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A Walsh type President/GM

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Old
05-07-2011, 01:52 PM
  #1
gotmonte
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A Walsh type President/GM

I was thinking today about how the Knicks were crap for so long and then Walsh came in and really figured a way to get WAAAAY under the cap and had a game plan. A plan that did not deviate either (except being FORCED to TRADE for Carmelo vs. Signing him to just money).

It would be awesome if the Rangers could finally dump Sather and get a man who comes in with a PLAN. With a strategy. With the idea of dumping players with high cap hits (yes Sather is actually pretty good at it himself, but he was the one to GIVE them that contract!).

Yes, I do understand NBA is much easier to get rid of high cap hits versus NHL. But Sather and ALL OTHER NYR Presidents/GM's have done the same thing. Haphazardly just looked to the following years UFA class and try and build their team with whatever was in the UFA THAT year. We dont look ahead to following years ufa classes and try and systematically draft/trade/sign a TEAM.

We just say, "Hey this player is available. He is good. Lets sign him. And lets sign this guy, oh and lets sign this undraft player that just played well. And lets just draft whatever is in front of us.

They dont TRY AND MAKE A TEAM. We have been told New York can not go through a rebuild. We wont except a losing team. Hell, thats ALL we have been dealing with, with the exception of 94, 97 really. If Walsh was allowed to BUILD a team, why is Sather not allowed. He IS allowed. He just doesnt believe in it.

Lets draw a stratgey out. Look at what will possibly be players available not just NOW, but later. Lets first get rid of these cap hits, not sign ANYONE that is the best in the UFA this year, keep the cap low, and if you can, sign a RFA that you think a team is up against the cap already and couldnt match.

Listen, I am NO GM/President. But we need to have someone that is like Walsh.

Im tired of this crap already

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05-07-2011, 01:54 PM
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P.S. Yes I do understand about the Defense. I know we have a pretty good top 4

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05-07-2011, 01:56 PM
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I have a hard time visualizing a scenario in which Sather leaves any way other than of his own will. The good news there is that he is about to turn 68 years old.

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05-07-2011, 02:40 PM
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The Knicks now have 2 stars,an aging PG,no draft picks and no cap space. Now what?

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05-07-2011, 02:41 PM
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Yeah for some reason, whatever is in Sathers Cigars that he smokes, he MUST be giving some to Dolan and his stupid musical band the idiot has

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05-07-2011, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
The Knicks now have 2 stars,an aging PG,no draft picks and no cap space. Now what?
Knicks will have about 20 mill in cap space after this coming season.

From that point we can sign some players because it will be like a Miami Heat situation where a bunch of players will want to sign because they think it will be a chance to win a championship.

There is no debating the fact that the Knicks are a million times better off now then a couple years ago.

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05-07-2011, 03:11 PM
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Messier will be the next GM... BET ON IT.

When Sather is ready he will take the sole title of President and hand the team over to his greatest student...

This is so clearly obvious and will be the case unless some other team steals GM Messier away.... which is unlikely imo.

The stage is set. I am willing to give Messier a shot, despite his inexperience as GM. He's earned it in my book. If he wants a shot, he's got it. All his buds are retired so there's no risk of peppering the roster with his guys, however I would REALLY love to see what a Mark Messier team would look like. I would fully expect a tough, gritty, motivated team. My only real concern out of the gate would be his choice for coach...#99s for the asking.

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05-07-2011, 03:40 PM
  #8
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In theory, everyone is in favor of everything you are saying as a general concept. But as soon as a player is available, everyone wants to acquire him. Then people complain that UFAs are overpaid, which they always are.

And most importantly, nobody wants to have a long-term plan. Everyone wants to make sure that the team wins their one extra playoff game or series next season.

If you ever suggest trading away something helps us next year, but not in the long-term, there is always outrage. People have a hard time even thinking beyond next year. Trying to explain that something may be useful in a few years is like talking to a wall, The response is always the same: "But we will suffer this year if we do this."

There's never anything beyond this year.





Quote:
Originally Posted by gotmonte View Post
I was thinking today about how the Knicks were crap for so long and then Walsh came in and really figured a way to get WAAAAY under the cap and had a game plan. A plan that did not deviate either (except being FORCED to TRADE for Carmelo vs. Signing him to just money).

It would be awesome if the Rangers could finally dump Sather and get a man who comes in with a PLAN. With a strategy. With the idea of dumping players with high cap hits (yes Sather is actually pretty good at it himself, but he was the one to GIVE them that contract!).

Yes, I do understand NBA is much easier to get rid of high cap hits versus NHL. But Sather and ALL OTHER NYR Presidents/GM's have done the same thing. Haphazardly just looked to the following years UFA class and try and build their team with whatever was in the UFA THAT year. We dont look ahead to following years ufa classes and try and systematically draft/trade/sign a TEAM.

We just say, "Hey this player is available. He is good. Lets sign him. And lets sign this guy, oh and lets sign this undraft player that just played well. And lets just draft whatever is in front of us.

They dont TRY AND MAKE A TEAM. We have been told New York can not go through a rebuild. We wont except a losing team. Hell, thats ALL we have been dealing with, with the exception of 94, 97 really. If Walsh was allowed to BUILD a team, why is Sather not allowed. He IS allowed. He just doesnt believe in it.

Lets draw a stratgey out. Look at what will possibly be players available not just NOW, but later. Lets first get rid of these cap hits, not sign ANYONE that is the best in the UFA this year, keep the cap low, and if you can, sign a RFA that you think a team is up against the cap already and couldnt match.

Listen, I am NO GM/President. But we need to have someone that is like Walsh.

Im tired of this crap already

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Old
05-07-2011, 04:35 PM
  #9
Kel Varnsen
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We're doing better than the knicks have been doing.
We have a brighter future than the knicks have right now.
The NBA is a stupid league in that the games are basically played on paper. Not the case in the NHL.

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05-07-2011, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by genericnyrusername View Post
We're doing better than the knicks have been doing.
We have a brighter future than the knicks have right now.
The NBA is a stupid league in that the games are basically played on paper. Not the case in the NHL.
If you dont like Basketball. Thats fine. No issues there. But if you are suggesting that the Knicks are in worse situation than the rangers are in, than I am sorry to say your wrong.

What has the rangers done and the knicks havent? Rangers finished 8th, knicks, what? 6th? Knicks got swept but NOT by a huge margin. Games 1 and 2 lost with a COMBINED 5 points. Rangers won ONE playoff game.

Knicks have a VERY bright future with Amare, and Carmelo. Two BIG TIME SUPERSTARS and a great albeit aging point guard in Chauncy. Walsh has a plan. He is STICKING to the plan.

To the other poster who said basically its too hard to put a game plan forth because the fans want to have something NOW. I can understand your thinking. But the Knicks fans want the same thing. They are as passionate for their team as we are for ours. But they endured (albeit griped during) torturous seasons only to now have a VERY bright future. They have scorers. Something that puts fans in the seats. We dont have scorers *except for Gabby who I believe will regain his flavor for scoring*.

We can go through crap seasons... hell we HAVE been going through crap seasons. Last year? Missed by a shoot out goal but missed for the 8TH SPOT. This year? JUST squeaked in to the 8TH SPOT only to get kicked out of the playoffs (yes we played decent but just had NO ONE TO TURN TO TO SCORE).

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05-07-2011, 05:40 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by genericnyrusername View Post
We're doing better than the knicks have been doing.
We have a brighter future than the knicks have right now.
The NBA is a stupid league in that the games are basically played on paper. Not the case in the NHL.
Disagree. The Knicks are a guard away from completing their own "big 3." Two of the best in the game will be available in 2012. Assuming one of those 2 guys comes to NY and they get a big man and a few other bench upgrades, they are easily to be considered a championship contender.

I don't think if Richards came here this summer we can call this team a championship contender without adding another scoring winger.

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05-07-2011, 05:43 PM
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You just saying that there isn't a plan ongoing for the Rangers doesn't make it true.

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05-07-2011, 06:05 PM
  #13
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You just saying that there isn't a plan ongoing for the Rangers doesn't make it true.
Exactly. The plan has been and will continue to be build from within. What's the knicks grand plan? Sign big name free agents whenever you can? Does that really count as a master plan that only a true sports genius could stick to? If so you would have loved pre-lockout Sather.

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05-07-2011, 06:44 PM
  #14
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Originally Posted by gotmonte View Post
It would be awesome if the Rangers could finally dump Sather and get a man who comes in with a PLAN. With a strategy. With the idea of dumping players with high cap hits (yes Sather is actually pretty good at it himself, but he was the one to GIVE them that contract!).

Lets draw a stratgey out. Look at what will possibly be players available not just NOW, but later. Lets first get rid of these cap hits, not sign ANYONE that is the best in the UFA this year, keep the cap low, and if you can, sign a RFA that you think a team is up against the cap already and couldnt match.
Sather can be criticized for a number of reasons, but not for the lack of planning. He's been rebuilding this team by promoting from within. He didn't move Dubinsky for Heatley. He didn't move a number of assets for Kovalchuk when Atlanta was holding their fire-sale. He made some risky signings that didn't work out, but he's gotten out of them, which is what ultimately matters.

There is a system in place. Torts has been preaching it since he took over for Renney. Tom himself built the foundation we've been relying on post-lockout. An approach that has been a lot more rewarding than our past ways.

The current state of the organization is moving forward in the right direction. The few holes we do have on our roster are unfortunately rather difficult to fill, but I absolutely trust Sather can fill them via free-agency and some other possible routes.

We have a number of talented kids in our system which are tilted more towards the offensive spectrum of things.

This last season is a good example of how much depth we really do have. Go back a few season's, and there's no chance in hell we make the playoffs with the amount of injuries we had to overcome. Credit Sather for that. Hate the *******, but let's not criticize the guy for the hell of it, which is the feeling I'm getting from this Walsh-related thread.

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05-08-2011, 11:58 PM
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So, Sather the last 3 years has had a sense of direction makes up for his LACK OF ANY RATIONAL THOUGHT SINCE HIS HIRING, WHAT 10-11 YEARS AGO?!


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Sather can be criticized for a number of reasons, but not for the lack of planning. He's been rebuilding this team by promoting from within. He didn't move Dubinsky for Heatley. He didn't move a number of assets for Kovalchuk when Atlanta was holding their fire-sale. He made some risky signings that didn't work out, but he's gotten out of them, which is what ultimately matters.

There is a system in place. Torts has been preaching it since he took over for Renney. Tom himself built the foundation we've been relying on post-lockout. An approach that has been a lot more rewarding than our past ways.

The current state of the organization is moving forward in the right direction. The few holes we do have on our roster are unfortunately rather difficult to fill, but I absolutely trust Sather can fill them via free-agency and some other possible routes.

We have a number of talented kids in our system which are tilted more towards the offensive spectrum of things.

This last season is a good example of how much depth we really do have. Go back a few season's, and there's no chance in hell we make the playoffs with the amount of injuries we had to overcome. Credit Sather for that. Hate the *******, but let's not criticize the guy for the hell of it, which is the feeling I'm getting from this Walsh-related thread.

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05-09-2011, 01:46 AM
  #16
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Originally Posted by gotmonte View Post
So, Sather the last 3 years has had a sense of direction makes up for his LACK OF ANY RATIONAL THOUGHT SINCE HIS HIRING, WHAT 10-11 YEARS AGO?!
Sather for the last 7 years, not 3. Yes, the empty cupboard was his fault and yes, the plan is a slow-moving one because we've been competitive since the lockout. However, you can see a change in the way the entire organization was operated starting post-season, pre-draft in 2004. There's been a plan here. Sather's been at the helm, but a lot of it was formulated first by Renney and Maloney, then later by Clark and still later by Tortorella. Plus Jim Schoenfeld's pretty much been involved throughout. Because we were competitive in 05-06, it changed the philosophy for the NHL roster, but what was going on in the background never really changed. And even then, Sather has pretty much refused to trade youth for vets except for one example, and that involved trading youth that had no future in the organization anyway (Dawes/Prucha).

People's judgment gets clouded by their disgust, which I share, of Sather's UFA signings. The Gomez/Drury summer was a mistake and one that my father and I still believe was an accident (as in, he never expected that both would sign here). Redden was a complete misjudgment. I'm not going to fault Sather too much on Kotalik or Frolov, especially not Kotalik. There was no indication, unlike with Redden and to some extent Frolov, that Kotalik was going to suddenly fall off the map. He had a typical year just the prior year. Outside of that, the organization is pretty well run.

I'm not an apologist for Sather. He's made some pretty poor decisions in his UFA signings. When he makes a mistake, I'm not going to cut him slack (he should have given Korpikoski more time; Montoya was totally a panic move from Blackburn's injury; why is it that we've developed very little 1st line talent?). But to ignore the good things that have happened over the last 7 years is as bad as ignoring the mistakes that he's made. At this point, let's see out what he's built here.


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05-09-2011, 02:07 AM
  #17
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So, Sather the last 3 years has had a sense of direction makes up for his LACK OF ANY RATIONAL THOUGHT SINCE HIS HIRING, WHAT 10-11 YEARS AGO?!
What he did or didn't do a decade ago doesn't affect the state of the organization today. I'm a firm believer of that old saying If it aint broken don't fix it. He's managed to rebuild this team while staying slightly competitive. Team is in a great position to contend with 2-3 changes.

Gomez
Kotalik
Brashear

Redden

Gomez was flipped for McDonagh, which made the signing a blessing in disguise.
Kotalik was flipped for Prust. See above.
Redden has actually been a solid addition to Hartford, according to guys like McDonagh.
Brashear had a guaranteed contract(35+) and was moved. (Sather kind of ****ed up that move by keeping worthless White on the roster too long).

What's left? Drury.

It costs peanuts to buy out serviceable players like Wolski(who was swapped for another somewhat overpriced veteran, Rozsival, who has another year left on his contract) and maybe Avery. Same Avery that Sather didn't overpay for. We got him for 1/2 price for practically his entire contract.

Again, I don't like Sather one bit and have been one of many calling for his termination (which will never happen). But I'm mature enough to overlook the mental-farts he's blessed us with in the past. He has a great opportunity to redeem himself if he can find the right pieces to the puzzle he's almosted completed.

There are gears in motion that shouldn't be misdirected. A new GM and his style could very well revamp this entire organization -- and not for the better. Let's be a tad more patient (lord knows we've been just that with him at the helm) before we tar&feather him. I want to see his plan come to fruition. The team will naturally improve year after year if they remain together, considering most players are nowhere near their prime.

With Richards+PMD/1LW, I think we make it to the Semi's. Year after, we'll be a legit contenders for quite some time.

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05-09-2011, 02:12 AM
  #18
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Boom Boom, you and I are on the same page buddy. Good read.

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05-09-2011, 07:30 AM
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Knicks will have about 20 mill in cap space after this coming season.

From that point we can sign some players because it will be like a Miami Heat situation where a bunch of players will want to sign because they think it will be a chance to win a championship.

There is no debating the fact that the Knicks are a million times better off now then a couple years ago.
The NBA CBA expires this July. No one knows what will be in the next CBA.

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05-09-2011, 11:34 AM
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Exactly. The plan has been and will continue to be build from within. What's the knicks grand plan? Sign big name free agents whenever you can? Does that really count as a master plan that only a true sports genius could stick to? If so you would have loved pre-lockout Sather.
Are you talking about Sather? And it's not pre-lockout...Boogaard, Frolov, Drury, Redden, Gaborik, Gomez, Kotalik, Brashear...all POST lockout.

Walsh did a good job cleaning up the toxic Isiah Thomas mess. Glen Sather is still trying to clean up his own mess.


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05-09-2011, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by genericnyrusername View Post
Exactly. The plan has been and will continue to be build from within. What's the knicks grand plan? Sign big name free agents whenever you can? Does that really count as a master plan that only a true sports genius could stick to? If so you would have loved pre-lockout Sather.
How is that not what Sather has done?

You can't compare team building in the NHL and team building in the NHL. One player can carry a team in the NBA. The draft doesn't mean as much. You're basically only playing 9 players or so in the NBA.

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05-09-2011, 11:56 AM
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How is that not what Sather has done?

You can't compare team building in the NHL and team building in the NHL. One player can carry a team in the NBA. The draft doesn't mean as much. You're basically only playing 9 players or so in the NBA.
Great post. And in the NBA, bringing in a Carmelo Anthony actually gives you a better chance of landing a Chris Paul, a Dwight Howard or a Deron Williams down the road.

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05-09-2011, 12:03 PM
  #23
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Are you talking about Sather? And it's not pre-lockout...Boogaard, Frolov, Drury, Redden, Gaborik, Gomez, Kotalik, Brashear...all POST lockout.

Walsh did a good job cleaning up the toxic Isiah Thomas mess. Glen Sather is still trying to clean up his own mess.
Boogaard was overpaid 500 thousand. Big whoop. Seriously people who complain about this deal have no concept of NHL economics.

Fro was a one year stop-gap deal.

We didn't expect to get both Dru and Gomez.

Gaborik was a smart free agent deal. He was down this year but he's still a gamer, don't forget about last year. He's got true skill.

Redden was a desperate move, his only real mistake post lockout. When you're a big spending club this will happen every once in a while. We buried it anyway.

Kotalik fell apart, not Sather's fault. Wasn't a huge contract.

Brashear again he's making peanuts. Get over it.

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How is that not what Sather has done?

You can't compare team building in the NHL and team building in the NHL. One player can carry a team in the NBA. The draft doesn't mean as much. You're basically only playing 9 players or so in the NBA.
Which is why this thread's concept is a poor attempt to take another undeserved and unnecessary shot at Glen Sather. At least we didn't get SWEPT in round one.

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05-09-2011, 12:15 PM
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At least we didn't get SWEPT in round one.
A great testament to the GM.

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05-09-2011, 12:22 PM
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Boogaard was overpaid 500 thousand. Big whoop. Seriously people who complain about this deal have no concept of NHL economics.
He is a one dimensional player who had concussion concerns and got a 4 year deal. That has nothing to do with NHL economics that has to do win an inability to evaluate players.

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Fro was a one year stop-gap deal.
Again, it was Sather spending what little money he had.

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We didn't expect to get both Dru and Gomez.
Not sure what this is supposed to mean. I don't really care what he expected, I care what he did. And what he did was pay two guys who aren't elite players, elite-player money.

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Gaborik was a smart free agent deal. He was down this year but he's still a gamer, don't forget about last year. He's got true skill.
He is and was an injury concern who averages 51 points a season for his career.

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Redden was a desperate move, his only real mistake post lockout. When you're a big spending club this will happen every once in a while. We buried it anyway.
Every once in a while?

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Kotalik fell apart, not Sather's fault. Wasn't a huge contract.
Another example of his inability to evaluate talent.

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Brashear again he's making peanuts. Get over it.
Another example of his inability to evaluate talent.


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Originally Posted by genericnyrusername View Post
Which is why this thread's concept is a poor attempt to take another undeserved and unnecessary shot at Glen Sather.
He does make it pretty easy to do.

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