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Puck Never Seems To Stop In Philly

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Old
05-04-2011, 12:14 PM
  #1
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Puck Never Seems To Stop In Philly

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Not being a daily reader of the Philadelphia newspapers at such times as the NHL draft, the opening of free agency and the trade deadline, it’s hard to say whether a headline ever appears that reads:

“Hello in there, Flyers. Anybody home?”

Or, alternatively:

“Wakey, wakey, Holmgren. Get a goalie!”

It is one of sport’s enduring conundrums that an organization with great tradition, and otherwise solid ownership and management, one that builds contending teams with pleasing regularity, can have a blind spot as enormous as the one that’s been shared by owner Ed Snider and all of his general managers dating back more than two decades.

The Flyers are always the last to know — after it’s too late — that they have lousy goaltending.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/sport...564/story.html

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Old
05-04-2011, 12:20 PM
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Maybe someone should tell the writer to inform the Habs that they aren't going to win anything with a bunch of Smurfs on their team.

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05-04-2011, 12:23 PM
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Well, it's the truth.

I can't disagree with anything written in that article.

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05-04-2011, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BWAVgal View Post
Maybe someone should tell the writer to inform the Habs that they aren't going to win anything with a bunch of Smurfs on their team.
Doesn't change the fact that he's right about the goaltending situation.

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05-04-2011, 12:26 PM
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sadly its the truth.

less depth and solid goaltender>>>>>>>>>>>>>stacked team and crap goaltending.

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05-04-2011, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
sadly its the truth.

less depth and solid goaltender>>>>>>>>>>>>>stacked team and crap goaltending.
Not so, sayeth resident expert, Chris Shafer.

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05-04-2011, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Not so, sayeth resident expert, Chris Shafer.
Shafer prefers our situation? Hard to believe.

Chris....get in here and explain yourself.

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05-04-2011, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
sadly its the truth.

less depth and solid goaltender>>>>>>>>>>>>>stacked team and crap goaltending.
We didn't even need to have less depth to get a solid goaltender. Dwayne Roloson would have been money for us.

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05-04-2011, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by ShotScore View Post
Shafer prefers our situation? Hard to believe.

Chris....get in here and explain yourself.
Any one skater is more important than a goalie according to Chris.

The argument is beyond idiotic.

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05-04-2011, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Any one skater is more important than a goalie according to Chris.

The argument is beyond idiotic.
Jester,

in all seriousness...

I hope you're ****ing with me.

I find it impossible to believe a guy who's as on the ball as Chris is in hockey matters actually thinks that.

Please tell me you're ****ing with me.

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05-04-2011, 12:48 PM
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I'd take depth over superstar, expensive goaltending, but it just doesn't work if you have a crapshoot in net. A reliable starting goalie is needed, not a career backup. This organization showed last summer that they believe Michael Leighton is a reliable goalie...that doesn't fill me with faith in their abilities to resolve this situation.

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05-04-2011, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Any one skater is more important than a goalie according to Chris.

The argument is beyond idiotic.
That's not the argument.

Depth > goaltending.

Carter > 5m "elite" goalie.

Meszaros > 4m strong goalie.

3m strong goalie > Versteeg.

Never have I said that I was comfortable with either Leighton or Boucher in the postseason. I said we'd be fine in the regular season, but I wasn't sure what would happen in the playoffs though traditionally teams that rely on goaltending falter before reaching the Finals. We're a team that obviously doesn't rely on goaltending.

I also wanted Roloson.

I also hate Leighton, though I did say Boucher was the better alternative.

If you're going to put words in my mouth, you might as well get the argument right. You're smart enough to not have to pretend to be this oblivious.

We've always needed average to slightly above average goaltending. You don't need to spend 4-5m on that. It's a waste of cap space and assets to blow depth on overrated options.

Goaltending, as always, is extremely overrated, but still extremely necessary to putting together a championship capable roster.

EDIT:

On another note, the article is extremely ignorant. In his opening paragraph alone he seems to represent this apparent intrinsically "Philadelphian" desire to ignore the position in the "draft", "free agency", and at the "trade deadline." I'm fairly certain Holmgren has drafted his fair share of goalies, and the fact that he has not attacked goaltending early in the draft means pretty much nothing seeing as how uninterested many of his peers are in taking goalies early and often. As far as free agency is concerned, Homer went after both Turco and Nabby before settling on Leighton (ugh). I would have still pursued other options, but if Holmgren panicked and went with his gut, that was his decision. It does not mean that he was unwilling to seek other opportunities at the position. Even going with Bobrovsky showed that Holmgren was on the board looking for goaltending both at the prospect level and at the free agent level. The trade deadline is another issue entirely. Weren't we pretty solidly in first place at the trade deadline with a healthy team, Bobrovsky playing like a ROY, and Boucher playing as well as he has at any point in Philly? While I still question the move not to get Roloson (and that is a move I wanted to make), I understand why Holmgren didn't pursue harder. In the end, the lack of that move is pretty inexcusable, but I can see where he was coming from if hindsight is taken out of the equation.

Those are the problems in just the first paragraph of that "article." I'll spare you the critique of the rest.


Last edited by CS: 05-04-2011 at 01:01 PM.
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Old
05-04-2011, 12:54 PM
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Why can't we build a team like Vancouver and have an elite goalie with all kinds of depth?

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05-04-2011, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BWAVgal View Post
Maybe someone should tell the writer to inform the Habs that they aren't going to win anything with a bunch of Smurfs on their team.
I doubt the writer, Cam Cole, would care, as he writes for the Vancouver Sun / Postmedia News. The column was a pick-up by the Gazette. Of course, his constituency backs a team that pays Roberto Luongo a king's ransom and named him captain last season, so the goaltender issue may be inflated that much more.

But I agree with Cole all the same. And it's not like this was a mystery. Last season was the goalie injury carousel, with Leighton acting the role of Band-Aid® / lucky rabbit's foot until it was too late. I love the comment on the main board by one poor myopic soul who claimed that Leighton was stealing games for the Flyers left and right in last season's playoffs.

I am convinced that Holmgren was terrorized as a child by a goaltender, and intentionally avoids as much as he can about the position.

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05-04-2011, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShotScore View Post
Why can't we build a team like Vancouver and have an elite goalie with all kinds of depth?
They did that because Luongo is signed through 2022 with a cap hit of 5.5 mil. That's a terrible contract for a goaltender, and has tons of potential to go very wrong.

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05-04-2011, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I'd take depth over superstar, expensive goaltending, but it just doesn't work if you have a crapshoot in net. A reliable starting goalie is needed, not a career backup. This organization showed last summer that they believe Michael Leighton is a reliable goalie...that doesn't fill me with faith in their abilities to resolve this situation.
I'd love to have a transcript of Paul Holmgren's various phone conversations in the 30 days around last July 1, and exactly how he approached offers to Turco and Nabokov, among others. Who blocked the process?

And, just to demoralize myself further, what would it have meant had Holmgren talked Biron's agent down to a more reasonable contract? I know, Biron and his agent made their bed, but there was (and still is) a reliable goaltender capable of stealing games who, in this present market, is extremely reasonable.

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05-04-2011, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
That's not the argument.

Depth > goaltending.

Carter > 5m "elite" goalie.

Meszaros > 4m strong goalie.

3m strong goalie > Versteeg.

Never have I said that I was comfortable with either Leighton or Boucher in the postseason. I said we'd be fine in the regular season, but I wasn't sure what would happen in the playoffs though traditionally teams that rely on goaltending falter before reaching the Finals. We're a team that obviously doesn't rely on goaltending.

I also wanted Roloson.

I also hate Leighton, though I did say Boucher was the better alternative.

If you're going to put words in my mouth, you might as well get the argument right. You're smart enough to not have to pretend to be this oblivious.

We've always needed average to slightly above average goaltending. You don't need to spend 4-5m on that. It's a waste of cap space and assets to blow depth on overrated options.

Goaltending, as always, is extremely overrated, but still extremely necessary to putting together a championship capable roster.
Quoting you, last week:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Actually, as much as I'd love to throw a legitimate number one goalie on the Flyers, I'd want a legitimate number one goalie behind THIS Flyers' team, not this team minus Carter.

It defeats the purpose if you significantly weaken the roster in order to add a goalie.

Once again, the impact of a skater on the game, particularly one as important as Carter, is immense compared to any goaltender regardless of talent.
It's the "regardless talent" part that is particularly fantastic to read. JVR was a monster the other night, and the Flyers lost because of the other team's goalie. We should also take notice of the "once again," because this is a mantra you've been parading for a long *ing time.

I mean, it is what it is. Last year you defended the Leighton fiasco right up until the moment when you suddenly stopped defending the Leighton fiasco.

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05-04-2011, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShotScore View Post
Jester,

in all seriousness...

I hope you're ****ing with me.

I find it impossible to believe a guy who's as on the ball as Chris is in hockey matters actually thinks that.

Please tell me you're ****ing with me.
hes not. he thinks goaltending is overrated.
true story.

Now while I dont think you need elite goaltending to win a Cup, you need goalies that arent going to give up kick you in the balls, deflating goals at least once a game.

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05-04-2011, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by BernieParent View Post
I doubt the writer, Cam Cole, would care, as he writes for the Vancouver Sun / Postmedia News. The column was a pick-up by the Gazette. Of course, his constituency backs a team that pays Roberto Luongo a king's ransom and named him captain last season, so the goaltender issue may be inflated that much more.

But I agree with Cole all the same. And it's not like this was a mystery. Last season was the goalie injury carousel, with Leighton acting the role of Band-Aid® / lucky rabbit's foot until it was too late. I love the comment on the main board by one poor myopic soul who claimed that Leighton was stealing games for the Flyers left and right in last season's playoffs.

I am convinced that Holmgren was terrorized as a child by a goaltender, and intentionally avoids as much as he can about the position.
Holmgren knows it exists, and he's openly tried to fix the position.

However, he seems unwilling to force change at the cost of the roster he's put together, and I completely agree with that. He tried Nabby. He tried Turco. Nothing stuck so he went with Leighton. While I would've sliced off my hand before inking that contract with my signature, he felt it was a better/safer/more locker-room friendly option than the rest of the trash heap last summer. Trading was obviously not an option because Holmgren didn't want to overpay. I completely agree with that thinking, but I wanted ANYONE other than Leighton.

As far as his miss of not getting Roloson, as soon as I saw he was traded to Tampa I would've loved to personally call Holmgren and shout obscenities for about an hour.

You don't pass up on that kind of opportunity just because you're "okay" with what we have.

Still, some of you clearly misinterpret the situation, as does just about everyone looking to make a quick dime off a meaningless overplayed playoff story used to build some added suspense or drama...perhaps even to give excuses as to why this roster is just not playing up to the level that it should be or even did at the offset of this season.

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05-04-2011, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Quoting you, last week:

It's the "regardless talent" part that is particularly fantastic to read. JVR was a monster the other night, and the Flyers lost because of the other team's goalie. We should also take notice of the "once again," because this is a mantra you've been parading for a long *ing time.

I mean, it is what it is. Last year you defended the Leighton fiasco right up until the moment when you suddenly stopped defending the Leighton fiasco.
Carter is more important than a goalie, regardless of that goalie's talent. There are other players on our roster who certainly don't fit that bill.

Also, I never defended Leighton. I hate Leighton. I understand why Holmgren did it. That doesn't mean I agree with it.

I really don't feel like playing your games today so can you spare me your useless tirades and skip right to the point? You think I'm wrong. What else is new? There. We're done, so can you stop being so annoying.

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05-04-2011, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Carter is more important than a goalie, regardless of that goalie's talent. There are other players on our roster who certainly don't fit that bill.

Also, I never defended Leighton. I hate Leighton. I understand why Holmgren did it. That doesn't mean I agree with it.

I really don't feel like playing your games today so can you spare me your useless tirades and skip right to the point? You think I'm wrong. What else is new? There. We're done, so can you stop being so annoying.
Dude, you have an English degree.. pay attention to the argument you made.

Quote:
Once again, the impact of a skater on the game, particularly one as important as Carter, is immense compared to any goaltender regardless of talent.
You just accused me of "putting words in your mouth." I did not. That is a non-specific statement about a "skater" and you have a subordinate attachment (to the discussion at hand) of Carter within that overarching argument. If you want to back away from that, go right ahead... but don't accuse people of putting words in your mouth when that is specifically what you wrote.

And you absolutely defended the Leighton stupidity last spring... because, goalies don't matter.

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05-04-2011, 01:14 PM
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I said it before and I will say it again, I am not convinced at all that Holmgren will make goaltending a priority this offseason. He will say he will, but when it comes right down to it he will blame the injures on not getting to the level where we want to be.
Unless Vocoun or Bryzgalov take less then 2 million nothing will change. if we dont resign Boucher he will sign someone like Joey MacDonald for 800k

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05-04-2011, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Quoting you, last week:



It's the "regardless talent" part that is particularly fantastic to read. JVR was a monster the other night, and the Flyers lost because of the other team's goalie. We should also take notice of the "once again," because this is a mantra you've been parading for a long *ing time.

I mean, it is what it is. Last year you defended the Leighton fiasco right up until the moment when you suddenly stopped defending the Leighton fiasco.


Wow!

My mind is officially blown.

Don't know how anyone can think that.

Here's the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth....


The Hockey Goaltender is the most important position IN ALL OF SPORTS.

Yes, you read that correctly. In ALL OF SPORTS.

Now, I do realize that most pseudo-intellectual sports nitwits in this country will tell you the most important position in sports is the NFL quarterback.

Here's why that's not true.

The NFL QB needs help.

He needs his center to give him a correct snap of the ball.

He needs his offensive line to give him time to set up the play.

Once the play is started, he needs his skill players to correctly run the play.

Assuming the play is run correctly, he needs his receivers to catch the passed ball.

Here's the difference......

The Hockey Goaltender needs no one.

He is on his own completely.

If his defense completely breaks down in front him, he can still make a game-saving save.

He controls the game completely.

He also affects the opposition in a way no other position does.

If he makes a save or two that he has no business on earth making, he can get in the opposition's head, and not just for the game, but for the entire series.

No other position exists where one person controls everything.

Except one.

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05-04-2011, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Also, I never defended Leighton. I hate Leighton. I understand why Holmgren did it. That doesn't mean I agree with it.

.
You understand why Holmgren overpaid for Leighton BEFORE free agency started? Did Holmgren get drunk? stoned? there was no logical reason behind it. He could of waited and seen how things shook out. But no, instead he panicked and like Randy Jones picked a random number out of the sky because the man has no clue at all how to negotiate contracts in free agency.

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05-04-2011, 01:20 PM
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QB is more important because it is, literally, the brain of the offense... if your QB is not physically capable to play the position, and intellectually smart enough to decipher and adjust to defenses you're sunk. So, QB is tremendously demanding and important on two fronts.

Goalie is just behind there.

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