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Old
05-04-2011, 01:26 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
Just to add to that Tom Brady was far from elite when he won his first SB. they scored 3 offensive Tds in 3 playoff games and one of those came when Bledsoe was in the game against Pittsburgh in the AFC title game.
You cant really compare football to hockey tho, a defense can carry you far. See Baltimore,Pittsburgh and New England.
He certainly wasn't then what he is now, but he doesn't actually have a single season where you could label him below average.

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...B/BradTo00.htm

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05-04-2011, 01:33 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I actually forgot he won it before the 90's. I wasn't alive to witness it either.

I remember Roy as a monster during the DPE. That's what I witnessed. Forgive me for judging him based on what my eyes saw.

Incredible goalie? Yes. Arguably the best ever? Yes. Benefited from good teams and had the numbers latter in his career boasted by the DPE? Yes.
...you didn't watch the 70s either, but you were judging that era too. There have always been goalie superstars, and they won some Cups.

Hasek was prior to the DPE, as well. Won his first Vezina in '93-'94.

Belfour won his first Vezina in '90-91 (and was *ing amazing at times on those Hawks teams)... and allowed Hasek to be dealt.

Goalie stats improved during the DPE for a variety of reasons, ranging from defensive changes, to both the size of goalie pads and goalie themselves. On top of that, the athleticism of the goalies has improved immensely.

To suggest, however, that there were no goalie superstars between the early 80s and the DPE is completely wrong.

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05-04-2011, 01:36 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I rate 'em based on their statistical output against other QBs. Taking a 1:1 use of stats is largely a waste of time, because the sport itself has changed considerably over the year. QBs throw the ball A LOT MORE than they used to. So, QBs are actually far more important today than they were back when Namath played... he's still in the HoF, btw.

Brad Johnson was a good QB... to suggest otherwise is unfair to the man. He was a very accurate QB, and didn't make mistakes that cost his team. The year the Bucs won the SB, he had a 62.9% completion rate, and a 22/6 split on TD/INT.

Simms... another good QB, it's really absurd you're getting on him. Simms' TD and INT% are both above average for his career.
I'm not getting on Simms bro. He was an average QB.

I saw his whole career. Do you know how many times Parcells pulled him aside and scolded him? More times than I can count.

Remember a couple of things about Simms.....

He had a truly great head coach who knew how to control a game. And he had a superior defense which carried the giants many times when their offense struggled.

In fact, when Simms was injured and missed the Super Bowl against Buffalo they replaced him with Jeff Hostetler and their offense didn't miss a beat. They actually replaced Simms with Hostetler as their starter the following year until Hostetler got hurt.

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05-04-2011, 01:42 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by ShotScore View Post
I'm not getting on Simms bro. He was an average QB.

I saw his whole career. Do you know how many times Parcells pulled him aside and scolded him? More times than I can count.

Remember a couple of things about Simms.....

He had a truly great head coach who knew how to control a game. And he had a superior defense which carried the giants many times when their offense struggled.

In fact, when Simms was injured and missed the Super Bowl against Buffalo they replaced him with Jeff Hostetler and their offense didn't miss a beat. They actually replaced Simms with Hostetler as their starter the following year until Hostetler got hurt.
None of that changes the fact that Simms was a noticeably above average QB in his production.

Hostetler wasn't a terrible QB, either... and Simms was 36/37 y.o when Hostetler stepped in for him, absolutely on the downside of his career. He had a grand total of 26 NFL games (including playoffs) left in him when he was injured in 1990.

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05-04-2011, 01:47 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
None of that changes the fact that Simms was a noticeably above average QB in his production.

Hostetler wasn't a terrible QB, either... and Simms was 36/37 y.o when Hostetler stepped in for him, absolutely on the downside of his career. He had a grand total of 26 NFL games (including playoffs) left in him when he was injured in 1990.
But he wasn't. This is what I'm trying to tell you.

The giants ran the ball on every play and only threw when necessary.

That's how they won the Super Bowl twice.

He wasn't some kind of superior QB that defenses were terrified of or that a team had to game-plan against like you have to do with Brady and Manning.

Statistically, he was good. But the stats don't come close to telling his whole story.

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05-04-2011, 01:50 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by ShotScore View Post
But he wasn't. This is what I'm trying to tell you.

The giants ran the ball on every play and only threw when necessary.

That's how they won the Super Bowl twice.

He wasn't some kind of superior QB that defenses were terrified of or that a team had to game-plan against like you have to do with Brady and Manning.

Statistically, he was good. But the stats don't come close to telling his whole story.
Yet, somehow, he's just outside the top 20 QBs all time in yards? Don't add up dude.

And their first SB... who was the MVP of that game? Giants certainly ran the ball a lot, that doesn't mean the QB wasn't above average. Just means they ran the ball a lot (which has a ton of strategic advantages)... You're making it out like Simms was Trent Dilfer, he really wasn't.

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...D/DilfTr00.htm

Dilfer WAS an average to below average QB.

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05-04-2011, 02:01 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
...you didn't watch the 70s either, but you were judging that era too. There have always been goalie superstars, and they won some Cups.

Hasek was prior to the DPE, as well. Won his first Vezina in '93-'94.

Belfour won his first Vezina in '90-91 (and was *ing amazing at times on those Hawks teams)... and allowed Hasek to be dealt.

Goalie stats improved during the DPE for a variety of reasons, ranging from defensive changes, to both the size of goalie pads and goalie themselves. On top of that, the athleticism of the goalies has improved immensely.

To suggest, however, that there were no goalie superstars between the early 80s and the DPE is completely wrong.


Shafer's mindset regarding goaltending is possibly one of the most ill-conceived arguments I've experienced on these boards...and there are some horribly ill-conceived arguments on here.

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05-04-2011, 02:02 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Yet, somehow, he's just outside the top 20 QBs all time in yards? Don't add up dude.

And their first SB... who was the MVP of that game? Giants certainly ran the ball a lot, that doesn't mean the QB wasn't above average. Just means they ran the ball a lot (which has a ton of strategic advantages)... You're making it out like Simms was Trent Dilfer, he really wasn't.
Well, a couple of things first.

He played 14 seasons.

He attempted 4647 passes. To give you an idea of how much the giants ran the ball as opposed to passing with Simms.....

In 12 seasons Donovan McNabb has attempted 5218 passes.

In 13 seasons, Peyton manning has attempted 7210 passes.

In 11 seasons, Tom Brady has attempted 4710 passes.

In 10 seasons, Drew Brees has attempted 4822 passes.

In 12 seasons, Troy Aikman, who had Emmitt Smith, attempted 4715 passes.

In only 7 seasons, Carson Palmer already has 3217 passes attempted.

In 11 seasons, Jim Kelly had 4779 passes attempted.

I could go on but I'm sure you get the point.


Last edited by ShotScore*: 05-04-2011 at 02:10 PM.
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05-04-2011, 02:28 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShotScore View Post
Well, a couple of things first.

He played 14 seasons.

He attempted 4647 passes. To give you an idea of how much the giants ran the ball as opposed to passing with Simms.....

In 12 seasons Donovan McNabb has attempted 5218 passes.

In 13 seasons, Peyton manning has attempted 7210 passes.

In 11 seasons, Tom Brady has attempted 4710 passes.

In 10 seasons, Drew Brees has attempted 4822 passes.

In 12 seasons, Troy Aikman, who had Emmitt Smith, attempted 4715 passes.

In only 7 seasons, Carson Palmer already has 3217 passes attempted.

In 11 seasons, Jim Kelly had 4779 passes attempted.

I could go on but I'm sure you get the point.
It's probably the point he made about 20 posts ago, about not being able to compare eras because of how drastically the game changes.

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05-04-2011, 02:37 PM
  #60
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I think we can all agree that Phil Simms is not the answer to the goalie woes in Philadelphia. That is the topic of the thread, right?

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05-04-2011, 02:39 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
I think we can all agree that Phil Simms is not the answer to the goalie woes in Philadelphia. That is the topic of the thread, right?
In all fairness he's probably a safer option than Leighton...

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05-04-2011, 02:50 PM
  #62
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You guys arguing that goalie is more important than QB are nuts....

The Super Bowl equivalent of last years Michael Leighton-Antti Niemi SC matchup would be Kellen Clemens-John Skelton.

If goalie is as important as QB, then please explain to me why most of the best goalies of the last decade have never even made the Cup Finals. If goalie was as important, we would have Miller, Lundqvist, Luongo etc. in half the SC finals, as we do with Manning, Brady, Roethlisberger etc.

In my opinion goalies are more close to running backs. Sure it helps to have a Peterson/Tomlinson in their prime, but with the right system you can just as well plug in a 7th round nobody and be just fine.

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05-04-2011, 02:58 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by PhillyPhinn View Post
You guys arguing that goalie is more important than QB are nuts....

The Super Bowl equivalent of last years Michael Leighton-Antti Niemi SC matchup would be Kellen Clemens-John Skelton.

If goalie is as important as QB, then please explain to me why most of the best goalies of the last decade have never even made the Cup Finals. If goalie was as important, we would have Miller, Lundqvist, Luongo etc. in half the SC finals, as we do with Manning, Brady, Roethlisberger etc.

In my opinion goalies are more close to running backs. Sure it helps to have a Peterson/Tomlinson in their prime, but with the right system you can just as well plug in a 7th round nobody and be just fine.
If QB was simply a matter of athletic performance, you could probably have a conversation about it... but the position has matured into so much more than that. I think from a pure skill perspective, the positions are close... but the reality is that a smart QB with less athleticism will beat a dumb QB with off the charts athletics every time.

Michael Vick is about 100x the athlete when compared to a Tom Brady or Peyton Manning. They're both vastly superior QBs.

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05-04-2011, 03:09 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyPhinn View Post
You guys arguing that goalie is more important than QB are nuts....

The Super Bowl equivalent of last years Michael Leighton-Antti Niemi SC matchup would be Kellen Clemens-John Skelton.

If goalie is as important as QB, then please explain to me why most of the best goalies of the last decade have never even made the Cup Finals. If goalie was as important, we would have Miller, Lundqvist, Luongo etc. in half the SC finals, as we do with Manning, Brady, Roethlisberger etc.

In my opinion goalies are more close to running backs. Sure it helps to have a Peterson/Tomlinson in their prime, but with the right system you can just as well plug in a 7th round nobody and be just fine.
Skelton has yet to prove he can play in NFL ,, Niemi both last year and this year has shown he can play in NHL

Last years cup final was more equivalent to Rex Grossman v Eli Manning. Grossman = Leighton with E Manning = Niemi

Grossman blows and kills his teams ,,, E Manning only does that half the time the other have he looks great

As for the topic

The Flyers dont need a huge money goalie (5 mil +) but a guy in 3-4 mil range with talent and poise of someone like Roloson , Halak , Niemi would be guy. Guys who can steal a game or two and provide stable goaltending most of the rest of the time

It just seems odd that your GM would add Versteeg and his salary at such a high cost but doesn't seem to have any desire to upgrade your teams constant issue

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05-04-2011, 03:13 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Skelton has yet to prove he can play in NFL ,, Niemi both last year and this year has shown he can play in NHL

Last years cup final was more equivalent to Rex Grossman v Eli Manning. Grossman = Leighton with E Manning = Niemi

Grossman blows and kills his teams ,,, E Manning only does that half the time the other have he looks great

As for the topic

The Flyers dont need a huge money goalie (5 mil +) but a guy in 3-4 mil range with talent and poise of someone like Roloson , Halak , Niemi would be guy. Guys who can steal a game or two and provide stable goaltending most of the rest of the time

It just seems odd that your GM would add Versteeg and his salary at such a high cost but doesn't seem to have any desire to upgrade your teams constant issue
If they keep Versteeg and let Leino walk, then it all makes sense.

What is going to be interesting for GMs, is that while the cap will be tight this year... it's going to go up noticeably (or at least it should) after next year when the TV money has impact. At the same time, teams that play with their own "internal" cap should have more money to spend this year.

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05-04-2011, 03:13 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Skelton has yet to prove he can play in NFL ,, Niemi both last year and this year has shown he can play in NHL

Last years cup final was more equivalent to Rex Grossman v Eli Manning. Grossman = Leighton with E Manning = Niemi

Grossman blows and kills his teams ,,, E Manning only does that half the time the other have he looks great

As for the topic

The Flyers dont need a huge money goalie (5 mil +) but a guy in 3-4 mil range with talent and poise of someone like Roloson , Halak , Niemi would be guy. Guys who can steal a game or two and provide stable goaltending most of the rest of the time

It just seems odd that your GM would add Versteeg and his salary at such a high cost but doesn't seem to have any desire to upgrade your teams constant issue
If our management ever addressed the issue legitimately, it wouldn't be a constant issue anymore.

I really think it's like a personal challenge Holmgren has set himself to. He wants to see just how bad of a goalie he can get away with.

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05-04-2011, 03:24 PM
  #67
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Any one skater is more important than a goalie according to Chris.

The argument is beyond idiotic.
This is a popular belief by many on this forum.

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05-04-2011, 03:27 PM
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If QB was simply a matter of athletic performance, you could probably have a conversation about it... but the position has matured into so much more than that. I think from a pure skill perspective, the positions are close... but the reality is that a smart QB with less athleticism will beat a dumb QB with off the charts athletics every time.

Michael Vick is about 100x the athlete when compared to a Tom Brady or Peyton Manning. They're both vastly superior QBs.
The big difference is that confidence and a hot streak can propel the 200th best goalie in the world to not only be good enough to win a Cup, but to actually be the main factor to why the team won the cup. The same doesn't apply to QB's, and I'd argue there are about 30 QB's in the world who's "best" is good enough to win the SB, and about 5-10 who's "best" is good enough to be the main factor in a team winning the SB.

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05-04-2011, 03:29 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by PhillyPhinn View Post
The big difference is that confidence and a hot streak can propel the 200th best goalie in the world to not only be good enough to win a Cup, but to actually be the main factor to why the team won the cup. The same doesn't apply to QB's, and I'd argue there are about 30 QB's in the world who's "best" is good enough to win the SB, and about 5-10 who's "best" is good enough to be the main factor in a team winning the SB.
The 200th best goalie in the world has never won the Cup, I promise you this.

Niemi is probably the worst goalie to win it in recent memory, and he's a lot better than anyone will give him credit for.

That said, QB > goalie. It's hard to argue with that.

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05-04-2011, 03:30 PM
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And it is embarrassing that everyone else sees the extent of the goalie issues, Philly fans have seen the writing on the wall for the last twenty years, but yet the organization does not take it seriously enough.

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05-04-2011, 03:42 PM
  #71
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The 200th best goalie in the world has never won the Cup, I promise you this.
No, but if you look at international tournaments, it's not uncommon for "200th best goalies in the world" to get insanely hot for several games and shut out teams consisting of top level NHL'ers.

I can guarantee you that if we put any Finnish Elite League starting or backup goalie in the NHL for 80 games, every one of them would have at least a few games where they were the main reason the team won that night. I can also guarantee you that if we put a backup QB from the CFL in the NFL, they may one or two wins depending on the team they are on, but not one of them would ever play even close to the level of an actual NFL QB, nevermind an elite QB, and not one of them would ever be "the reason" the team won.


The difference between the best goalie in the world and the 200th best goalie in the world, is about the same as between the best QB in the world and the 20th best QB in the world.

That's why I think "getting great goalie play" is important to winning in hockey, but "having an elite goaltender" is not. That's also why I think goalies are like running backs, where having Adrian Peterson or Ladainian Tomlinson in their prime doesn't correlate with winning championships, just like having Luongos, Millers and Lundqvists doesnt in hockey.

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05-04-2011, 03:43 PM
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Goaltending is kind of like the point guard position in basketball, absolutely critical and the team that wins generally gets great play at the position but the correlation between star power/salary and success just isn't there.

Look at recent cup winners, Chicago wins with a virtual unknown in his first season. Pittsburgh wins with a blue chip guy in Fleury and I guess we could put Ward/Carolina in that same sentence but those guys were not top 5 goalies or anything. Detroit wins with a cardboard cutout of Terry Sawchuk between the pipes and nearly repeats with it. Anaheim had a good playoff performer but I'd say Giggy was more Roloson than Roy, he also came within an inch of doing it another time with a pretty ragtag team in front of him.

You need a goalie who is reliable shot in and shot out and has some game-stealing potential, not a marquee name. If you look at the ten highest paid goalies in 2009-2010, they had exactly zero cups between them.

As far as Chris, well I don't see any inconsistency in his position although I don't agree with it entirely. I probably would take a 40-goal scorer over just about any of the really big-ticket goalies in the league but not in every single situation.

Besides that, we're not talking about picking between Pronger and Lundqvist here, we are talking about re-signing Leighton versus pursuing a guy like Roloson, which is a much lighter decision that is also easy to make.

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05-04-2011, 03:44 PM
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QB is not greater than Goaltender.

Goaltender is far greater.

The NFL QB needs a lot of help to be successful.

The Hockey Goalie potentially needs none.

The NFL QB can be shut down by the opposition's defense.

The Hockey Goalie can shut down the opposition by himself.

The NFL QB must rely on others to make plays.

The Hockey Goalie can make game-saving plays himself and needs no one else's help.

The NFL QB can win a game.

The Hockey Goalie can win a series.

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05-04-2011, 03:53 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShotScore View Post
QB is not greater than Goaltender.

Goaltender is far greater.

The NFL QB needs a lot of help to be successful.

The Hockey Goalie potentially needs none.

The NFL QB can be shut down by the opposition's defense.

The Hockey Goalie can shut down the opposition by himself.

The NFL QB must rely on others to make plays.

The Hockey Goalie can make game-saving plays himself and needs no one else's help.

The NFL QB can win a game.

The Hockey Goalie can win a series.
This.

Is.

Not.

A.

Convincing.

Argument.

Sorry.

NFL.

Is.

A.

QB.

Driven.

League.

For.

A.

Reason.

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05-04-2011, 03:53 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShotScore View Post
QB is not greater than Goaltender.

Goaltender is far greater.

The NFL QB needs a lot of help to be successful.

The Hockey Goalie potentially needs none.

The NFL QB can be shut down by the opposition's defense.

The Hockey Goalie can shut down the opposition by himself.

The NFL QB must rely on others to make plays.

The Hockey Goalie can make game-saving plays himself and needs no one else's help.

The NFL QB can win a game.

The Hockey Goalie can win a series.
Show me one goalie that can win a game with his team not scoring a goal?

Now explain how a goalie potentially doesn't need ANY help...

Sorry but if a goalie has 5 skaters at the nacho stand instead of playing defense he is ****ed.

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