts, all those groups as a whole are probably more dangerous and numerous than they were 10 years ago.
To get "the infidel" out of middle east or just out of Saudi-Arabia? If latter then they succeeded, there hasn't been US troops in Saudi-Arabia for years anymore, only some trainers and advisors. They are in Kuwait, Bahrain, Iraq etc.

JOL

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05-06-2011, 10:38 AM
  #141
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Al Qaeda hasn't been minimalized or contained. Again, listen to the CIA director, he knows more about the pulse of the situation than practically anybody. And as other experts have said, distant cells and factions that broke off from Al Qaeda have become independent and in most cases are more dangerous than Al Qaeda now. And even if Al Qaeda is destroyed, they started an ideology that is going to keep on recruiting new members for generations, that will probably outlive Al Qaeda itself, an expert said. I'm 30, my granchildren will still be fighting the same fight. Even a guy who lost his son in the World Trade center said that he was disappointed when he saw videos of people dancing in the streets, he said the fight is far from over. Look at quotes from terror experts as well, they say the same thing.

Also, Al Qaeda's primary goal was not as a political backlash towards the Saudi govt., it was to get "the infidel" out of Muslim lands in the Middle East and strike as big a blow to the heart of our society as they could to weaken us. So while it's good that young people in that area of the world seem to be "getting it" a little more, this is evident on many fronts, it does not mean that Muslim extremists are yesterday's news. They are very much still in, and according to terror experts, all those groups as a whole are probably more dangerous and numerous than they were 10 years ago.
Thas not how Al qaeda began, which is what I was referring to. Bin Laden was expelled from Saudi Arabia in 1991 due to his anti-government activities. He takes refuge in Sudan. Eventually, Saudi Arabia revokes his citizenship, and his family disowns him as well. He hated the Saudi regime, and was particularly offended when American boots were allowed on the ground to protect Saudi Arabia during the 1991 kuwait war.
http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/peop.../timeline.html

And yes the brand AlQaeda has taken a huge one two blow this year, between the Arab spring and the death of their leader. You cannot ignore this...


Less important than the leadership issue will be the movement's attempts to restore its "brand" by launching new attacks. But these days, a bomb blast in a police recruiting center in Iraq or in a cafe in Morocco, even if executed by a local cell loyal to the al-Qaeda idea, no longer evokes the spectacle of a single terrorist leadership with global reach orchestrating a multi-front war against the "far enemy." The loss of the brand's icon further weakens its power, and no successor could hope to come close to emulating bin-Laden's mythical power -- perhaps, in part, because of the extent to which that power was mythologized by the "war on terror" of which he was the enemy's face. The Fourth International was marginal even before Trotsky was killed by Stalin; after his death it scarcely garnered any attention at all, and was riddled with the sorts of doctrinal splits that the Monty Python team loved to parody. Unlike the harmless if fervent Fourth International, of course, Al-Qaeda is a vicious gang of thugs that has killed thousands of people. But even if its supporters manage occasionally to add to its body count, history has condemned it to go the way of the Fourth International.

http://globalspin.blogs.time.com/201...urvive/?hpt=T1

and there's this more dramatic quote:
The pro-democracy uprisings across the Arab world suggest to many that al-Qaida's clenched-fist ideology has little place for a new generation seeking Western-style political reforms and freedoms — even though al-Qaida offshoots still hold ground in places such as Yemen and Pakistan.
"Bin Laden died in Egypt before he was killed in Pakistan," said Abdulkhaleq Abdullah, a professor of political science at Emirates University. "The young people who successfully challenged the status quo with peaceful means proved change the bin Laden way — the violent way, the jihad way — did not come."


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42920340..._of_bin_laden/

You are right, the fight against extremists will never be over. The brand will just morph, there will always be hate, there will always be evil. But it appears, and it is my hope, that AlQaeda has gone the way of the members only jacket.


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05-07-2011, 07:55 AM
  #142
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To get "the infidel" out of middle east or just out of Saudi-Arabia? If latter then they succeeded, there hasn't been US troops in Saudi-Arabia for years anymore, only some trainers and advisors. They are in Kuwait, Bahrain, Iraq etc.

JOL
All Muslim lands in the Middle East. They must have been crafty with their words though because they were very successful in recruiting from Indonesia as well.

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05-07-2011, 08:21 AM
  #143
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Thas not how Al qaeda began, which is what I was referring to. Bin Laden was expelled from Saudi Arabia in 1991 due to his anti-government activities. He takes refuge in Sudan. Eventually, Saudi Arabia revokes his citizenship, and his family disowns him as well. He hated the Saudi regime, and was particularly offended when American boots were allowed on the ground to protect Saudi Arabia during the 1991 kuwait war.
http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/peop.../timeline.html
Well, when Bin Laden started Al Qaeda(or more accurately, rekindled Al Qaeda from his Afghan War days) he proclaimed that it was a way for young Saudi men to take their lives in their own hands amidst an environment with little opportunity for economic or political advancement. But that was just what he said to get recruits, his real mission all along was jihad against the U.S. and it's allies, not as a way to somehow get back at the Saudi government. I mean think about it, yes he was thrown out of Saudi Arabia but what was the reason for that? Because he spoke out against the government for the blasphemy of letting U.S. troops on Saudi soil.

Quote:
And yes the brand AlQaeda has taken a huge one two blow this year, between the Arab spring and the death of their leader. You cannot ignore this...


Less important than the leadership issue will be the movement's attempts to restore its "brand" by launching new attacks. But these days, a bomb blast in a police recruiting center in Iraq or in a cafe in Morocco, even if executed by a local cell loyal to the al-Qaeda idea, no longer evokes the spectacle of a single terrorist leadership with global reach orchestrating a multi-front war against the "far enemy." The loss of the brand's icon further weakens its power, and no successor could hope to come close to emulating bin-Laden's mythical power -- perhaps, in part, because of the extent to which that power was mythologized by the "war on terror" of which he was the enemy's face. The Fourth International was marginal even before Trotsky was killed by Stalin; after his death it scarcely garnered any attention at all, and was riddled with the sorts of doctrinal splits that the Monty Python team loved to parody. Unlike the harmless if fervent Fourth International, of course, Al-Qaeda is a vicious gang of thugs that has killed thousands of people. But even if its supporters manage occasionally to add to its body count, history has condemned it to go the way of the Fourth International.

http://globalspin.blogs.time.com/201...urvive/?hpt=T1

I never denied that Al Qaeda took a huge blow, especially with the intelligence bonanza recently discovered, but obviously they are far from dead as per terror experts.

Quote:
and there's this more dramatic quote:
The pro-democracy uprisings across the Arab world suggest to many that al-Qaida's clenched-fist ideology has little place for a new generation seeking Western-style political reforms and freedoms — even though al-Qaida offshoots still hold ground in places such as Yemen and Pakistan.
"Bin Laden died in Egypt before he was killed in Pakistan," said Abdulkhaleq Abdullah, a professor of political science at Emirates University. "The young people who successfully challenged the status quo with peaceful means proved change the bin Laden way — the violent way, the jihad way — did not come."


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42920340..._of_bin_laden/

You are right, the fight against extremists will never be over. The brand will just morph, there will always be hate, there will always be evil. But it appears, and it is my hope, that AlQaeda has gone the way of the members only jacket.
Well yeah, Arab Spring and such does nothing to deter the extremists, I mean hopefully over time it does gradually deter more and more would-be extremists, but as of right now our enemy is more dangerous than it was a decade ago. That's fact and Arab Spring isn't going to change that overnight. What Arab Spring shows is that the rest of the world in that region, the non-extremists, are "getting it" more and more and basically instead of being on the fence about the U.S. and the West are clearly on one side.


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05-07-2011, 09:37 AM
  #144
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Well yeah, Arab Spring and such does nothing to deter the extremists, I mean hopefully over time it does gradually deter more and more would-be extremists, but as of right now our enemy is more dangerous than it was a decade ago. That's fact and Arab Spring isn't going to change that overnight. What Arab Spring shows is that the rest of the world in that region, the non-extremists, are "getting it" more and more and basically instead of being on the fence about the U.S. and the West are clearly on one side.
Very well said, and a very good discussion.

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05-07-2011, 08:49 PM
  #145
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For all of the parents here:

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...161.1455810923

Read the pages in the album. I'm pre-ordering one for the next baby shower I have to go to. LOL

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05-16-2011, 07:53 PM
  #146
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My husband and I were on the local news this weekend AND again this morning during the morning broadcast.

http://www.winknews.com/Local-Florid...es-opens-doors

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05-17-2011, 10:48 PM
  #147
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Was rolling down the Dolphin Expressway earlier this morning and had a chance to see the new Marlins stadium. Good stuff. No tolls either.

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05-18-2011, 03:14 AM
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ixcuincle View Post
Was rolling down the Dolphin Expressway earlier this morning and had a chance to see the new Marlins stadium. Good stuff. No tolls either.











Looks real nice inside too. The one thing that scares me is this huge Marlin-type art piece that is going to rise every time a Marlin player hits a HR. I saw a visual and video of it, and its quite ugly!

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06-01-2011, 04:09 PM
  #149
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Absolutely live the new version of the site for the iPhone. It's much better than before!

The only thing I would suggest, and hope one of our mods get the idea to whoever needs to hear it, is that a forum jump is added to it. I can't access the other sports forums from the main page, and the only way to do that now is by going to the desktop version.


Last edited by pb1300: 06-01-2011 at 04:15 PM.
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06-01-2011, 04:13 PM
  #150
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Absolutely live the new version of the site for the iPhone. It's much better than before!
Agreed. Well done.

How's your service in Greece?

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