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Flyers notes: Holmgren dubs Bruins the better team (& the Value of Goaltending?)

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Old
05-07-2011, 01:11 AM
  #1
FreshPerspective
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Flyers notes: Holmgren dubs Bruins the better team (& the Value of Goaltending?)

I know this is being said right after a series and people say you shouldn't take it at face value but I am in total disagreement with his comments basically pinning this mostly on the D for not stepping it up. Actually...I'm quite irritated bordering on angry.

While the D was a joke he seems to be using it as a crutch and absolving the goaltending. Clearly he's covering up the fact that his stacked D and avg/good goaltending strategy just failed and he doesn't want to admit it..at least not in public. Let's see how he "acts" in the offseason and whether he really is in denial as his "words" seem to suggest...

Also his own players admitted to being outworked but he also says that is not the case. Seriously Paul..Boston was a better team for a reason...it didn't happen out of a vacuum...

Quote:
He did say that he felt his defense sagged without Chris Pronger when it needed to raise its head collectively.

“Injuries happen…Our defense as a group, I didn’t think raised their game enough to beat Boston in this series,” Holmgren said.

“Would we have liked to have Chris? Yeah. But other guys, four of those guys have a lot of playoff experience and they didn’t play the way we needed to play.”

While Sergei Bobrovsky played well in Game 4 to keep the Flyers in it for most of three periods, the goaltending overall failed in the playoffs. Holmgren, however, doesn’t see it that way.

“I don’t think we can fault our goaltending at any point in the series,” he said. “I know it looks bad when you pull a guy all the time but goaltending, as I said before, is a function of your team.”

http://www.csnphilly.com/05/07/11/Fl...422&feedID=704


Last edited by FreshPerspective: 05-09-2011 at 01:27 AM.
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Old
05-07-2011, 01:17 AM
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SeanL44
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Would you have rather he said "Yea Boucher is clearly the reason we lost, what an awful awful goalie he is. And Bob? What a bust, can't believe he didn't carry us"

When the Flyers play normally, an average goalie is fine. When they play like ****, like they have in this series and in the past 4 months, then and only then do they rely on big saves.

So no, I would not fault goaltending. The team in front of the goalies played like ****, if they played like they should have played then it wouldn't have been an issue.

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05-07-2011, 01:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanL44 View Post
Would you have rather he said "Yea Boucher is clearly the reason we lost, what an awful awful goalie he is. And Bob? What a bust, can't believe he didn't carry us"

When the Flyers play normally, an average goalie is fine. When they play like ****, like they have in this series and in the past 4 months, then and only then do they rely on big saves.

So no, I would not fault goaltending. The team in front of the goalies played like ****, if they played like they should have played then it wouldn't have been an issue.
He's calling out the D though..does he mention names...no but he's focusing solely on the D with his comments so that is the issue I have when it comes to the argument about not throwing people under the bus....

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05-07-2011, 01:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
He's calling out the D though..does he mention names...no but he's focusing solely on the D with his comments so that is the issue I have when it comes to the argument about not throwing people under the bus....
The D played like a bunch of **** heads! Of course he should call out the D! If they had played with any integrity then our goaltending woes wouldn't have been as exaggerated as they were.

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05-07-2011, 01:32 AM
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Originally Posted by SeanL44 View Post
The D played like a bunch of **** heads! Of course he should call out the D! If they had played with any integrity then our goaltending woes wouldn't have been as exaggerated as they were.
But people say he doesn't call out anybody and clearly he is calling out his top four so that is BS. Not denying the D crapped the bed just that I don't like him calling that out alone and then saying the goaltending had no bearing on us faltering in these playoffs when it clearly did. Our D has to be flawless for us to win...sorry in the playoffs that rarely happens and the lack of shutouts all year pretty much suggested we couldn't be even with our supposed stacked D.

Fact is we weren't stacked afterall and our goaltending couldn't steal games or be the last line of defense. Last year was an anomaly to get as far as we did with 4 D and avg goaltending. Apparently he expected the same this year by throwing our 4 D men under the bus...

Quote:
But other guys, four of those guys have a lot of playoff experience and they didn’t play the way we needed to play.

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05-07-2011, 01:42 AM
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I think this is just him covering his ass.

Yeah, the defense certainly didn't play up to the level you'd expect from them, even without Pronger.

But by taking the blame away from goaltending to defense, he is also taking the blame away from himself.

If he were to say goaltending cost them the series, then it would be directly his fault. This team obviously lacked goaltending going into the season, and many people from writers, to fans, to people in other organizations said that it would eventually cost them. Yet he continued to deny that by not addressing it when he had the opportunity to.

By saying defense didn't play well enough, he is saying that he can say that they had the personal, but they didn't play up to the level they should have. Hense, its not his fault.

Just damage control.

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05-07-2011, 01:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coppy View Post
I think this is just him covering his ass.

Yeah, the defense certainly didn't play up to the level you'd expect from them, even without Pronger.

But by taking the blame away from goaltending to defense, he is also taking the blame away from himself.

If he were to say goaltending cost them the series, then it would be directly his fault. This team obviously lacked goaltending going into the season, and many people from writers, to fans, to people in other organizations said that it would eventually cost them. Yet he continued to deny that by not addressing it when he had the opportunity to.

By saying defense didn't play well enough, he is saying that he can say that they had the personal, but they didn't play up to the level they should have. Hense, its not his fault.

Just damage control.
^^^^^DING DING DING

Give this man a cupie doll for seeing it for what it is...it is what it is..CYA!

Also this comment is just pure denial...

Quote:
“I don’t think we can fault our goaltending at any point in the series,”

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05-07-2011, 01:50 AM
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Boston was absolutely the better team, during the regular season and the playoffs we did not match up well against them anywhere...We had problems on Defense, offense, and in goal.We played our best game in game 2 and still got beat, that pretty much says it all.Boston should be very proud of the way their club redeemed themselves after last years melt down...We had plenty of scoring chances during the series and could not take advantage of it, tons of missed chances by some of our skilled shooters.....Such is hockey.

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05-07-2011, 02:05 AM
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I didn't like what Homer had to say, but I understand it a bit. And no, average goaltending isn't good enough for this team to win a cup even when the defense plays up to it's capabilities. Eventually letting in 1-2 softies will catch up to any team, regardless of who is on their back 6.

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05-07-2011, 02:09 AM
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2011 brings the Holmgren era into it's fifth year. Before that, it was 19 years of Bobby Clarke.

So many competitive squads. So many fixable flaws. So many close calls.

As stated so eloquently by another poster last night - it's long past time that this organization existentially and spiritually divorce itself from 1975.


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05-07-2011, 02:13 AM
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I'll likely be in the minority in this thread, but I agree with Homer. We would have lost this series even if we had Kiprusoff in net. Other than game 2, the team looked completely overmatched in every aspect of the game. Goaltending was not the reason we lost this series.

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05-07-2011, 02:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silver surfer View Post
I'll likely be in the minority in this thread, but I agree with Homer. We still would have lost this series even if we had Kiprusoff in net. Other than game 2, the team looked completely outmatched in almost every aspect of the game. Goaltending was not the reason we lost this series.
The playoffs is about momentum..if we had a goalie that could steal games and be the last line of defense when the D is not up to par then it helps the team gain confidence and they have a better chance of overcoming hiccups that occur in a series. We didn't have that and thus to claim goaltending had no bearing on the outcome of this series is to be in total denial...

We got swept...goaltending not doing their part is def a factor....thus he shouldn't be blowing it off whether he believes what he's actually saying or not.

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05-07-2011, 02:19 AM
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Honestly everybody played like ****. I swear Versteeg is a cancer on the ice. As soon as we aquired him, we started to suck. When the Leafs got rid of him, they started playing good and almost making playoffs. We need a #1 goalie. He does not want to say goaltending was the problem because he didnt address it in the offseason. He said the D was the problem because he upgraded them in the offseason. He is pretty much covering up for something he did not address.

If we dont get a #1 goalie, I will rage. Bob as backup. Also the turnovers by the D were god awful and led to a lot of goals against.

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05-07-2011, 02:22 AM
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Holmgren also dubbed water "wet."

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05-07-2011, 02:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
The playoffs is about momentum..if we had a goalie that could steal games and be the last line of defense when the D is not up to par then it helps the team gain confidence and they have a better chance of overcoming hiccups that occur in a series. We didn't have that and thus to claim goaltending had no bearing on the outcome of this series is to be in total denial...

We got swept...goaltending not doing their part is def a factor....thus he shouldn't be blowing it off whether he believes what he's actually saying or not.
The way the team played, no goalie could have stole that series. We looked slow at times. We looked disinterested. They beat us to almost every puck. We couldn't win a faceoff. A different guy between the pipes doesn't change that.

You're obviously pissed about being swept. We all are. But if you take some time to consider his comments instead of reacting emotionally, you'll see that he's right.

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05-07-2011, 02:29 AM
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Paul Holmgren is Chris Shafer. Mystery solved.

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05-07-2011, 02:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silver surfer View Post
The way the team played, no goalie could have stole that series. We looked slow at times. We looked disinterested. They beat us to almost every puck. We couldn't win a faceoff. A different guy between the pipes doesn't change that.

You're obviously pissed about being swept. We all are. But if you take some time to consider his comments instead of reacting emotionally, you'll see that he's right.
No I'm responding to his comments logically. There is no logical explanation for completely denying the goaltending had no bearing on this series and heaping all the blame on the D. There is nothing emotional about that..it's a logical deduction given that the goalie didn't hold their end of the bargain by being the last line of D for a game or two at the least.

Nobody is saying the goalie had to steal the series but a legit goalie can steal a game or two and that makes the world of difference in a series..the team would have more incentive to respond and have a better chance of overcoming the slow starts etc. Again in the playoffs momentum changes from game to game ..period to period etc. The goaltending provided no momentum on it's own practically...you need exceptional goaltending to reach that end goal no matter what..we don't have it and Holmgren needs to take responsibility not deflect it. There is no denying he feels the need to engage in self-defense given what just transpired....although Snider would never think of canning him ....Holmgren is def engaging in self-preservation. There is no other reason for his remarks...

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05-07-2011, 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by silver surfer View Post
The way the team played, no goalie could have stole that series. We looked slow at times. We looked disinterested. They beat us to almost every puck. We couldn't win a faceoff. A different guy between the pipes doesn't change that.

You're obviously pissed about being swept. We all are. But if you take some time to consider his comments instead of reacting emotionally, you'll see that he's right.
Goaltending was part of the problem, not a symptom of the problem.

Better goaltending and we may win game 2. Game 3 may go differently if we get avstop on the second goal.

Disregarding that fact, Brian Boucher isn't going to lead you to a championship. I don't care how deep you are, and that is on Holmgren. Unfortunately, this was an obvious problem 9 months ago.

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05-07-2011, 02:41 AM
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I blame myself; I forgot to jinx Boston by betting on them in vbookie.

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05-07-2011, 02:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Goaltending was part of the problem, not a symptom of the problem.

Better goaltending and we may win game 2. Game 3 may go differently if we get avstop on the second goal.

Disregarding that fact, Brian Boucher isn't going to lead you to a championship. I don't care how deep you are, and that is on Holmgren. Unfortunately, this was an obvious problem 9 months ago.
No argument at all about Boosh. I'd like an upgrade in net as much as the next fan. Simply observing that pointing the finger squarely at the goalies for losing this series as some seem to be suggesting isn't correct.

Our goalies were definitely a part of the reason we got swept. But we wouldn't have won that series with a better goalie the way the rest of the team played.

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05-07-2011, 02:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silver surfer View Post
No argument at all about Boosh. I'd like an upgrade in net as much as the next fan. Simply observing that pointing the finger squarely at the goalies for losing this series as some seem to be suggesting isn't correct.

Our goalies were definitely a part of the reason we got swept. But we wouldn't have won that series with a better goalie the way the rest of the team played.
Who is suggesting pointing the finger squarely at the goalies...I haven't seen anybody doing that. We have said they are part of the problem..Holmgren is insinuating for whatever reason it had no bearing when it did. That is the argument. You are erecting a strawman by saying "some" are suggesting it's all the goalies fault when not one person in this thread so far has suggested as much. I don't know about other threads if that is what you are referring to when you say "some."

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05-07-2011, 02:54 AM
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And yet he doesn't fault goaling. My ****ing ass Homer. MY ****ING ASS. Get a real goalie, not someone average, someone good and proven. ****ING DO IT.

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Old
05-07-2011, 02:54 AM
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I dont think homer is being straight forward. When he says goaltending wasn't the problem, he is trying to convey that the entire team played badly and that goaltending is "a function of the team", which indirectly means he realizes that the goaltending was bad.

Listen, this team needs a starting goaltender, everyone knows it, all of us want one. However, even if it had been Vokoun in net for us, we still probably would have lost, because regardless of goaltending, you can't win a series when the entire team decides they don't want to show up. It, sadly, probably wouldn't have made a difference this year, and THAT is what is concerning to me.

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05-07-2011, 02:57 AM
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Originally Posted by silver surfer View Post
No argument at all about Boosh. I'd like an upgrade in net as much as the next fan. Simply observing that pointing the finger squarely at the goalies for losing this series as some seem to be suggesting isn't correct.

Our goalies were definitely a part of the reason we got swept. But we wouldn't have won that series with a better goalie the way the rest of the team played.
We would still be playing though... Everything is different if you come to Boston 1-1.

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05-07-2011, 02:58 AM
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Here is a similar point I've been trying to make

Quote:
Again: The team wasn't nearly good enough in front of Boucher or Bobrovksy. But it's also hard to gauge the impact that wobbly goaltending has on a team's confidence. Just as great goaltending can erase mistakes and allow players to relax and takes some chances - witness the Bruins in all four of these games - shaky play in the net can undermine everyone.

Read more: http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/...#ixzz1LeCIhefw

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